Glittering Gems of Hatred

Post by **King of Creation** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:02 pm

[ Community -> Article ]

No Mutants Allowed has started up a 3-part feature called "Glittering Gems of Hatred." It's a short history and examination of why we are like we are.<blockquote>We've heard the same tired arguments over and
over again. "You guys will never be happy with any Fallout sequel."
"You guys are just an angry elite with no sense of reality." "You guys
just want it to be 1998 all over again."


There are some things about such statements that can be debated.
But too much of the popular opinion on Fallout fans is based on
hearsay, falsehoods and downright bullshit. We'll always enjoy our
position as some of the most hardass fans out there, but it's time to
dispell some of the worst falsehoods.



We at NMA decided to write <a target="_self" href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=34542">an article about this</a>, entitled Glittering Gems of Hatred: Eleven angry guys on a website.
It will be released in three parts over the coming week. This week's
first installment is a bit dry, and serves as the set-up for the rest.
It is a history of the Fallout fanbase with a focus on the interaction
between fans and devs.


Coming weekend the meat of the article will be released, which will
talk about Fallout fans' reputation as a bitter bunch and will take a
look at the dangers of being disloyal to a franchise. </blockquote>
<a href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=34542" target="_self">Check it out</a>! Thanks to Kharn for letting me know.

Mutateman · Post by **Mutateman** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:37 pm

If you haven't read this yet, you need to. It is very, very good. Even if you 'lived through' the events mentioned int he article, you should still take a gander at it.

sodash · Post by **sodash** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:43 pm

Greetings,
I m not read the article yet, but feel very happy to see that fallout comunity keep mouving and evolving. observing world oround us, and defining ourselfs, we create a solid ground for changing foolishones in his attempt to destroy the magic of thrue RPG-ing.

my felow commrades, change is good thing. the new Galaktica episodes bring me back to the childhood, and keep me breathles all four ours ( pilots ). and i dont feel insalt in the one second. like when i read the "Y: The Last Man". Entrtaiment industry is evolving, and we r must help foolishones in meaking his steps in the right way.

keep up the good thing

(as you see english is not my cup of tee.)

PsychoSniper · Post by **PsychoSniper** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:37 pm

"You guys are just an angry elite with no sense of reality."

^^^^^^^^^^

Thats mainly NMA, we're just the assholes.

This history will take examples out of NMA's archives to illustrate its points, because most if not all of the other sites and/or their archives are long gone.

What about DAC einstein ?

Tactics, a game that broke Interplay's record for most pre-ordered game, did not turn out as succesful as Interplay had wished, partially due to the high number of returns.

We buy shit, we return it.

frissy · Post by **frissy** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:07 pm

Sawyer expressed his opinion on this as follows; "Look, man, seriously: there are a lot of people with really useful ideas here, at NMA, and at DAC. (...) When a person's only function seems to be to complain, their feedback becomes kind of useless because it all seems like a vendetta"

Ohh, and have people actually learned from that comment? No. I find it amusing that when Bethesda ignores the feedback it's BAD BAD BAD. Even though our "own" guy said the same...

Vendetta..hmm...no, more like Total Recall!

PsychoSniper · Post by **PsychoSniper** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:11 pm

Just more proof that Bethesda is full of shit.

And another example of NMA feeling like they are FO, fanwise.

frissy · Post by **frissy** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:24 pm

As for making a writing that actually has some meaning (as this one does) I feel it's quite stupid to leave out a link to DAC, when they clearly mention it. Specially when they link to every single thread on their own forum.

I'm not saying they should link directly to threads, but they could at least link to the site itself. If you wanto to create a text with proper references...well use them...not just your own ref's that might be bias...(if you really really want to go into that territory)

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:41 pm

dac is the secret kingdom. our time will come when the world will be a better place and people say 'those dicks at dac' instead of 'those mongs at nma'

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:16 am

PsychoSniper wrote:And another example of NMA feeling like they are FO, fanwise.

Yeah, in hindsight you may have a point, but I did stipulate that I would link back to NMA for reference in the intro, which means it isn't any kind of glaring omission, just a conscious choice.

I wanted to link back to DaC for the Tactics bit since I can remember you guys doing a better job than NMA, but your archives don't go back that far. If they did I would've reffed a few, but from Tactics onwards DaC became more content-community while NMA became more news, and the latter is more easy to reference, the former almost completely impossible.

So yes, I did think of DaC on several points and did not skip them from any inherent feeling of superiority. It could be argued that it's a case of omission, and it's a shame it didn't occur to me or the admins to fix it. I'd fix it now, but I'm planning to do a revision once the entire thing is published, because revising mid-publication is stupid.

So sorry if it came off the wrong way. Don't get bogged down on it, though, this partition shit has got to stop.

UNLESS you think the history is actually factually wrong at points because it misses important points from DaC's direction. I think it's still factual despite being based mostly on the history of Interplay and NMA, because no we've always moved somewhat in the same direction, with the exception of Van Buren in which case I noted DaC's opinion by saying people thought releasing the design docs was beating a dead horse.

But if I missed anything important, do tell.

Ohh, and have people actually learned from that comment? No. I find it amusing that when Bethesda ignores the feedback it's BAD BAD BAD. Even though our "own" guy said the same...

I don't think you were around, then, but read the ref and soak up the context of that remark; JE Sawyer was saying that there can be a lot of useful info gained when discussing the game with the fans.

Bethesda hasn't even discussed the game with the fans, so the quote doesn't apply to them.

sodash · Post by **sodash** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:41 am

after releasing VB design doc. i was feel like the same dead hors.

so, so... so hopeles....

PsychoSniper · Post by **PsychoSniper** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:44 am

Kharn wrote:
Ohh, and have people actually learned from that comment? No. I find it amusing that when Bethesda ignores the feedback it's BAD BAD BAD. Even though our "own" guy said the same...
I don't think you were around, then, but read the ref and soak up the context of that remark; JE Sawyer was saying that there can be a lot of useful info gained when discussing the game with the fans.

Bethesda hasn't even discussed the game with the fans, so the quote doesn't apply to them.

Exellent point.

Bethesda needs to stop pretending to care what the fans think, as that GLARING fact makes it clear they dont give a rats ass what we think.

They make crap, and expect us to buy it.

Sorry Buckwheet, but if FO3 is made craptacular (somehow, I see something like FO:Craptics, but with a more medevil feel to it... ) we wont BOTHER to buy it, we'll DL it.

Then larf at the fools that think its a good game.

Oh, and Pete 'heat up ass' Hines .... if you or your PR team are reading this, yes we WILL tear FO3 apart because if its a disgrace to the FO name and the genere in genreal, we WILL tear it apart.

sodash · Post by **sodash** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:03 am

oo my frend, be shoure in that. pete read.
his ass is on fire.

PsychoSniper · Post by **PsychoSniper** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:17 am

I (and almost every single member of DAC and NMA, the Codex, and other sites) doubt that Pete reads this, or otherwise cares.

Odds are they have one guy who'se job is to sort the goatse to make sure nothing gets leaked.

If Im wrong, Id be glad to be proven such, but so far all we have is a LONG time of being ignored apparently.

frissy · Post by **frissy** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:13 pm

Kharn wrote:
"I don't think you were around, then..."

Bethesda hasn't even discussed the game with the fans, so the quote doesn't apply to them.

Actually I was around.

But, you are right about them not discussing it with the fanbase, so it doesn't really apply to them, but then again...if they would open their mouths it would apply. I hardly think that the fanbase would comment in a velvety way... That would just mean that whatever they would say or suggest would pretty much be flamed beyond hell and be pretty pointelss to their work.

If they would say that FO3 will be TB/Isometric/SPECIAL we would still flame them...

I would just love to see the skill-discussion flame up again...merging melee with throw...ahhh...memories.

Question (just for kicks): IF Beth asked the fanbase for suggestions/feedback on something, what would it be?

Haris · Post by **Haris** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:56 pm

I dont like Kharn, Rosh or Nma and i can hardly wait untill rest of them leave the site by getting addicted to wow, but the article was still fun to read.

PsychoSniper · Post by **PsychoSniper** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:53 pm

I'd say keep TB/Isometric/SPECIAL unalterd.

Keep the stats about the same, maybe tweak just a little bit (for more realism and choice, but only if those are relevent, and have multiple cases were they'd be useful)

Have the game be done in such a way that to do everything, you'd have to replay it at least 10 times with diffrent characther types, and even then you'd have to do even more replays with diffrent factions.

Have even more options in every conversation, one thing that would be cool to see added in IF DONE TO FIT THE FO THEME would be a few things from morrowind, such as taunting someone, buttering them up, or bribing them. But have it be dependent on speach charisma and reputation. If they dont know you, they'll tell you to fuck off (literly).

Also, have a decision to do more bad things.

Have the ability to mug someone if you choose to be a bad guy.

If you're in a deserted part of town, and see some chick, have the option to rape her, and or capture her as a slave (but DONT overdo it for the 'rapez chikz! factor, have it be part of the characther)

Have a similar number of options for good guy characthers, as well as a number of quests for diffrent characther types (Dr, Mr Fixit, rambo, science boy)

Have more factions of all types (something that morrowind did, but VERY poorley) but have conflict between them.

Have many quests be time dependent. No taking the quest, forgetting, wandering the wastes for ever, then completing it. You take too long, they're pissed you failed. (but have the option to decline some of them if you're busy, some you have to choose, tis called RP for a reason

)

Faction conflicts: As part of the timed quests bit.
An example of this would be the Gecko/Vault City conflict in FO2.

Two cities or factions are in conflict, you can broker peace, help one side, hurt one side, help both (so they slaughter eachother) hurt both ( soboth get wiped out) or broker peace. Or do nothing.
All choices affect the game and story.

Weapons: Have weapons limited. Make a 'speed run' type aquisition of powerful weapons harder
(for example, in FO you grab the riffle or SMG in V15, or get ther riffle off of Kenji, and later have a choice of a shotgun from Killian)
Admitidly, not the best of examples cause FO can potently be short depending on how you're playing it thru, but looking at Beth's other games, FO3 will be FUCKING HUGH (weather its a huge gem, or a huge pile of Bhrama dung is another question ..... )
It should be done in such a way that you slowley advance....

But NO autoleveling of random encounters and such.

You encounter the same thing weather you just started, have a Lvl99 cahracther, and have no party or a fuckin army. (this isnt oblivion, or Harris's shit afterall)

NON LINEAR GAMEPLAY.

Be able to do shit in all kinda orders, execpt quests and plots that are a later branch of something else. DONT do the shit in 'acts' like in Morrowind, becasue for all it's freedom, it wasnt truly non linear, as you actualy do the main quest in a straight line (do the spy shit for that dude in Balmora, do the ashlander shit, more spy shit and get corpus then get 'cured', become leader of the tribes and houses, then talk to vivic and beat the game)

It doesnt matter if you can do it in differnt ways, that's still linear, thats NOT FALLOUT.

Have multiple 'main' quests.

You get to choose whichever you want.

And that doesnt mean one ending (like in FO:Craptics, or VtM:Bloodlines) were you get to pick the ending, you have multiple diverse endings, some of which have jack shit to do with eachother.

Have the ability to start a faction, tho depending on stats and reputation it might flop.

Have the ability to take over any town in the game, depending on your skills (you could 'try' to do so in the first down you go to, but you'd just get shot, or jailed)

And most importantly of all ....... its gotta LOOK like fallout.

If they upgrade the graphics (which we know they're gona do) DONT ADD YOU OWN FUCKING 'KEWEL' TOUCHES.

DEATHCLAWS AINT HAIRY.

POWER ARMOR DOESNT HAVE FUCKING SPIKES LIKE SOMETHING FROM PREDATOR.

All that 'sensable' (to us) shit

Vehicles:

If it doesnt look '50s' like, dont do it.

HMMWV's are a bad idea. (FO:Craptics anyone ?)

Robot armies, and anything else from FO:Craptics are a BAD idea.

A good idea would be to expand the Pipboy2000. Dont turn it into that gay journal in morrowind, but rather make it a fully functional 'program', as it IS going to be a fucking computer game (well, we hope) use it as such.

Have the ability to do shit with the pip boy, and use it for quests. Have the ability to use it as a notebook, and type shit in for a journal, have addon slots (like the motion sensor) so you plug the addon in, and can use it that way.

The big thing: 3D

We know theres no getting around that, as un needed as it is.

Have the game locked in an isometric viewpoint in combat and normal actions.

Hell, just fucking lock it in isometric when in actual gameplay period.

SPECIAL: Keep it unchanged, SPECIAL is what makes FO special.

50's post appox retro future: Keep the futeristic but still 50's retro syle intact.

Hell, even better yet, hire former FO dev's as consultants, and LSITEN to them.

Layout: It should essently LOOK like the previous two games in the series, minus new options. The only diffrences should be newer graphics and such, tho if they were to somehow re-use the same 2D .FRM files and simply make an lot more (or redo the old ones, but in more detail) that would be even better.

When it all comes down to is this: It shouldnt feel that diffrent from the two real FO games.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:22 pm

3-part feature

Only 3 parts? That's not very NMAey.

It was a nice read though, I'm still waiting on KoC to finish his History of the System Wars.

Cthulhugoat · Post by **Cthulhugoat** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:55 pm

The Haris conspiration: everybody plays WoW. You're on a vacation? LIAR. You're a WoW junkie.

Sorry, I can't write more than that, gotta go back to WoW.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:03 pm

frissy wrote:But, you are right about them not discussing it with the fanbase, so it doesn't really apply to them, but then again...if they would open their mouths it would apply. I hardly think that the fanbase would comment in a velvety way... That would just mean that whatever they would say or suggest would pretty much be flamed beyond hell and be pretty pointelss to their work.

Ifs and buts can be discounted as irrelevant.

frissy wrote:IF Beth asked the fanbase for suggestions/feedback on something, what would it be?

Setting, storyline, choice-and-consequence probably. With mechanics lost, those are the first I'd tackle and try to represent the "true nature" of.

haris wrote:I dont like Kharn, Rosh or Nma and i can hardly wait untill rest of them leave the site by getting addicted to wow, but the article was still fun to read.

Heh, y'know, I never played WoW. I'm afraid that if I do, I'd get addicted

frissy · Post by **frissy** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:07 pm

Never played WoW either, i'm just addicted to Urbandead....and Vendetta-online.

The conspiracy is crumbling...but fear not! We still have the Oblivion conspiracy! Everyone plays Oblivion!