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[Bradylama]

Being the Vault Dweller or a descendant of the Vault Dweller has nothing to do with class, it's an orientation. Maybe the status could affect a character sheet for whatever reason, but other than that it functions entirely differently from class restrictions, which is basically what this boils down to. Class systems are restrictive, and force players to choose from the onset what their characters will become, instead of allowing the player to develop the character contextually.

Look at Fallout 2 as an example. In the beginning there aren't many opportunities to use the science skill, but later on the skill has its benefits. Should the player be denied the ability to have his character attain a higher understanding of computers and science because of the character's orientation, or should there be books that the character can read and the ability to invest into that skill?

[atoga]

haris please. class and background are entirely different things, you should realize this if you've ever played a pencil and paper rpg. backgrounds are meant to vaguely influence the skills & equipment you might begin with, plus they might affect how people react to your character if they're racist or whatever, though they are not meant to define 'tag' or specialist skills, or attributes, or anything of that nature, since they're meant to have a latent effect on the character. conversely, classes (in a world of warcraft sort of way) have a much more active role because they influence the direction of character development in in a set way. i don't know what else to say, the distinction should be pretty obvious.

backgrounds are okay, in fact i'm sure many people here would endorse them.

[Cimmerian Nights]

I think the more important question is can Bethesda implement a classless system that doesn't pander to the "have your cake and eat it too" crowd of kiddies who role-play magic-hurling barbarian ninja pirates from Oblivion.

The beauty of SPECIAL to me is a basic foundation of RPGs, choice and consequence. Choosing one path closes another. Strenth in one area means weakness in another. Covering all bases means spreading yourself too thin. It's the agonizing thought process of which perk to choose, or where to allocate skill points. That, and SPECIAL with it's derived stats & skills is just so simple and transparent.

[Insane-Lark]

Haris.... My god man, how is it that you can always be relied upon to say exactly the opposite of what Fallout fans think then defend it to the death? Isn't this comedy bit getting a bit old?

[SuperH]

That is exactly what we are talking about, you can call it class or backround or what ever you want. In fallout 1 and 2 you dont have a choice in who you are going to be at all. You cant be a thief, soldier or medic or anything like that. You are allways Vault dweler with few different atributes.

Have you played Fallout I wonder? You can be a thief, you put your points in steal and lockpick and you play like a thief. You want to be a soldier? There's six different skills to choose from there. Medic? Two. What possible reason could there be to pigeon hole you into one set choice from the get-go? You want it to be needlessly restrictive - play something other than Fallout if you don't trust your own imagination to fill out the character for you.

[Serifan]

I hate! I hate games with fucking class systems because I allways like to be a mix of 3 diffrent classes but my character is allways gimped because I can only choose one class to follow and maybe a sub class.

Fallout was great because I could make my player how I wanted. puting in a class system would just destroy what I love most about fallout.

Harris maybe you could get a job with Beth it seems you would fit in great.

[Cthulhugoat]

I hate! I hate games with fucking class systems because I allways like to be a mix of 3 diffrent classes but my character is allways gimped because I can only choose one class to follow and maybe a sub class.

[jetbaby]

Maybe it's just that Haris doesn't speak english and via some godawful mistake is able to make (somewhat) coherant sentences out of randomly striking a keyboard.

If you can't separate class and background you need to.. no. I really don't know how you can go about fixing yourself.

Regardless. Classless is the only way. As it has already been said a dozen times over classes only allow for needless restriction. The only "classes" that should be in the game are the basic template characters that are just a stock way to get into the game for, perhaps, someone new to the game who doesn't know the intricacies of the SPECIAL system and all the various tag skills and traits.

Again, as said, actions should decide where you can go, who likes you, who will talk to you, who will trade with you, et cetera and so forth. I don't see how starting the game as "Barbarian" or "Rogue" would at all improve gameplay, but I can definitely see how it would detract from it.

To put it simply, to force classes into Fallout is something akin to slamming the cube block into the circular hole. It just doesn't fit.

[aries100]

I don't really understand this thread :-? :-?

If you are worried that Bethsoft are going to
make classes (like in TES) in FO3, I stil don't understand this thread :-?

In TES games, players are able to do as they please, which means that being a mage doesn't necessarily prevent you from using a bow or a short sword or a mace.

I don't fear that the use of classes in FO3 will mean that the pc, the vault dweller, will not be able to use his scientists skills as the player progression in
TES games are based on what the players and the pc is doing.

In TES you get better at doing what you're doing by it, so this would mean that even a thief, or medic or soldier (of some sorts) would eventually be able to read scientists manuals --- by focusing on developing that skill.

[SuperH]

That is still uselessly restrictive, why bother calling you a mage at all, if you're not going to be forced to use those skills. SPECIAL allows for you to make your own god-damned choices about what you want your "class" to be, and just because most rpgs make you call your class early does not mean it should suddenly be introduced into fallout!

[TelemachusSneezed]

It seems to me that a "class and race" system is meant to solve the following immersion-problem: how can a player be made feel "unique" and/or "meaningful" in the virtual-reality of the game? The makers of FO1 & 2 already solved this problem in the best possible way: character actions determine environmental behavior. One "customizes" himself through actions and consequences, not through direct tooling with his characteristics (the exception being skills / stats).

You really can't get *better* than this system: it makes the most sense, and is the most unpredictable, which leads to every FO players' Pot o' Gold --> non-linearity.

So between "I'm an Orc, so people hate me" and "I killed a child during a firefight accidently and people hate me," I would definitely choose the latter and resist the former.

Just say no to character classes.
Friends don't let friends play classed characters.
D.A.R.E. to stay off character class.

...

[aries100]

"...character actions determine environmental behavior. One "customizes" himself through actions and consequences,..."

I think you're forgetting that this is EXACTLY the way things work in TES games. The actions you
character in TES games does determines exactly
what and how your character will progress through
the game.

If you read a lot, then your reading skills will be higher, and if you talk to people and lot and convince them, then your speechcraft skill and mercantile skill will go up.

If you use your sword a lot, then you blade skill will go up, if you use a gun like in Fallout, then your
gun skill will go up.

The only difference from Fallout 1+2 and TES ways of handling this ia, afaik, that TES has classes and races which adds some start bonus for choosing
Nords or Bosmers with regards to say certain armor or magic etc. etc. (and some for classes as well as for birthsigns).

[Haris]

None of you have provided any decent argument on why class would ruin fallout. As far as i see it SPECIAL allredy had classes by making you tag 3 skills and giving you optional 2 traits, it was just not called class and you pretty much allways looked the same and had same background.

I just think it would be great if fallout 3 had more choices that would benefit the playstile you chosen and give you backrground at the same time. So not every playtrough is same except you taged different skills this time.

If you still dont understand what i mean i give you example, you pick to be theif/spy or what ever you want to call it. It tags automaticly stealing for you, gives you +1 in dex/per and -1 in str/end. Gives you 20% more in base skill in sneak and stealing but effects yout reputation in certain towns. Rest is up to you to pick just as in SPECIAL system. And it allso makes your char look like a spy/thief and gives special dialog choices and exlusive perks that only theifs can pick as your char advances later.

[The Idiot]

Aries, the only choice Oblivion offers is what you kill baddies with, so please.. Also, you don't raise skills in FO by using them. Go play Fallout at once, you swine.

Haris, you could maintain the freedom of SPECIAL and still have the things you talk about. You are one silly goose, btw.

[atoga]

If you still dont understand what i mean i give you example, you pick to be theif/spy or what ever you want to call it. It tags automaticly stealing for you, gives you +1 in dex/per and -1 in str/end. Gives you 20% more in base skill in sneak and stealing but effects yout reputation in certain towns. Rest is up to you to pick just as in SPECIAL system. And it allso makes your char look like a spy/thief and gives special dialog choices and exlusive perks that only theifs can pick as your char advances later.

as i defined it at the top of a page, that's what a background is. 'thief' or 'urchin' are ok backgrounds since they affect how people might initially react to you, but they shouldn't change your starting abilities (thieves and urchins come in all stripes anyway).

there's no reason why you need to build stat changes into a background. it's needlessly restrictive.

[TelemachusSneezed]

The actions you character in TES games does determines exactly what and how your character will progress through the game.

You gave a lot of examples about skills and the like, but how does TES react to your actions beyond your immediate sphere of existence? I don't know, because I can't be bothered to play games like the TES series... cause they're gay. Orcs and magic and shit, blech.

On "classes and races," I could *maybe* see playing as a ghoul or a deathclaw, although there wouldn't be much of a game since these two types of beings are severely ostracized by human communities... and this is as it should be... no intermixing... purity... strength... human. :ROFL I injected racial superiority into this thread ROFL:

But "classes"? Here's the justification for why classes would ruin Fallout: because it is not Fallout-y. In FO1 & 2, your "class" -- if you want to use the vulgar term you fucking Marxists (that's a joke BTW, you fucking Marxists) -- is not given a priori, it is built from the ground-up. I'm not a "thief" because I said at the beginning of the game "I'm a thief"; I'm a thief because I steal shit and kill people behind their backs.

So, once again:
Just say no to character classes.
Friends don't let friends play classed characters.
D.A.R.E. to stay off character class.
Resist character classes. The fight is good.

[Brother None]

If you still dont understand what i mean i give you example, you pick to be theif/spy or what ever you want to call it. It tags automaticly stealing for you, gives you +1 in dex/per and -1 in str/end. Gives you 20% more in base skill in sneak and stealing but effects yout reputation in certain towns.

What you're describing is called background in Arcanum and traits in Fallout. Not a class. A class is something which gives you a +/- bonus, a roof on initial development, a limit on what skills you can pick.

Ok, if you want to go all comparison-like between SPECIAL and, say, D&D, which is typical class-less vs typical class-based:
Fallout made you perk 3 skills and gave you an option to pick two traits, with 18 skills and 16 traits to pick from (off the top of my head). Do the math, how many starting permutations is that? Go ahead, I'll give you a while.

BG had 3 fighter types, 2 rogue types, 2 priest types, 1 wizard type and 10 multi-classes. That's 18 permutations, the same number as the number of skills in Fallout, let alone the number of variations I can make in picking skills...

The two systems are inherently and consciously different. The class-based system is mostly a historical result of, get this, the *limitations of traditional, simple pen and paper*. Where the hell you get this "engine limits Fallout from including classes" shit is beyond me.

Now the question is, since Fallout is a game famed for choices and multiple branches, what is the advantage offered by classes? You have yet to name one, other than that it's kewl, and the burden of proof is definitely on your side.

[Haris]

You are talking like Special had no limitations when you where making you char, it did. Why would it be so bad if you could pick a class and race and get different set of limitation than ones you allways get in Special in fallout 1 and 2. If you are a pnp rpg fan i really have a hard time understanding why you would think that is a bad thing.

[Brother None]

You are talking like Special had no limitations when you where making you char, it did.

Less than class-based.

Why would it be so bad if you could pick a class and race and get different set of limitation than ones you allways get in Special in fallout 1 and 2.

...Limitations you always get...you mean like "STR can't be higher than 10"?

Limitations in class-based systems are always to set one type apart from another. "Only priests can have a wisdom of 19" or whatever, or "only fighters can have a strength of 18". Note: ONLY. There is no limitation in the SPECIAL system that needs selection.

Also, it beggeth the question; if they're limitations you always get, WHAT DOES IT ADD TO THE GAME

If you are a pnp rpg fan i really have a hard time understanding why you would think that is a bad thing.

"man if ur a pnp fan y u think orc in falluot r bad ide?"

[bforp]

You are Special had no limderstanitations when you where making you char, it did. wouldWhy it be so bad if you could pick a racthinke and get different set of limitation than class and ones you allways get in Special in fallout 1 and 2. If yotalking like u are a pnp rpg fan i really have a hard time unding why you would that is a bad thing.

What happened to KoRn?