RPG Codex summarises FO3

Mechanurgist · Post by **Mechanurgist** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:13 am

VDweller wrote:Overall, the mutants' sterility played a large role in the first game, providing a diplomatic solution to one of the final confrontations. It wasn't a minor, irrelevant fact that could be ignored or easily changed.

Exactly. Which is why you do not fuck with canon, BethSoft.

aries100 · Post by **aries100** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm

Ausir mentioned in a thread in the the Fallout General forum that Master's mutants army fled to the East - after the plan did go down the drain so to speak

He also mentioned that the super mutants were practically immortal, but no unkillable, of course.

In the previus Fallout games, though, the mutants came in rather late, in the game's narrative (story), and was more like super high end enemies (if they even were that) than the first thing a player might see when playing Bethsoft's version of Fallout; Fallout 3.

VDweller · Post by **VDweller** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:44 pm

aries100 wrote:Ausir mentioned in a thread in the the Fallout General forum that Master's mutants army fled to the East - after the plan did go down the drain so to speak He also mentioned that the super mutants were practically immortal, but no unkillable, of course.

From Vree's research:

Research into this virus has lead to many interesting discoveries. The test subject has gained many of its mutations from the overdose of the virus. This would account for the enhanced muscle and bone structure. Additionally, the recessive genes which are commonly found in humans have been manipulated in such a way as to bring about the best possible combination. While the process by which this happens is uncertain, it does have some severe side effects. Chief among them is sterility. The test subject would have been unable to reproduce with any creature, whether clean or mutated.Other side effects include an alteration of pigment of the epidermis. The life expectancy is increased by 10%. Intellect is decreased by this strain by 30%.

Based on this information, I would extrapolate that we could simply outlive these mutants.
...

The life expectancy is increased by 10%. The mutants are not immortal. The military base was destroyed in 2162. Fallout 3 events take place in/after 2277. More than 100 years later. Not a single super mutant could have survived that long, if we pay any attention to the canon.

Then again, Bethesda fucked TES canon BADLY in Oblivion, and that was their own setting. I guess they do treat Fallout as if it was their own series after all.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:15 pm

The hell, 10%? ZAX said "As the FEV causes constant regenerative update to DNA, it would effectively render the subject largely immortal, as cell death would be offset by augmented growth".

Uh-oh, in-game contradiction!

VDweller · Post by **VDweller** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:44 pm

Followed by:

"However, as my laboratory facilities are damaged beyond repair, this is conjectural. I cannot offer physical proof. You will have to, in human terms, 'take my word for it.'"

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:57 pm

Heh. Never spotted then. That settles it...

...except that...shouldn't the supermutants already have been dead by Fallout 2? Say they were 20-25 when dipped/in 2161, they'd be 100-105, or 90-91 in human years in Fallout 2. Only a small percentage of the population lives to that age, even in our current rich situation. So that makes no sense.

TelemachusSneezed · Post by **TelemachusSneezed** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:21 pm

Amazing! We still aren't exactly sure about the super mutants!

Luckily, we have a game developer that will contribute to the wonderful canon of Fallout, hopefully putting this whole debate to a rest... BETHESDA!!!!!!

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:29 pm

It's FEV... Forced Evolutionary Virus.

It could evolve. So maybe some variants granted extreme life extension.

No single answer need be provided. Different FEV strains could have gone off on tangents.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:34 pm

That doesn't make sense, Redeye, the supermutant Vree was experimenting on was dipped in the Master's Vats. There was only one set of Vats, and considering all mutants that came out of it looked the same, big variations in life expectancy can't be expected.

Though how Vree figured out how long the mutant would live by cutting up its corpse is beyond me.

TelemachusSneezed · Post by **TelemachusSneezed** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:39 pm

Brother None wrote:Though how Vree figured out how long the mutant would live by cutting up its corpse is beyond me.

Devs aren't scientists. They just came up with something that sounded plausible on first thought. See how you didn't realize that until years and years later? Then, they suceeded!

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:47 am

Brother None wrote:That doesn't make sense, Redeye, the supermutant Vree was experimenting on was dipped in the Master's Vats. There was only one set of Vats, and considering all mutants that came out of it looked the same, big variations in life expectancy can't be expected.

Though how Vree figured out how long the mutant would live by cutting up its corpse is beyond me.

They could have looked the same at first, then diverged later.

Different strains needn't start off as different strains.

Talius came out as a ghoul.

And new experiments were taking place in the Cathedral.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:56 pm

VDweller wrote:The life expectancy is increased by 10%. The mutants are not immortal.

Why the sudden, new interpretation of Fallout canon? While 'immortal' is definitely the wrong term, it's pretty obvious that FEV drastically increases the life expectancy of a subject that has been exposed to the virus. How would you otherwise explain the remaining super mutants in Fallout 2? Or Harold, for that matter; I mean, the guy's older than Tutankhamon and Larry King combined!

I find in-game evidence more significant than Vree's lab observations.

Urizen · Post by **Urizen** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:19 pm

Brother None wrote:There was only one set of Vats, and considering all mutants that came out of it looked the same, big variations in life expectancy can't be expected.

super mutant intelligence varied depending on how much radiation the subject had received. it's not impossible that life excpectancy also varied.

EDIT: btw, thanks for keeping the flag raised high at the beth forums

requiem_for_a_starfury · Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:43 pm

Brother None wrote:Heh. Never spotted then. That settles it...

...except that...shouldn't the supermutants already have been dead by Fallout 2? Say they were 20-25 when dipped/in 2161, they'd be 100-105, or 90-91 in human years in Fallout 2. Only a small percentage of the population lives to that age, even in our current rich situation. So that makes no sense.

There was only a few of the original super mutants shown though and weren't they in Broken Hills? Which had the retirement home so it kind of fits.

VDweller · Post by **VDweller** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:53 pm

VasikkA wrote:
VDweller wrote:The life expectancy is increased by 10%. The mutants are not immortal.
Why the sudden, new interpretation of Fallout canon?

Sudden, new interpretation? One more time, Vree's research - a research that plays a large role in the main quest - clearly states that "the life expectancy is increased by 10%". It's neither a new fact, pulled from some obscure sources like someone's ass, nor an interpretation of anything.

While 'immortal' is definitely the wrong term, it's pretty obvious that FEV drastically increases the life expectancy of a subject that has been exposed to the virus. How would you otherwise explain the remaining super mutants in Fallout 2?

Well, first, they are few in numbers. Second, it's been about 80 years since the destruction of the military base. Having a few mutants who are still alive 80 years later is not unreasonable, while having a shitload of mutants who are still alive and kicking 120 years later raises an eyebrow much higher.

Or Harold, for that matter; I mean, the guy's older than Tutankhamon and Larry King combined!

Harold is a ghoul, in case you have forgotten.

I find in-game evidence more significant than Vree's lab observations.

Whatever' makes it easier for you to accept Fallout 3 as a true and proper sequel.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:07 pm

i thought mca explicitly stated that harold wasn't a ghoul? he was a regular human who was exposed to a pretty big dose of FEV -- whereas ghouls are a product of airborne FEV and radiation, gosh golly gsaygkjhaewiuogealihges

your point has been falsified, faget

Cthulhugoat · Post by **Cthulhugoat** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:25 pm

VDweller wrote:Harold is a ghoul, in case you have forgotten.

Not really. Vault wiki to the rescue!

le wikee wrote:To the untrained eye, Harold appears to be a plain old ghoul. This is not so, however. Ghouls are the result of massive radiation damage to a human body: Harold is a product of the Forced Evolutionary Virus. No, he's not a super mutant, but the result of a unique combination of radiation damage from constant low-level exposure, indirect exposure to FEV (actually, we don't know just how Harold was infected with FEV as he blacked out for a while) and a fair amount of random chance. He's not a ghoul, he's certainly not a super mutant. To quote Tim Cain, "Harold is special."

Further more, Tim Cain has this to say on the subject: "As for contact [with FEV], any contact at all will infect the subject, but the amount of contact determines the result. For example, I imagine Harold had some contact with the virus, but he was not fully immersed in it, so he became a different mutant than the Master's subjects. Full immersion, of course, is the preferred method of infection, as it provides the virus a large surface area for infection."

edit:

atoga

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:55 pm

VDweller wrote:Sudden, new interpretation? One more time, Vree's research - a research that plays a large role in the main quest - clearly states that "the life expectancy is increased by 10%". It's neither a new fact, pulled from some obscure sources like someone's ass, nor an interpretation of anything.

Except that the sterility of super mutants has been discussed to death here at DAC. If I recall correctly, this was even brought up in Fallout Bible(I know, semi-canon). Unless I've been completely ignorant during the last 5 years, the consensus is that a super mutants have a far greater life span than a normal humans. Of course, the majority of super mutants were eradicated during and after the events of Fallout 1 and the fact that they're infertile makes them a dying breed.

Vree's research and ZAX's records are somewhat contradictory. How come you assume that Vree's conclusion is the correct one? Instead, why not look at the big picture?

Well, first, they are few in numbers. Second, it's been about 80 years since the destruction of the military base. Having a few mutants who are still alive 80 years later is not unreasonable, while having a shitload of mutants who are still alive and kicking 120 years later raises an eyebrow much higher.

There's no denying that the remaining super mutants are few after the destruction of the military base. But after 80 years, shouldn't the last remaining mutants be at the end of their lifespan, even if they were very young when they got dipped into FEV? The mutants in Redding certainly weren't dying of old age.

Harold is a ghoul, in case you have forgotten.

Harold got a hefty dose of FEV while walking around the Military Base, along with Richard Grey and others. He's also gotten a good deal of radiation, like other residents of the Wasteland. Harold is a special case. He's not a super mutant, but the effects of FEV are visible on him partially explaining his longevity.

Ghouls are ex-residents of Vault 12(Necropolis vault), but I assume you knew that.

Whatever' makes it easier for you to accept Fallout 3 as a true and proper sequel.

Let's stick to Fallout 1 and 2, shall we?

aries100 · Post by **aries100** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:12 am

The big question here is what does higher life expectancy than humans mean??

Just to make an illustrative point, the average Danish male life's expentancy is about 76 years, while the average Danish female can expect to be 80 years of age. The world's oldest citizen right now is 112 years old, born in 1895, and is, of course, Japanese

(irrc). And I think the oldest living lived to the ripe age of (nearly) 122. In the last years of her life she complained about that God had forgotten her as she wanted to die.
(this is not a place to discuss god, I just mentioned it to add to to the feel of the setting).

If we then take 112 and multiply with 1,10, then we get 123 years, if we take 122 X 1,20, then we get
134 years. But that's probably a bit much, so let's say that the average super mutant gets to be about 95-100 years, and that some of them live to ripe of age of 110 years or so. (a few maybe even to the even riper age of 120 years).

Also, in one of the above posts the words used are 'largely immortal'. The super mutants are not immortal, they are largely immortal, which probably means that have a larger life expectancy than (most) humans do. Or a 'far greater life span than humans'.

But what is this: Is it 10% or 20% or even 50%?

Let's look at the timeline:

In 2162, the Master's plan is destroyed, the remnants of the super mutants flee to the east.
In Fallout 2, there should (and are?) still super mutants around, but they are old (around 80-85 years of age) and don't pose a threat anymore(?).

The super mutants that fled to the east would in Fallout 3 be 115-120 years. And that doesn't make sense at all, since the super mutant screenshot clearly was of a young supermutant (it looked that way to me, anyway). It could be argued that there of course be maybe 10-20 of the old garde of supermutants left on the West Coast, and then maybe some more, 20-40, on the East Coast.

So, yes the last remaining mutants should probably be at the end of their lifespan, 115 years after the military base was destroyed.

But that does not compute with Beth's info that in FO3 there are supermutants like Locusts e.g. practically on every street corner. Something does not compute - in my mind. Either Beth doesn't care about the lore in the Fallout universe or they've decided to add a plausible ( :roll: yah - right :roll: )
explanation as to why the BoS and the Super Mutants are on the East Coast. (and to why the BoS apparently are some kind of US military or US calvalry unit - rescuing people in distress

:roll: )

VDweller · Post by **VDweller** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:19 am

VasikkA wrote:Vree's research and ZAX's records are somewhat contradictory. How come you assume that Vree's conclusion is the correct one?

Vree is the one who actually did a proper research. ZAX offered only an educated guess ("...damaged beyond repair, this is conjectural.").

Research > guess

Also, Vree's reseach is backed up by the Master who agreed with the data. If Vree was right about sterility, why should we assume that Vree was wrong about the longevity?

Instead, why not look at the big picture?

Which is what? Super mutants in FO2? We all know why they were in FO2. It was a quick sequel and supermutants were a cool, already existing art asset. Besides, there were aliens, talking deathclaws, gangsters, katana-wielding yakuza, and other fun stuff in Fallout 2.