Fans don't matter
As a former gaming mag associate editor who used to go to E3 back when simply having a website to your credit was enough to get a press pass, I can assure you all that there's a lot of very good reasons they don't just let any old fan into these things. Imagine if the NFL opened up all their important press events to the public at large. You wouldn't be able to hear anything over all the "X team sucks!" and "Woohoos!"
Much the same with gaming events only with more BO, near-riots starting over ugly and useless pieces of swag, and time wasted on insanely stupid questions of no use to anyone except maybe the kid who got to feel important for five seconds because he got to claim his share of some precious Q&A time with the devs with useless drivel.
Say what you want about the gaming press (I was a bit taken aback by the universal lauding of Oblivion myself) but at least they understand the importance of keeping the opinions on your pages separate from your real-world interaction with the only people who can tell you something useful about the game.
If the "hard-core" fans want Beth to take them seriously, they need to stop being drama queens about every detail of the game. I was as deeply concerned about the mediocre RPG elements of Oblivion coupled with its massive success sending Beth the wrong message about how to do a Fallout as the next guy but at this point, I know enough about how they're making the game to realize that they at least seem to grok the key elements of what made the Fallouts great and no, I don't think a so-so turn-based isometric combat system had anything to do with it. I'll wait to see whether it's a worthy sequel or not when it finally comes out.
Much the same with gaming events only with more BO, near-riots starting over ugly and useless pieces of swag, and time wasted on insanely stupid questions of no use to anyone except maybe the kid who got to feel important for five seconds because he got to claim his share of some precious Q&A time with the devs with useless drivel.
Say what you want about the gaming press (I was a bit taken aback by the universal lauding of Oblivion myself) but at least they understand the importance of keeping the opinions on your pages separate from your real-world interaction with the only people who can tell you something useful about the game.
If the "hard-core" fans want Beth to take them seriously, they need to stop being drama queens about every detail of the game. I was as deeply concerned about the mediocre RPG elements of Oblivion coupled with its massive success sending Beth the wrong message about how to do a Fallout as the next guy but at this point, I know enough about how they're making the game to realize that they at least seem to grok the key elements of what made the Fallouts great and no, I don't think a so-so turn-based isometric combat system had anything to do with it. I'll wait to see whether it's a worthy sequel or not when it finally comes out.
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Wolfman Walt
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While I understand where you're coming from, you also gotta realize that NMA is like some sort of Fallout Sanctuary and is the largest community dedicated to fallout (or atleast, last I checked they were larger then DaC). It's not just this event that kinda raises flags, but stuff like Beth taking NMA off their links list. Beth also has a history of snubbing fans of franchises, so I think thats what we're more concerned about in this specific case. Especially since it seemed like they were trying to single out fans, despite what the initial "press release" or what have you indicates.
From what I can tell, a majority of the complaints aren't over minor things. You're allowed your opinion, which for reference: many here don't agree with, especially when you call the combat system of the original fallout "so-so", but alot of the points brought up by the fans are pretty valid in my opinion. Some of it is pretty nitpicky, but others, such as questions about dialogue, seemingly twitch gameplay oriented combat, and observations of the AI being moronic are genuine good questions that AREN'T being asked by the press.
If you ask me, waiting to see till a sequel comes out is abit too late to start complaining. There's not a chance in hell that they'll listen, but do you think they'd listen to us complaining afterwards or you know, ever?
From what I can tell, a majority of the complaints aren't over minor things. You're allowed your opinion, which for reference: many here don't agree with, especially when you call the combat system of the original fallout "so-so", but alot of the points brought up by the fans are pretty valid in my opinion. Some of it is pretty nitpicky, but others, such as questions about dialogue, seemingly twitch gameplay oriented combat, and observations of the AI being moronic are genuine good questions that AREN'T being asked by the press.
If you ask me, waiting to see till a sequel comes out is abit too late to start complaining. There's not a chance in hell that they'll listen, but do you think they'd listen to us complaining afterwards or you know, ever?
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PiP
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first off thanks for coming over and making valid points instead of talking BS.Pherdnut wrote:stuff
As regards the 'fans don't matter' issue, I feel it's not so much about this (or other) particular press event. Being old Fallout communities (us and NMA) we feel like we could get something from the devs. Dunno, some small exclusive interview, a screenshot some time later maybe. To be recognized as fan sites. Instead, we 'don't matter'. Maybe Bethfolks fear that some console kiddies, having read some fan opinions, could omg! become critical of some aspects of Fo3. It's sad and unrealistic.
Oh we got MrSmileyFaceDude and even Emil P. himself
reading and posting here (Emil was even kind enough to appreciate our ideas) but they won't let traces of this itneraction be known outside.TB+iso did not create the world's atmosphere, story, dialogues, humour. It did, however, significantly define your gaming experience. The way you looked at Fallout, the way you handled combat in Fallout. Also the way stats and skills worked.Pherdnut wrote:they at least seem to grok the key elements of what made the Fallouts great and no, I don't think a so-so turn-based isometric combat system had anything to do with it.
I like FPP games. I even liked KotOR's combat - unlike some folks - which is perhaps a bit like F3's VATS. I don't think these are 'Fallouty'. I think combat system and perspective matters. However, I can live with FPP and VATS in F3 (provided I can avoid RT combat). I just hope they do other things right: dialogue, non-combat playstyles, interesting world and NPCs, humour, etc.
And for fuck's sake why do you start the game fighting a group of uber-badasses with another group of uber-badasses. And why is there a freaking nuke-gun in the dam' game!
:rantingoldcunt:-
Killzig
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talk about sabotaging your own post from the word go.Pherdnut wrote:As a former gaming mag associate editor who used to go to E3 back when simply having a website to your credit was enough to get a press pass, I can assure you all that there's a lot of very good reasons they don't just let any old fan into these things. Imagine if the NFL opened up all their important press events to the public at large. You wouldn't be able to hear anything over all the "X team sucks!" and "Woohoos!"
Much the same with gaming events only with more BO, near-riots starting over ugly and useless pieces of swag, and time wasted on insanely stupid questions of no use to anyone except maybe the kid who got to feel important for five seconds because he got to claim his share of some precious Q&A time with the devs with useless drivel.
You're operating from the assumption that the mainstream gaming press has been at all useful in their Q&A processes with FO3 thus far. They haven't. They've all asked the same soft questions. No hard follow ups. The only exception was a European Q&A that really took them to task for betraying Fallout's core gameplay mechanics.
As far as Fans at NFL functions. This is a TERRIBLE example. Fans can go pretty much anywhere they want in the NFL. OTAs, training camps, charity functions held by the team where they can sit at the same table as front office staff/players, and this year they even opened up the NFL combine for not just visitors but viewers of NFL Network. The NFL's access to fans is unparalleled. You'll also find that most times when fans get to ask questions they ask players how position battles are panning out/how players are getting along with their teammates/etc.
nit picking serves the purpose of pointing out the overall lack of Fallout-y-ness in the game's general direction. The Megaton quest being show as the apex of Fallout 3's quest design is more than just a little disconcerting given it's a binary decision with completely black or completely white outcomes. Maybe you can temper that with all of the lip-service being paid to shades of gray but I can't.
and is it really nit-picking when you're talking about the core gameplay mechanics that you're going to be dealing with at every turn within the game? VATS sounds tedious and unsatisfying at just about every level. The real-time combat sounds like it's going to be equally frustrating/displeasing. The over abundance of nuclear ordinance in the game world isn't exactly a minor nitpick either. That's definitely something that misses the spirit of Fallout entirely and IMO, cheeses it up quite a bit. Hey guys, we're doing a post nuclear game. Hear that NUCLEAR! Let's put NUKES everywhere so the kids don't forget! HERE THAT? NUKE. NUKE. NUKE!
try again.
The answer to your first question is shaddup.
Well, no hard feelings guys, uh... aside from "drink chlorine" guy, but I just wanted to offer some perspective.
I would have been spamtastically happy if they'd just given the game a makeover rather than extensive plastic surgery myself but the arguments I've had with people over at the official forums have been frustrating. I just think people are too quick to assume it's going to suck based on little to no information. People have been screaming bloody murder since before we had any real information on the game and even when some more encouraging facts come along, they continue to spout vitriol as if Bethesda was murdering puppies.
It's kind of like the old-guard Transformers or Battlestar Galactica fans, IMO. Sure I enjoyed that stuff when I was a kid but people got so hung up on the details and new directions of the new stuff that they missed out on two highly enjoyable experiences.
In any case, if I've learned anything from being a critic for a few years, it's that you really can't possibly guess how good or bad something is going to be until you actually get your hands on it... uh... unless it's a motocross game. Ugh.
Beth isn't doing Fallout 3 exactly as I would prefer but they seem to at least be aware of Oblivion's shortcomings compared to the Fallouts where a lot of the RPG mechanics are concerned.
They do appear to want real dialogue. They do appear to understand that without doors closing for doors opened the game has nowhere near as much replay value as the originals. And they appear to be interested in making character build and character choices a lot more relevant than they were in Oblivion. And as goofy a compromise as the nonVATS portion of combat sounds, at least it still appears to be stat/perk relevant.
Don't get me wrong. I've got concerns and criticism too and I'll bet I've logged enough hours on both games to place me in the 99.99th percentile of obsessed Fallout nerds but seeing as how I'm still going back to the originals at least once a year, I think I can handle FO3 not being the exact same experience with new NPCs, locations, and a graphics upgrade as long as they stick to the important stuff.
Maybe combat will be a bit silly but taking advantage of turns to essentially make yourself invulnerable between attacks by stepping in and out of cover didn't make much sense to me either. Nor did waiting a half an hour for 15 ghouls to move before being able to anything.
I would have been spamtastically happy if they'd just given the game a makeover rather than extensive plastic surgery myself but the arguments I've had with people over at the official forums have been frustrating. I just think people are too quick to assume it's going to suck based on little to no information. People have been screaming bloody murder since before we had any real information on the game and even when some more encouraging facts come along, they continue to spout vitriol as if Bethesda was murdering puppies.
It's kind of like the old-guard Transformers or Battlestar Galactica fans, IMO. Sure I enjoyed that stuff when I was a kid but people got so hung up on the details and new directions of the new stuff that they missed out on two highly enjoyable experiences.
In any case, if I've learned anything from being a critic for a few years, it's that you really can't possibly guess how good or bad something is going to be until you actually get your hands on it... uh... unless it's a motocross game. Ugh.
Beth isn't doing Fallout 3 exactly as I would prefer but they seem to at least be aware of Oblivion's shortcomings compared to the Fallouts where a lot of the RPG mechanics are concerned.
They do appear to want real dialogue. They do appear to understand that without doors closing for doors opened the game has nowhere near as much replay value as the originals. And they appear to be interested in making character build and character choices a lot more relevant than they were in Oblivion. And as goofy a compromise as the nonVATS portion of combat sounds, at least it still appears to be stat/perk relevant.
Don't get me wrong. I've got concerns and criticism too and I'll bet I've logged enough hours on both games to place me in the 99.99th percentile of obsessed Fallout nerds but seeing as how I'm still going back to the originals at least once a year, I think I can handle FO3 not being the exact same experience with new NPCs, locations, and a graphics upgrade as long as they stick to the important stuff.
Maybe combat will be a bit silly but taking advantage of turns to essentially make yourself invulnerable between attacks by stepping in and out of cover didn't make much sense to me either. Nor did waiting a half an hour for 15 ghouls to move before being able to anything.
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Dreadnought
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People know that Bethesda has no skill in making games. That's why people were instantly bitching about them making Fallout 3.
Real time combat failed in FOT, why shouldn't it fail in FO3? It's the same shit, just from a different ankle.
Seeking cover is even more present in FPS games than in turn based tactical combat. Does it make you invurnelable? I don't think so. Maybe turn the game/fight dificulty UP.
I never waited long for a turn to end. You're doing it wrong. Put combat speed up. I never really felt the combat was too long. In fact, that's what I enjoyed. The 'slow' but steady process of turn based combat.
I'm tired of bullet time, jumping of walls, ultra glamorous explosions, high end FX, etc etc etc...
It's like painting a dry piece of shit with really nice expensive colours. It 'looks nice' but it'll still stay shit from the inside.
Also, there's another point I noticed in recent games:
Technology that doesn't make sense outside the game.
Like VATS. A 'vault tec' technology for stopping the time so you can aim? WTF... It's allright as a FEATURE but bringing it in relation with an actual technology is crippled bullshit.
Or look at Bioshock. 97 % of the plasmids are total crap reduced to the gameworld presented to the player. As an example, "Wrench Lurker" reduces it to the fact, that the player is using a wrench, but most close combat splicers have a large variety of close combat weapons.
Real time combat failed in FOT, why shouldn't it fail in FO3? It's the same shit, just from a different ankle.
Seeking cover is even more present in FPS games than in turn based tactical combat. Does it make you invurnelable? I don't think so. Maybe turn the game/fight dificulty UP.
I never waited long for a turn to end. You're doing it wrong. Put combat speed up. I never really felt the combat was too long. In fact, that's what I enjoyed. The 'slow' but steady process of turn based combat.
I'm tired of bullet time, jumping of walls, ultra glamorous explosions, high end FX, etc etc etc...
It's like painting a dry piece of shit with really nice expensive colours. It 'looks nice' but it'll still stay shit from the inside.
Also, there's another point I noticed in recent games:
Technology that doesn't make sense outside the game.
Like VATS. A 'vault tec' technology for stopping the time so you can aim? WTF... It's allright as a FEATURE but bringing it in relation with an actual technology is crippled bullshit.
Or look at Bioshock. 97 % of the plasmids are total crap reduced to the gameworld presented to the player. As an example, "Wrench Lurker" reduces it to the fact, that the player is using a wrench, but most close combat splicers have a large variety of close combat weapons.
You really thought no one said that before you? You really thought we didn't have any self-righteous pricks come here before and preaching shit like that? If you are indeed one of them then I'll just tell this: We had. More than once. Don't go there again.Pherdnut wrote:PENISES EVERYWHERE
Serious Business.
Speaking of self-righteous pricks, I don't think I've actually gone out of my way to insult anybody here and your flair for the dramatic is extraordinary given that we're all here because we love the same thing.Koki wrote:You really thought no one said that before you? You really thought we didn't have any self-righteous pricks come here before and preaching shit like that? If you are indeed one of them then I'll just tell this: We had. More than once. Don't go there again.Pherdnut wrote:PENISES EVERYWHERE
Anyway, yes I do feel gaming's been in a bit of a glut with the higher budgets and the wow FX vs. solid game design issues or I'd be more distracted from games that aren't ten years old.
The real ugly began when the money-handlers started noticing that there was a crapload of money to be made off of games. The publishers got absorbed into one giant amorphous object and gaming went much the same way that music, movies, and TV have with safe bets being made over and over again ad nauseum until the steadily declining rate of returns finally convinces the powers that be to give those guys that want to try something new or old that shouldn't have been forgotten a chance.
So we have a golden month or five of interesting games followed by a clusterfuck of derivatives and copycats for several years thereafter until the cashflow becomes less tolerable and the powers that be are willing to take risks again.
The situation sucks mighty big donkey dick, but I'm not convinced that Bethesda, one of the last sizable independent houses in existence is aiming to turn Fallout 3 into a watered down suckfest just because they think it will please the largest number of Oblivion-school "u dont n33d plotz cuz u kin jes RP itz!" fans possible.
I think they got too excited about the new technology they had access to and forgot that they were supposed to be making an RPG. Fortunately for them, there's a whole new generation of gamers old and young that's never played a decent one and even to an experienced player, the first 20 hours or so (i.e. longer than the average game reviewer plays a game) make the game seem a lot sweeter than it actually is. But I also think they're aware of why so many people were disappointed and seem to want to fix those mistakes.
All I'm saying is that I can feel where it's coming from but I think the negativity's been a bit extreme to the point where people are actually reaching a bit to fuel it.
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Thor Kaufman
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They can't help it. With all the anti-fallout fan propaganda going around the office over at beth, I'm sure it's fucking communism inquiry century over there.Thor Kaufman wrote:Good thing Bethesda people are still registering here, their points are really well thought out and convincing
"Don't let that rabble bring you down! Only you can bring "our take" on the Fallout universe to life! Sign up for Overtime TODAY!"
So they gotta come over and see the nasty awful things we're saying about the work they're doing. The sad thing being, the motherfuckers are not only bad at their jobs, which is really, truly evident in all the games bethesda has had a hand in, but they're also being told to do things with those mediocre skills that additionally fucking suck.
"I've decided that if positive affirmations can "cure cancer" then negative affirmations can cause cancer. Chant with me: Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard. Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard. Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard."
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Dreadnought
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No, like this.Dreadnought wrote:Glittering gems of hatred...Pherdnut wrote:WORDS
Glittering gems of hatred...
"I've decided that if positive affirmations can "cure cancer" then negative affirmations can cause cancer. Chant with me: Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard. Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard. Fuck you and Die, Todd Howard."
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Thor Kaufman
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PiP
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I reckon the assumptios is that the charcter is assisted by some (hardware?) to shoot in specific points, and the player merely experiences this as 'stopping the time'. This 'transition' is not bad in itself.Dreadnought wrote: Technology that doesn't make sense outside the game.
Like VATS. A 'vault tec' technology for stopping the time so you can aim? WTF... It's allright as a FEATURE but bringing it in relation with an actual technology is crippled bullshit.
so gameworld elements make sense ingame but not in real world? Gee, serious stuffOr look at Bioshock. 97 % of the plasmids are total crap reduced to the gameworld presented to the player.
wrong; Koki is here to bitch.Pherdnut wrote:we're all here because we love the same thing.
Shi..Koki wrote:Cool. Thanks
could you expand on this?Pherdnut wrote:Bethesda, one of the ... independent houses
you're tripping bortha. There's like one guy assigned the job of skimming forums every now and again and that's it.popscythe wrote:So they gotta come over and see
