Sept. 11 and the War on Terror: Bullshit or Patriotism?

[VasikkA]

I think the war on terrorism and getting rid of dictators/evil ragimes is a good thing, as a long term solution. War is not good, but hey, there is no other way to accomplish it.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

I think someone definitely needs to be doing something about the terrorist-supporting states. Whether it is the currnet actions of the US, UK and others is beyond my ability to say, since I know almost nothing about the best ways to find and stop terrorism.

I'm against relaxing the restrictions on killing innocents, though. If we're going to become murderers of innocents, we might as well hand the world to the terrorists on a plate. I have no idea how to differentiate the innocent from the guilty, though. Terrorists specialise in smiling and pretending they're just a normal person before they do something horrendous.

I also don't like the amount of flag-waving the Americans are doing right now. This situation has really shown beyond any doubt that there is a significant proportion of the American population who are almost identical to the terrorist-harbouring countries in that they:

• Believe their nation/culture unquestionably superior to the rest of the world.
• See all foreigners as enemies to be killed or derided
• View anyone who disagrees with them as an enemy, to be killed or derided
• Know almost nothing about the 96% of the population of the world outside their country, and have no desire to find out anything about it before they blow it up.

I can't see how replacing one source of rabid cultural aggression, like that found in Afghanistan under the Taliban, with another is going to help anyone.

[Smiley]

Doing war through tanks and soldiers wont accomplish anything...

Only sensible war that would be fought should be fought like this;

Keep all tanks, soldiers and military forces purely as defence, not
offence....

Send assasins after the political/military leader, and after that
when whatever third world country has lost its leader, let them
find a new leader... Snipe him, and they'll beg for mercy,
of which whoever is figting them should leave them alone.

...That way; Nobody "innocent" will get in the way, and all war will
be about is who can snipe the others leader first!...

[Megatron]

(cue Pyro's confused opinions and information from the tabloids and his parents)

Firstly, I think they should have chosen a better name than 'War on terror', because how can you fight an emotion? Plus I thought the U.S funded the I.R.A in ireland, but I'm not sure.

Secondly, didn't the U.S kill more people with friendly fire than...something else (it was something big, but I forgot)

Third:People around the world die every day of disease, drug use or crime, but you don't see millions of 'soccer moms' and brainwashed americans stumble around waving flags and going to fight the war against evil or whatever.

Fourth:To say your the most 'evolved' country is a bit stupid. You'd have thought the most evolved country would mabye have more polite and smarter citizens with no problems that live in a clean and funcioning society. And mabye a president who isn't...what he is

Whatever.

[Kinnicus]

*Chuckle* the president thing...lol....yeah.

Okay first off, I think the war on terror is bullshit. It hasnt helped diddlyfuck since 9/11, all it has done is to appese the sense of justice for 9to5 workers, and soccor moms. If we really wanted to, and were'nt so goddamned worried about how we look, we could send special forces across the borders, and hunt the taliban down like dogs. But no, this is against the "way" of the american peoples. What bullshit. Now, I'm young, not yet even 16, so I have'nt seen any effects of war or anything, but still, this whole thing is stupid, America is stupid, We care more about how look to other countries, about how we look to our own people, than we (And I mean our Government) do about really getting justice. Really going out and killing the 50-something year old dude who orcastrated the whole stupid attack thing. Ug. As for where would all the other countries thing, where would they be, well who gives a flying fuck? Where would America be without any other countries?
It would'nt, without France, without England, without most of Europe, and some of Asia, america would be nothing.

Americans are stupid, we were mollified when 9/11 happened, I was amused. I dont mean anything against the Dead, or the relatives/friends of the Dead, I mean against the american people as a whole, we are insulated; we are cows. We are so used to seeing america as invincable, when 9/11 happened we all stampeded around, wanting justice done, so that Keebler elf of a president sent over troops to afgaistan. Woopdedo! It has done nothing, we have gotten almost no one, we still cant find the old dude in the rocks. That too, how the hell can an old dude hide from a "superpower"? If we're so great why havent we found him yet? Where could he be hiding? We are sooooo great, but we can't track and find a terrorist group across some rocks. Ug.

I hate america, we have such an inflated image of ourselves we cant see what wrong with us, we are a lazy,stupid, Missinformed people, who cant even report whats going on right. OH NO, LOOK IT'S A (what is it called again bob?...oh thats right) IT'S A DIRTY BOMB! LET'S GET RILED UP OVER SOMETHING THAT CAN BARELY HURT US(usually a stick of dynamite taped to some type of nuclear thing) AHHHH!! IT COULD KILL US ALL!!

thats what Im talking about, our news sucks, they cant report right half the time, and when they do, its grossly overrated. Stupid american pigs.


-Steve

[Crow of Ill Omen]

There are special forces hunting the Taliban. I think that Osama bin Laden (whatever) probably has a lot of resources and allies, given how wealthy he is. Maybe they'll get him eventually, but he really is only a symbol, anyway. Terrorism won't end with his capture. I suppose the war against terrorism is at least as much concerned with infiltrating and breaking up networks.

OT I'm offering a hefty intangible prize to the first US user of this forum who can get through an entire politically related post without using the phrase "soccer mom." A bonus goes to the person who can explain to me why the US (internet using) public now defines all political concepts in terms of "soccer moms." It's a confusing idiom (for me, at least), since I come from a footballing nation where mum's are the people least likely to have an interest in the sport.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

There are special forces hunting the Taliban. I think that Osama bin Laden (whatever) probably has a lot of resources and allies, given how wealthy he is. Maybe they'll get him eventually, but he really is only a symbol, anyway. Terrorism won't end with his capture. I suppose the war against terrorism is at least as much concerned with infiltrating and breaking up networks.

OT I'm offering a hefty intangible prize to the first US user of this forum who can get through an entire politically related post without using the phrase "soccer mom." A bonus goes to the person who can explain to me why the US (internet using) public now defines all political concepts in terms of "soccer moms." It's a confusing idiom (for me, at least), since I come from a footballing nation where mum's are the people least likely to have an interest in the sport.

They dont have any intrest in the sport. Soccer moms are the slaves of suburbia, who never go to collage (and If they do, it is most likely UNLVA), and work constantly to support their autocratic husband and chaoitc, violent little boys.
Welcome to america :usa

[Constipated BladeRunner]

1 Christianity is the mot populous relgion in the world, weighing in at a massive 2 billion, 1 of which are roman catholic
2 Islam is the second most populous, weighing in at 1 billion.
3 India is split between 2/3 hindu and 1/3 islamic
4 China allowes no religion.
The USSR lost for many reasons, however, USSRvUSA is an example of menetic (you can find it somewhere) evolution. I meant Polytheisim- there are two main polytheisims left in the world- some branches of Buddhisim and Hinduisim, neither of them are top-five.
[quote]Now, why is the idea that if someone/something "wins" that it is stronger false? Because strenghts are not absolute. In other words, a certain quality that is an asset in a certain situation becomes a liablity in another situation.

That is evolution

[Temaperacl]

Compare that number to the number of civilian deaths attributed to various US bombing campaigns both past and present and you'll see that the totals are quite lopsided. The shocking thing to the American people is mainly that the last time someone bombed the US was WWII and most people didn't even know about the balloon-mounted incendiary bombs falling in the Pacific Northwest. The last time US soil was invaded was during the War of 1812 when the English burned Washington, D. C. to include the White House in retribution for what had been done to Quebec. So Americans are fairly well insulated from things that are commonplace in other places in the world, like bombs and bodies raining down all over the street.

While I agree with the conclusion (That Americans are fairly well insulated from the types of things that are commonplace in other areas. The isolated location of the USA certainly affects the way Americans think and act.), I must point out a mistake- US soil was invaded in WWII (The Aleutians [Although Alaska was not yet a state if that is what you are going by].).

A better question would be, "What would the US be w/o France?" While it's fashionable in the US to bash France for having to be bailed out during both World Wars...or - more precisely - bailed out during one and reestablished after its fall during the next, the US would not have been able to throw off the yoke of English colonialism were it not for several other nations. France is the key among those, but the Spanish and Dutch were also there to stick to England.

We make fun of the French because we LOVE the French. But don't tell nobody.
(Seriously, the view of the French among those I am familiar with is strongly positive- I'd elaborate, but I don't have the time.)

[OnTheBounce]

Okay, I've spent a little over an hour surfing around looking at totals for various world religions and I'm more confused now than I was before. Largely this is because people are using different criteria for their data and not telling what those criteria are. For instance some tallies rely on census data which only requires people to tick/check a block whereas other studies are based on chuch attendance. At any rate, the numbers aren't really that important, because we haven't agreed yet what exactly the definition for a religion "winning" is.

I do, however, admit that I had some bad numbers and I apologize for that.

1 Christianity is the mot populous relgion in the world, weighing in at a massive 2 billion, 1 of which are roman catholic

Arguably we could discount the 1 billion Roman Catholics from the monotheistic group. While Catholics would swear up and down they are monotheists the veneration of saints and the Virgin Mary puts their status in doubt.

4 China allowes no religion.

China has actually been relaxing its strictures on religion in the past few years. Not to mention that while the Cultural Revolution did do lasting damage to the public practice of religion - notably Daoism because it relies very heavily on temples and shrines which were sacked - Confucianism and Buddhism have been making a strong rebound. If you ever study Chinese culture, you'll find that religion is part-and-parcel of Chinese daily life, w/the major three religions as a sort of tri-pronged iceberg that meets under the surface, and you can add all of the localized traditions which aren't defined in any sort of cannon to that mix as well.

The USSR lost for many reasons, however, USSRvUSA is an example of menetic (you can find it somewhere) evolution.

I've looked in the definitive source on the English language and can't find hide nor hair of it. Do you have a link? Or did you misspell it?

That is evolution

No, it's not. Evolution in the Darwinian sense - and you did bring up Darwin originally - is the process by which biological organisms adapt to their environments. Humanity is largely outside of the scope of this process because as a species humanity does not adapt to its environment, but rather adapts its environment to its own needs.

If you're meaning something else, such as "menetic evolution", please provide me w/more information on the subject. Until that time there's really no sense in going on since we're probably talking about different things. (Which is what 99% of arguments are about, anyway.)

I must point out a mistake- US soil was invaded in WWII (The Aleutians [Although Alaska was not yet a state if that is what you are going by].).

Yes, you are correct and I thought of that ommission some time after I posted. However, the invasion of the Aleutians is basically like the Japanese firebombing in that while it was technically an attack on US soil its geographic location and the way it was handled by the media basically made no lasting impression on the US. (For those that don't know: the fires caused by the bombing were officially listed as simple wildfires and several regiments of Black paratroopers were sent into the area under a veil of secrecy.)

Every time I think of the War of 1812 and that bit in the Aleutians I want to go get a length of good, strong, coarse rope and wrap it around John Milius' neck and hang him 'til he's dead...dead...dead. (Yes, I'm referring to the intro to Red Dawn.)

OTB

[Nirvana]

OnTheBounce what you said about Catholics being monotheists is wrong
Please dont ofend the my religion being given such poor justifications

[OnTheBounce]

OnTheBounce what you said about Catholics being monotheists is wrong

How so? What exactly does worship entail? "You are wrong," isn't an argument. Expound on your position, please.

Please dont ofend the my religion being given such poor justifications

I didn't offend your religion. You may have taken offense, but I will reiterate that none of my posts are to be taken personally. If I say something it's w/reason. Why are my justifications poor? I said that Catholics are arguably not monotheists and stated that this was the case because of their veneration of the saints and the Virgin Mary. Are you saying that asking a Saint to intercede on your behalf isn't a form of worship, or that addressing the Mother of Christ, hailing her as beads are manipulated in the hand aren't worship? They certainly sound like worship to me.

Again, I don't post to offend people. If you don't want to debate, feel free not to. I turn my back on arguments from time-to-time because I don't have the energy or the desire to carry the debate through. You should feel free to to do the same.

OTB

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Many parts of catholosisim are polytheistic- You want something, you pray to that particular saint, not god.
There are two forms of evolution-
There is the biological, which is harsh, cruel yet staggeringly effective
than you have one that is sapien exclusive- menetic, the survival of a certain culture in its place is a form of menetic evolution- take for instance Islam- it worked amazignly well for the area, so it prospered. The same goes for christianity. I took a collage course on the subject.
Also, I would not use china as a good example of anything at the moment. the amazingly fast decrees in population, the evilness, the opression, the fact that every 30 seconds a woman in china has commited suicide.

[spyder07]

I think the whole "war on terror" is just a misguided attempt at getting some revenge for what a group of independent people did. Launching a full scale war on the country were they had their base isn't the way to kill him. That's like destroying an entire peice of fruit just to get one seed out. I bet if we didn't have such a dumbass for a pres., something usefull would be done. In Bush's retardedness he saw the only way to kill Bin Laden was to attack Whatchamafucker-stan with a shit load of regular troops. He must not be aware that we have undercover agents that could probably kill him with as little trouble as to pay them. Bush is an ass, I should be president.

[Genghis Khan]

The British should have won the American war of Independence.
Would all this war and shit have happened if they had?

[Constipated BladeRunner]

The British should have won the American war of Independence.
Would all this war and shit have happened if they had?

You would have a minority free world, thanks to the stylings of Hitler and the Japanese- or even better, WW1 would still be going on!
FU)HEAD, AMERICA HAS DONE SO MUCH FOR THE WORLD THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT THE WORLD WOULD BE LIKE!
No telephones
No cars
No mass production
No Godfather movies
No airplanes
No internet
No computer games
NO NOTHING!

[Nirvana]

this discussion is getting silly and silly every minute

[Crow of Ill Omen]

I can't find menetic, either. I've tried several dictionaries, encyclopedia and search engines. The only place it turns up is in Google, which has 5 references - 1 to a foreign language site and 4 to a place where some Malaysian script kiddie is using it for an alias.

Regarding religious statistics, we should bear in mind that a proportion of the 2 billion are like me, my family and almost all my friends: when asked our relegion, we reply Christian, but do not believe or observe strictures in any way. I don't know whether other religions are similarly afflicted, but Islam certainly gives the impression of being more vigorous.

Regarding the end of the Cold War (which was not only between the USSR and the USA, but between the USSR and almost the entire western world plus many eastern nations) it was fought primariy on an economic level, with cultural elements spilling over from the adoption of capitalism (rising consumerism, for instance) and evolution doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Given the strength of some middle-eastern economies, I wouldn't think a similar cold war with them would necessarily have a similar outcome.

Regarding evolution, consider this: the march of evolution marks the gradual mutation of DNA, with a general trend toward viability. There are hang overs and dead-ends, but the is no going back (until we step outside nature with genetic manipulation). Economics and governance are not like that. At any time, the possibility of revolution exists, through which a different economic system or type of government can be put in place, even ones previously tried and failed; "backward" steps are possible.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

WOULD PBS LIE TO ME?

[Constipated BladeRunner]

I can't find menetic, either. I've tried several dictionaries, encyclopedia and search engines. The only place it turns up is in Google, which has 5 references - 1 to a foreign language site and 4 to a place where some Malaysian script kiddie is using it for an alias.

Regarding religious statistics, we should bear in mind that a proportion of the 2 billion are like me, my family and almost all my friends: when asked our relegion, we reply Christian, but do not believe or observe strictures in any way. I don't know whether other religions are similarly afflicted, but Islam certainly gives the impression of being more vigorous.

Regarding the end of the Cold War (which was not only between the USSR and the USA, but between the USSR and almost the entire western world plus many eastern nations) it was fought primariy on an economic level, with cultural elements spilling over from the adoption of capitalism (rising consumerism, for instance) and evolution doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Given the strength of some middle-eastern economies, I wouldn't think a similar cold war with them would necessarily have a similar outcome.

Regarding evolution, consider this: the march of evolution marks the gradual mutation of DNA, with a general trend toward viability. There are hang overs and dead-ends, but the is no going back (until we step outside nature with genetic manipulation). Economics and governance are not like that. At any time, the possibility of revolution exists, through which a different economic system or type of government can be put in place, even ones previously tried and failed; "backward" steps are possible.

THe revolution, or the election is the mutation of the organisim.
See what Iam getting at?