Sept. 11 and the War on Terror: Bullshit or Patriotism?

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What do you think of the War on Terror?

The War on Terror is excellent and we should continue.
15
32%
The War on Terror is bullshit and we should stop it.
23
49%
I couldn't care less.
9
19%
 
Total votes: 47

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James
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Post by James »

slavery of women in the arab world
If we are talking about Afghanistan here, it's not part of the Arab world. This is quite a serious social blunder.

This is a inaccurate generalisation anyway. There are some self proclaimed Islamic nations where all people, including women, do not enjoy basic human rights. But in most Arab and Islamic countries the situation is nothing like you describe it.

Islamic men and women are supposed to dress modestly, and that is part of their religious and often national culture. In most predominantly Islamic countries women aren't required by law to cover up.


So what are we talking about here, counties ruled by despotic regimes where its everyone who suffers, not just the women, or countries where people are merely exercising their freedom of religion?

But you cannot cross off the burhka or raping as punishment as a staple of culture-
He wasn't. And I'm not either.
"Ancient Greece was ahead of its time, and before our time. They had no TV, but they had lots of philosophers.
I, personally, would not want to sit all evening watching a philosopher."
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Post by James »

The computer was invented in Britan for WW2 aircraft.
RADAR was invented in britan
NUCLEAR FISSION WAS INVENTED BY AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS WHO WHERE KICKED OUTOF THE NEW HITLEARIN GERMANY, THEY WHERE AMERICANS!
Not only that, but Hungarians where only 2 members of the manhattan project. I live near the building where the first atom was spit, by the way.
The cavity magnetron was indeed invented in the UK, which was an important part of radar. But not all of it. The Germans also independantly developed effective radar. But the whole thing hinged on Marconis earlier work with radio waves.

The first computer was also invented in the UK by Turing, but for ULTRA work not aircraft. The US was close though, but von Neumann was busy with other stuff.


You see how it's all international really. I'll try and illustrate this in detial with the development of the bomb.

Edit

I'm talking out my arse, sorry! I should read what I post too ;-)

The original statement in Orange is false.

Rutherford demonstated the first artificial nuclear transformation.

Credit for first showing fission belongs to several groups: Meitner and Frisch (both now in Sweden, due to the Nazis) deserve the most credit, also worthy is Hahn (who remained in Germany, but still comunicated with Meitner), the Fermi group (still in Italy) and the Joliot-Curies (France).

Nuclear fisson was first demonstrated in the UK by Rutherford who came fron New Zealand.

end Edit

The first chain reaction was demonstated by Fermi, an Italian, in the US. Szillard, from hungary, first thought of it in the UK.

There were more than 2 hungarians involved with the Manhatten project: Teller and Ulam, who were also credited with the first workable H-bomb design (although the Soviet scientist Kurchatov (sp?) was close, IIRC), von Neumann, Szillard, plus more who I have forgotten (was Wigner hungarian?). Lets not forget the US, German, Italian, British, etc scientists.

Don't forget the contribution of the British Tube Alloys people, including the British advisory group (under Chadwick who discoverd the neutron, in the UK) who greatly helped the people at Los Alamos.

Don't forget the utterly vital contibutions of all of the Curies and the Joliot-Curies, in France. Or Hahn and Meitners work in Germany and, later for Meitner, Sweeden. Or Aston and the othe Brits (above) in the UK. Or Bohr in Denmark. Or Fermi, Segre et al in Italy. Or Lawrence and Alverez in the US.
Last edited by James on Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I, personally, would not want to sit all evening watching a philosopher."
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Post by Follower »

Constipated BladeRunner - actually when I post "innocent" ones I mean everybody. I don't want to say that America is bad boys and Asia are poor innocent victims. They all added enough shit in this bowl, what is called War on Terror. Some bastards are pushing countries for war to please their arrogance. Ordinary people need NO war, but what a good way to start one. Bush surely had enough reasons to push America in another slaughter. I suppose you live in America and your reaction on my words shows that you are ready for it. You see only what you want to see. I don't know if you understand me correctly... Do you know what the difference between free man and slave - slave is forced to do biding of the master, free man thinks that he is free and doing biding of his master by his own will...

James - I am serious. You can to cry angryly, but I think that Stalin was a great man. Yes, he killed millions, he almost pushed an Earth to the WW 3, but he was brilliant leader and could unite all the Earth. If we had more such people, we wouldn't never heard about war again. You may say that we will be planet of slaves... but we are already, so there is no difference.
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Post by Bulldog »

Wheeee what I love is the fact that 3000 Americans killed by terrorist attack upsets people.

How about 3000 Americans killed by disease outbreak
3000 Americans killed by flood
3000 Americans killed by rampaging hurricane
3000 people killed by bombs
3000 people killed by bombs that were dropped by people with Downs
3000 people killed by terror in the mideast
3000 Chinese killed in civil war
3000 Africans killed by aids
1 US soldier killed

OH WAIT THAT LAST ONE MADE THE FRONT PAGES.
Honestly, I love dearly my lifestyle (which I guess is American, since that's where I live) but GET SOME PERSPECTIVE. I sure right now someone will be all over me saying how they feel bad that all these people died, but reading a newspaper they wouldn't think twice about 'em.
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Post by Constipated BladeRunner »

Follower wrote:Constipated BladeRunner - actually when I post "innocent" ones I mean everybody. I don't want to say that America is bad boys and Asia are poor innocent victims. They all added enough shit in this bowl, what is called War on Terror. Some bastards are pushing countries for war to please their arrogance. Ordinary people need NO war, but what a good way to start one. Bush surely had enough reasons to push America in another slaughter. I suppose you live in America and your reaction on my words shows that you are ready for it. You see only what you want to see. I don't know if you understand me correctly... Do you know what the difference between free man and slave - slave is forced to do biding of the master, free man thinks that he is free and doing biding of his master by his own will...

James - I am serious. You can to cry angryly, but I think that Stalin was a great man. Yes, he killed millions, he almost pushed an Earth to the WW 3, but he was brilliant leader and could unite all the Earth. If we had more such people, we wouldn't never heard about war again. You may say that we will be planet of slaves... but we are already, so there is no difference.
Do you want to know what I see?
I see two flaming towers.
You are truly insane to call stalin brilliant. O sure, you know at the rate stalin was killing people the Soviet Union would be in the dark ages! Hitler was insane- stalin was evil. Hitler killed because what he thought was right in some perverted way. Stalin did it to hang on to power- a bit like O'Brien in 1984- the objective of the dictatorship in stalin's mind was not the utopia, but the dictatorship. EVEN LENIN HATED STALIN! EVERYONE HATED HIM! HE KILLED EVERYONE FROM LENIN'S REGIEM AND ALMOST DESTROYED NEP! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
AND YOU CALL ME BRAINWASHED?
JESUS CHRIST, I HOPE THIS IS NOT THE GENERAL CONSENSUS IN RUSSIA- IMAGINE WHAT THAT FASCIST PUTIN COULD DO!
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Post by Constipated BladeRunner »

Bulldog wrote:Wheeee what I love is the fact that 3000 Americans killed by terrorist attack upsets people.

How about 3000 Americans killed by disease outbreak
3000 Americans killed by flood
3000 Americans killed by rampaging hurricane
3000 people killed by bombs
3000 people killed by bombs that were dropped by people with Downs
3000 people killed by terror in the mideast
3000 Chinese killed in civil war
3000 Africans killed by aids
1 US soldier killed

OH WAIT THAT LAST ONE MADE THE FRONT PAGES.
Honestly, I love dearly my lifestyle (which I guess is American, since that's where I live) but GET SOME PERSPECTIVE. I sure right now someone will be all over me saying how they feel bad that all these people died, but reading a newspaper they wouldn't think twice about 'em.
THese are the continuous mechinations of our world- nothing new and nothiong that we are not sub-consciously aware of. A US soldier killied on the other hand is not something that happens every day, and I did not see any front pages for that matter
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Post by Constipated BladeRunner »

James wrote:
slavery of women in the arab world
If we are talking about Afghanistan here, it's not part of the Arab world. This is quite a serious social blunder.

This is a inaccurate generalisation anyway. There are some self proclaimed Islamic nations where all people, including women, do not enjoy basic human rights. But in most Arab and Islamic countries the situation is nothing like you describe it.

Islamic men and women are supposed to dress modestly, and that is part of their religious and often national culture. In most predominantly Islamic countries women aren't required by law to cover up.


So what are we talking about here, counties ruled by despotic regimes where its everyone who suffers, not just the women, or countries where people are merely exercising their freedom of religion?

But you cannot cross off the burhka or raping as punishment as a staple of culture-
He wasn't. And I'm not either.
The only countries that I am aware of that do not infore burhkas are the Sudan and Turkey, with Turkey being the leftest of the Islamic countries.
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Post by Walks with the Snails »

It's rather funny to see people accusing the Americans of overgeneralization when at the same time we're supposedly all fat, self-satisfied sheep with our heads up our asses, only caring about what's on TV tonight rather than whatever earthshatteringly important thing you worry about but really have no power to do anything about, brainwashed by the media which has an agenda against [insert country here]. Oh yeah, and we're all idiots because we were given two choices for President, and approximately half (of those that actually decided it was worth voting) decided a guy who supposedly makes Forrest Gump look like a nuclear (or I guess it would be noo-que-lar) physicist was better or at least not as bad as the alternative.

Wasn't there already some accusation of our own hypocrisy floating around somewhere in this soup? What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander I guess.
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Post by Condie »

I would just like to comment that all this "My countries better than your country, 'cause I say so!" bickering that a few of you are involving yourselves in is really quite immature, and in the great scheme of things, utterly pointless.

The sooner that everyone realises that we all live on the same spinning ball floating in space, the better off humanity will be. Really, think about it. Proclaiming that you are superior because you live in a different location - how the hell does that make any sense? Patriotism is just an understated form of discrimination, and the sooner it is abandoned the sooner the human race will be free to evolve.
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Post by the guardian »

Constipated BladeRunner:

your use of caps to spotlight your thoughts is realy annoying. cut that out, willya? im not using it, neither is james, it just makes you look like you like to scream everytime you express an opinion

here's an interesting fact i know about follower, even though i dont know him personaly- he's from america if im correct, to blame him as brainwashed for liking stain(and i like him too... he was insane true, paranoid and psychotic, but his carrot and stick mathod was very nice... you can both dislike and like a person for his deeds) is stupid.


the only country you're aware of that do not enforce religious traditions on others are turkey and sudan, but james stated that in most islamic countries its not enforced, so while you are not aware of it, he is, hows about taking his word on that one?

walk with snails: i like your approach....

condie: non of us is commenting like this, only constipated bladerunner seem to do that... i think patriotism is in a sense, a way to blind yourself... "my country's great" "we're doing what we must" sayings, without realy looking at the entire truth...
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Post by Crow of Ill Omen »

Maybe the world would have been a better place if nuclear fission had been left undiscovered.

CBR, forget for a minute comparing how the USA do things to the way other countries do them and look for the underlying motivations and attitudes. The people you hate so much are acting out of a desire to promote/protect that their way of life and value system. You, in this thread, are acting for exactly the same reasons. You are getting angry. You are making others angry. Conflict is the result. On an international scale, this type of conflict results in the horrors we want to avoid.

We cannot avoid conflict by "proving our way of life/value system is best." It's subjective and not open to proof. We avoid conflict by saying "I accept you are different to me," and letting people have their own cultures.

Clearly, the terrorists who committed the world Trade Centre atrocity are actively opposed to such an attitude, leaving us in a position where we have to physically protect ourselves from them by, probably, killing a large number of them. If we want it to stop there, we have to avoid promoting other conflict while we do so. For instance, we should not promote the killing of innocent middle-eastern citizens. It would naturally breed more hate. We might find that, in the course of rooting out the current organisations, we've caused enough resentment and hate to create several more of them.
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Post by Dark Xenomorph »

Frankly, I couldnt care less casue im Canadian. Nowdays, every Canadian remembers that speach Dubya gave to thank all the countrys that helped the war on terror get going by donating troops and crap like that. ( this was the very first speach he did, He interrupted Suvivor Africa, it was a crap show anyway ) Now Canada donated ships, Helicoptors, troops and more stuff. Now, plp think that the terrorists got inot the US by Canada's immigration law right? It was this reason why many Canadians think that Dubya did NOT include Canada, Jean Chirectin, or anything Candian in his speach. This was big news. I mean headlines news. And to this day, us Canadians living in our igloos and being lumberjacks ( eh? are u happy? I said it ) Still remember it.
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Post by Follower »

Guardian - I am from Russia. I am located temporary in America now, but this can be changed in any day. Anyway, there is no difference.

Constipated BladeRunner - Sigh... Stalin, Stalin - this is a hot topic for everyone. Terrible and feared... insane, sadist, bad boy - look around and tell me what the difference between Stalin and all other politics... Your dear Bush, did you hear rumours, that he knew about all these terrorists. Bullshit, you'll tell? Ok, than ask yourself why somebody need it - rating, pal... fear of electorat, who will see Bush as savior... Putin used the same stuff in Russia. Chechnia - do you think there is any difference. There is no terrorists or war on terror. There is only politics and fight for power. So, what's the difference between Stalin and Bush? Bush is more economical, than Stalin... That's all. One guy said - "All power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly." Bush began to realise it...

America makes me smile... I tell you. When I see people, singing hymns on the streets in a several hours after terrible act of terror or hanging flags in all corners it looks strange... Is it patriotism? May be yes, I don't even want to understand mystrious "american" soul...

And about second part of your impressive post - you say Stalin wanted dictatorship. He used ideas of such men as - Marks, Engels, Lenin. He used most of their ideas... the termin "dictatorship of prolatarian" it was used by Marks, by the way. If you will say that Marks is crasy, go and burn half of your books. They are written by him or his followers. Stalin simply used what he could to create powerful country. Yes, for dozens of years he created country, equal to USA... in economic, by the way, too. Only later it was lost... You say everybody hate him. May be in America he do, I don't know. Terrible and feared Stalin. I know clearly that he sent millions of innocent people into the slowly and painful death, but what else he had to do. Without it Russia would fell into another reign of anarchy, when people were eating each other - there were such facts. In all other world Stalin is remembered. Stalin or Hitler, you say. Hitler was lackey of money. He was "deamon of capitalism"... He was supported by large industry capital and gained power. He was gaining only one thing - German is number one, all other countries are rubbish(sounds familiar, don't you think)... Stalin wanted dictatorship, but everybody would be equal there at least. Equal as slaves if you want, but it sounds good for me. I am ready to hear your angry cries...

You say that I am brainwashed... Well, may be, because I don't like that like most. I say what I want to say and when I want. Don't worry, Stalin is hated all the same in Russia. Fasict Putin could do nothing... He is dickless moron. He looked so terrible from the screen, but he is helpless baby in real life. What can he do? What can Russia do now? To start WW 3 and finish all that shit, that is called life... Nope, I don't think that most will like it. In all other ways Russia could do nothing. Stalin could do something to change it, Putin can only smile and say that all will be fine. Russia lives only because it sell oil, without it it will be in ass again...
World of FO is coming... too fast for my liking
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Post by Dark Xenomorph »

"No people, No problem!" Stalin

Russia has so much oil that they could be heating all the houses in their country for the next 70 years.
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Post by Follower »

Do you know how expansive this oil is? It is located on the north and it will cost triple more expensive than Asia's oil, which is located near the surface...

"No man, no problem" it will be more exactly. He liked people, he didn't like man... individual...
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Post by the guardian »

crow of Ill: i think you're wrong when you say that it might be better if fission might never of been invented...its a cheap power source, pretty safe(yes, im well aware of the previous "incidents", but they were human error based), and its the most logical solution since our natural resources are dying out...

follower: realy? sweet, i love russians, names, language, you name it. you got to admit, stalin was crazy, paranoid and such, but i liked him anyway, plus, he looked like an old grandfather... kinda ironic
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Post by Dark Xenomorph »

I just went to LeninGrad and it was beautiful. Kazan Catheral, St Assic's and Peterhoff were all really sweet. The thing i hated was that my father, got pickpocketed in the metro. he lost 175 american dollars and his driver liensce. Great Country, the people ant so good. A funny thing was that LeninGrad is 300 years old but Canada is not even 200 ( i dont know about that )
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Post by Jeff »

You were tourists , you get pickpocketed easily if you aren't careful . My friend lost 160€ while we were in France . Why ? Because he's a stupid dumb fuck that didn't take care of his bling bling .
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Post by Dark Xenomorph »

We did nt look like tourists. we got square shoes, lblack clothing and my mother uglify herself.
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Post by Jeff »

It's just that most of the locals don't check the map every five minutes.
Last edited by Jeff on Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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