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[Thor Kaufman]

Toxic wins.

[Smiley]

Wins what?

There's no winning, there's trying to reach an understanding or sympathy between posters, but so far I'm convinced he has no objective viewpoint at all, and he thinks I'm a retard of gigantic proportions.

And then there are the onlookers like yourself who don't contribute anything at all, but incitement.

[Thor Kaufman]

Not really, flower.

You two are just waving your cocks at each other virtually.
You being the douchebag as usual and Toxic is bored, I guess. You two should meat up somewhere instead to get off that steam.

If that weren't the case you might as well have stopped when you reached the point where you saw Fallout 3 as a (shit) game of its own, not at all related to its predecessors while Toxic sees it in a similar fashion except that he sees Fallout in the line of its predecessors hence heightening the expectations for that game that it can't fulfil.
In any case Fallout 3 is probably going to be utter dogshit like almost every new game in the last few years.

[St. Toxic]

Since you're so far out on a limb, let me give you a little push.
There, that's better.

Fucking someone has never been this unsatisfying or sterile. What happened DAC?

Well done on judging a game of one of the most pointless parts that are now just a fad that gets added to every game, be it good or not.
Shit, all you can see from there is an icon, a title and what it's worth in points..!

And we also get to see what sort of shit we get to do in Fallout 3. I'm not raving about achievments in general -- fuck em' -- I'm just pointing out what we've got on the table, and those achievments have some goods on display.

So you admit that you don't have a shred of ability to judge a game objectively.
Well then, get over yourself, stop going emo and try to keep your wrists intact, mm'kay?

Like you do with WoW? I admit that there is no such thing as objective judgment in the world of man, as every man brings more to the table than bare facts and mathematical reasoning. If you want objective, get a machine to write you a review.

Untill that day we'll have to settle with this type of shit.

Also, that emo shit is so fucking passé. :artfag:

You say people, like they all generally loved the bomb and worshipped it.
That's one community, we haven't seen the others?
What's strange about a group going wacko and seeing "the truth" about one thing or another?

Distorted minds = fine. I don't mind seeing people rolling around in FEV goo, thinking it'll make them TEH UBERLEET, but this is Fallout fyi and you can't do that without some sort of consequence to it. Building your little settlement around an active nuclear device in the Fallout world would have to Ghoulify the community, kill them or make them mutate in some other fabulous fashion. If not that, then they'd probably abandon the settlement at the first sign of death / mutation, hence making this whole scenario unreasonable.

Overall they've made radiation not only harmless, but actually helpful. Drinking irradiated water for healing? What genious thought up that gem? Fuck it, forget it; it's all tacky and pointless, and even if they had built an excellent, albeit stale, replica of a Fallouty wasteland for you to frequent, there's more than enough stupid shit in the game to draw you out of it. The presentation, the thoughts behind it, the execution -- it's all a complete failure.

And also, fuck the "different" communities in Fo3. There's not going to be anything more advanced than there was in Oblivionez, so there are no "cool locations" coming to the rescue of the retarded bomb worshippers. It's going to be Imperial City community, where everyone is a douchebag because they have been worked on the most; the village community where people are almost douchebags but not quite there, because they've been fleshed out in a scarce and hurried fashion, and the Evil-guyz communities, which will be raiders who entertain the notion of killing alot of good guys, and will either attack you on sight or ask you to kill some good guys. Maybe, just maybe, they've made a Broken Hills sort of place, just for shits and giggles, but even that is stretching it.

I said I don't judge a game based on it. (grafix)

They had colorful textures, and a polygon count that was about a quarter of anything decent today.

Thanks for misquoting me again though.

Anything for the fans.

Point. Hence my oblivious(lol) little world where there are no Fo3's, only spinoff's.

So what you're saying is, because it's a shitty game, it's shittyness excuses, err, itself and makes it a good game? Whatever man, it's your party.

What about them? They had colorful textures, and a polygon count that was about a quarter of anything decent today.

And still they had better visual effects, more fluent animation and presented a more lifelike world than that of Fallout 3. Don't even get me started on ai.

WoW is a good MMO.

It's just Anarchy Online in a Warcraft/Fantasy setting, with a dumbed down skill handling system and minus the really cool engineering 'puzzles'.

I don't get it, honestly. Is it just the way it works? That by imposing more and more limitations on an established concept you attract more and more dumbfucks, ready to praise you and your fascist visions? Historically, t'would seem humans like giving up rights and freedoms; maybe it's genetic? Maybe that makes WoW a good mmo? It taps into the subconcious desire of the average human, to shield himself from the bigger picture, the open world, by assuming a fetus-like position and pushing himself back into the womb?

It's not a good RPG, but that's not the reason I play MMO's.

That's a given. But what is the reason you play mmo's? I mean, there is a reason?

Oh I hold it dear alright, I'm just not acknowledging the 3 as a followup, and slashing my wrists like a fucking emo wanker like you bitches, over it.
The Fallout legacy has ended, there's nothing more to talk about on that front.

Was that your initial argument? I'm starting to forget what the discussion was about in the first place. Something about the "feel" being right, and FO3 being a potentially ok game? I mean, if it's not utter shit, why would you discard it as a followup? If it is utter shit, why are you defending it?

Apparently you haven't accepted that, and insist on letting bethsoft get to you. Who's the fucking wanker now you moron?

You're still the wanker, you just have your cards mixed up. You see, you're defending Beth for making a worthless console turd with the Fallout stamp of approval, and by doing so you're insulting the integrity of Rabid, who considers this to be a vile act, wether he has accepted the fact that it has already been done or not. It's akin to defending the Yanks for bombing a childrens hospital, post the drop, simply because there's no way to change the fact that it has already happened, while in a discussion with a badly burned Albanian boy. Yes, you're still the wanker.

There's no winning, there's trying to reach an understanding or sympathy between posters

I don't think it's possible to be a bigger loser than this guy.

You two are just waving your cocks at each other virtually.

My virtual cock is so big, it doesn't fit in Smiley's virtual mouth; hence the gibberish continues.

[Caleb]

to be blunt and to the point: if they include a fan editing module i wouldn't be surprised if something decent could come of it. thats going to be the ONLY redeeming value..

[Smiley]

You two are just waving your cocks at each other virtually.
You being the douchebag as usual and Toxic is bored, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact that you're still following our discussion with increasing interest. Do you like cock waving?

Thing is, I don't see you invest any time agreeing with anything rather than the fact that you support toxic. You can't even be bothered to say what? Or what you disagree with me about?
Because you think I'm a douchebag?

At least I bother.

And we also get to see what sort of shit we get to do in Fallout 3. I'm not raving about achievments in general -- fuck em' -- I'm just pointing out what we've got on the table, and those achievments have some goods on display.

Fair and square. That's not what I picked up from your previous post though.

Like you do with WoW? I admit that there is no such thing as objective judgment in the world of man, as every man brings more to the table than bare facts and mathematical reasoning. If you want objective, get a machine to write you a review.

Untill that day we'll have to settle with this type of shit.

I find it quite easy to be objective.
I could go into a rant about the good and bad parts about wow if it had any relevant meaning, but the thing is, what is the purpose of the game, or at least, what can it amount to for any user?

It's a time-waster; you can log in for 10 minutes, do a couple of daily quests, chat with guild-mates, and log off.
It's a sort of deathmatch game in the battlegrounds(because even if every cunt on the planet whines about balance, the game is actually fairly well balanced.)
It has it's competitive gameplay, in both PvP and general content.
It has a system for making a really neat character, which is the bread and butter of any game, be it a brainless hack-n-slash, a serious RPG or an MMO.

It does any and all of that very well.


What's the point of the new Fallout 3?

I honestly think bethsoft wants to go in a new direction and walk a bit away from the fantasy setting. Fallout is their new test-zone, because I don't believe even for a second that they're trying to milk the brand.
The original fans fucking HATE them, and I'll admit, with reason.

So alright, besides that, what might this game offer?
An interesting setting seen from a new/fresh perspective(because they might add some cool things or ideas), a potential inspiration for new games to come(hopefully better or with more obvious potential) and the best part, a new fanbase that will be interested in the old games.
And THAT, will be cool, because we get to see a new generation that might actually like them, and want them more.
Do I really believe that it'll incite a massive uproar for the feel of the old games? Not all that much, but having hope is more fun than not.

Distorted minds = fine. I don't mind seeing people rolling around in FEV goo, thinking it'll make them TEH UBERLEET, but this is Fallout fyi and you can't do that without some sort of consequence to it. Building your little settlement around an active nuclear device in the Fallout world would have to Ghoulify the community, kill them or make them mutate in some other fabulous fashion. If not that, then they'd probably abandon the settlement at the first sign of death / mutation, hence making this whole scenario unreasonable.

Overall they've made radiation not only harmless, but actually helpful. Drinking irradiated water for healing? What genious thought up that gem? Fuck it, forget it; it's all tacky and pointless, and even if they had built an excellent, albeit stale, replica of a Fallouty wasteland for you to frequent, there's more than enough stupid shit in the game to draw you out of it. The presentation, the thoughts behind it, the execution -- it's all a complete failure.

And also, fuck the "different" communities in Fo3. There's not going to be anything more advanced than there was in Oblivionez, so there are no "cool locations" coming to the rescue of the retarded bomb worshippers. It's going to be Imperial City community, where everyone is a douchebag because they have been worked on the most; the village community where people are almost douchebags but not quite there, because they've been fleshed out in a scarce and hurried fashion, and the Evil-guyz communities, which will be raiders who entertain the notion of killing alot of good guys, and will either attack you on sight or ask you to kill some good guys. Maybe, just maybe, they've made a Broken Hills sort of place, just for shits and giggles, but even that is stretching it.

Alright I understand your fears and suspicions.
I haven't seen anything that proves or leads me to think about that or the opposite though, the part that there might not be any interesting places at all.

I said I don't judge a game based on it. (grafix)

They had colorful textures, and a polygon count that was about a quarter of anything decent today.

I don't get your point. Where have I mentioned that any of those games are bad because of graphics?
Why would I ever want to touch system shock 2 or deus ex, if graphics bothered me at all?

So what you're saying is, because it's a shitty game, it's shittyness excuses, err, itself and makes it a good game? Whatever man, it's your party.

No, it just lowers my expectations, both in terms of sticking to the lore/ideas, and what to expect from the gameplay.
Right now I see it as a SS2/Bioshock wannabe, set in the fallout setting.
Alright, I can roll with that as something completely new.

And still they had better visual effects, more fluent animation and presented a more lifelike world than that of Fallout 3. Don't even get me started on ai.

I'll have to try it first before I'm convinced.

It's just Anarchy Online in a Warcraft/Fantasy setting, with a dumbed down skill handling system and minus the really cool engineering 'puzzles'.

I don't get it, honestly. Is it just the way it works? That by imposing more and more limitations on an established concept you attract more and more dumbfucks, ready to praise you and your fascist visions? Historically, t'would seem humans like giving up rights and freedoms; maybe it's genetic? Maybe that makes WoW a good mmo? It taps into the subconcious desire of the average human, to shield himself from the bigger picture, the open world, by assuming a fetus-like position and pushing himself back into the womb?

Setting aside the obvious snide remarks, you make an interesting point.
The game is dumbed down, to a certain degree.

Financially it proves a point, the easier it is to get in, start playing and getting good, the better. It sells easier, it makes people feel good, and it doesn't demand much from them. That way, it's a fucking awesome game, because of the 10 million(!) active accounts.

It's not an RPG though, and I'd never call it that. I guess I like to think of it as Diablo online, a slightly more elaborate diablo game with a lot more storyline and customization, and a lot more activities to do apart from clicking on the same monster again and again.

I like the storyline, or at least the feel of it in the beginning, when everything was badass-manowar-heavymetal-esque, and it was about ripping eachother apart, and liking it.
The aliens from space and demons from other dimensions twists that have been more elaborate now... not so much. But I still enjoy the small stories here and there.

Keep in mind that I didn't really know much about warhammer at the time, so the universe from WarCraft is the "first" in my mind.

That's a given. But what is the reason you play mmo's? I mean, there is a reason?

Aside from what I wrote above? To keep in touch with some friends, and because it's addictive.
Also, the social part of it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the friends I've met through that game are really awesome people, and we've done some crazy shit together that makes it all the gametime in wow worth it.

Was that your initial argument? I'm starting to forget what the discussion was about in the first place. Something about the "feel" being right, and FO3 being a potentially ok game? I mean, if it's not utter shit, why would you discard it as a followup? If it is utter shit, why are you defending it?

Because we as a community should still try to have at least a bit of an open mind.

Here's the thing, we all have very different opinions on what DAC is or isn't. Right now, I see a bunch of losers who think this is a freehaven for all their aggressions and bad manners.
Take dreadfuck, who without his sometime funny or insightful comments would be a horrible influence to have around.
He's admitted it himself, he's a dick. And I don't like other dicks, I'm fine with my own.

Seriously though, he might be a nice guy, rabidpeabrain might actually say something insightful once in a lifetime and there are others who might be just fine and dandy people indeed.

Now, a lot of people pretty much agree, who the fuck am I to judge anyone?
Well, I happen to be a chosen moderator, and my judgement does carry at least a bit of weight in forming this community, and carrying it on to becomming hopefully something bustling with life again soon.

You're still the wanker, you just have your cards mixed up. You see, you're defending Beth for making a worthless console turd with the Fallout stamp of approval, and by doing so you're insulting the integrity of Rabid, who considers this to be a vile act, wether he has accepted the fact that it has already been done or not. It's akin to defending the Yanks for bombing a childrens hospital, post the drop, simply because there's no way to change the fact that it has already happened, while in a discussion with a badly burned Albanian boy. Yes, you're still the wanker.

The way I see it, this pointless hatefest doesn't do any good at all.
We've proven all we could to bethsoft that fans don't want this game.
They've replied and said, we don't give a shit.
That's what's happened anyway, and now it's time to move on to new tactics, and for that to happen, we need to get past the release.

New fans will come, they will give their opinion on the matter, and we KNOW that a lot of them will think the older games were much more awesome. New fan developed content might pop up, beth might actually listen and follow some of the development and interest in the franchise.

THAT'S where change might happen. Nothing before then.

It's called looking at the big picture.

My virtual cock is so big, it doesn't fit in Smiley's virtual mouth; hence the gibberish continues.

The gibberish continues because to a certain degree you either respect my opinion(or the fact that I have one which isn't bandwagon hating), or because you want to prove something to me.
If you didn't, you wouldn't bother posting a reply every single time that I have.

The same goes the other way around, even if I don't agree with you.

[S4ur0n27]

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Up until Smiley's last post I was almost convinced that this debate would end up with one of them leaving DACK in disgust or that toxic is just wanting to get a rise out of smiley.

Toxic and Smiley kind of represent two faction of the fallout fans, the ones who are forgiving and loving and the ones who ride motorcycles with rock and roll and slap people in the face.

Personally, I feel like smiley in that this may not be exactly like fallout but it could be decent. If I were to judge it as a pure fallout sequel I would be much harder, but bethesda made it obivous that they were just going to what everyone else is doing. Considering how most games coming out today are all illusions into think your playing a really awesome game but your not because what your doing doesn't really matter and when you figure that out you get mad. Thats kind of how I felt with mass effect, I felt like the game was tricking me all along with some very minor choices.

Look I don't even know what I'm talking about since I rarely do but I just want a good RPG with some real choice and consequences like the games of Christmas past.

[Mismatch]

Toxic and Smiley kind of represent two faction of the fallout fans, the ones who are forgiving and loving and the ones who ride motorcycles with rock and roll and slap people in the face.

The thing is... I've never quite trusted loving and forgiving people. They seem to be all cheers and smiles... and yet, somehow, they end up fucking your girlfriend in the ass (tho' to you she always said no to anal), while she's screaming for more.

This is more or less what Smiley is doing here. He's holding fallout down while Pete and Todd are drilling it good.

It aint right.

[Thor Kaufman]

You two are just waving your cocks at each other virtually.
You being the douchebag as usual and Toxic is bored, I guess.

Doesn't change the fact that you're still following our discussion with increasing interest. Do you like cock waving?

yes

Thing is, I don't see you invest any time agreeing with anything rather than the fact that you support toxic. You can't even be bothered to say what? Or what you disagree with me about?
Because you think I'm a douchebag?

At least I bother.

You both have your points but I don't like your guts and I don't like Bethesda. Add the chance of Fallout 3 being a playworthy game (i.e. 1 Kelvin) and there you go.
I'm a person that rather takes the chance to not play a game that is most definitely utter bollocks than most definitely waste my time with it. It's kind of maths, like, totally objective.

[rabidpeanut]

Bethesda should stick to the elder scrolls.

[serializer]

Stop whining you retards. Bethesda have been trying really hard to make an awesome game and to be honest the footage looks amazing, about a 1000 times better than oblivion. So STFU, go and cry on your own in your room because you've got no friends, don't even bother buying this game 'cos you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it, and come back when you've got something constructive to say. Idiots.

[Blargh]

IT HAS BEGUN.

[Mismatch]

Stop whining you retards.

Somehow your eloquence fail to impress me.

Bethesda have been trying really hard to make an awesome game and to be honest the footage looks amazing, about a 1000 times better than oblivion.

1000 times better huh? Well... guess what.
No matter how many times you multilply shit All you get is
<blink>MORE SHIT</blink>

don't even bother buying this game

oh we won't, don't worry about that.

'cos you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it

Yeah... you're probably right, the wittiness of them xbox games is waaay over our collective head.

and come back when you've got something constructive to say

yessir. I shall evolve into a fanboi, and thus grow constructive!
"Woooow Pete, your cock is huuuge!"

Idiots.

[entertainer]

make an awesome game
the footage looks amazing
about a 1000 times better than oblivion
So STFU
go and cry on your own in your room because you've got no friends
you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it

[rabidpeanut]

Stop whining you retards. Bethesda have been trying really hard to make an awesome game and to be honest the footage looks amazing, about a 1000 times better than oblivion. So STFU, go and cry on your own in your room because you've got no friends, don't even bother buying this game 'cos you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it, and come back when you've got something constructive to say. Idiots.

Magical idea.

Get the fuck out.

You are most likely someone who has not even played a game from before 2004. So shut your 5 year old mouth, leave, meet up with and then open your mouth again.

[St. Toxic]

I find it quite easy to be objective.

I'd like a demonstration, plux!1

the game is fairly well balanced

It has a system for making a really neat character, which is the bread and butter of any game

It does any and all of that very well.

Sounds like biased opinion to me. I thought the character creation aspect was dumb as dirt, the balance way off and that it in fact ripped off other mmo's fairly badly. Also, I don't necessarily agree that "making neat characters" is the "bread n' butter" of a hack-n-slash, so we have different opinions on what is supposed to be factual data.

Secondly, you've avoided mentioning features that have a negative sound to them, and might turn players off from giving WoW a try, which in an objective review should balance out with the positives. What you did instead is mention a few features you consider redeeming to the game, which is the equivalent of saying "This game is good. You should try it". Certainly not an objective view to take.

What's the point of the new Fallout 3?

One of those rhetorical questions that an objective review could answer? "I know what the point is lul! I r smartypants and u all don't get it shite ok?"

I honestly think bethsoft wants to go in a new direction and walk a bit away from the fantasy setting.

FACT

Fallout is their new test-zone, because I don't believe even for a second that they're trying to milk the brand.

FACT

The original fans fucking HATE them, and I'll admit, with reason.

Err FACT.

So alright, besides that, what might this game offer?

"You cannot sit in owned post-apocalyptic furniture!"

An interesting setting seen from a new/fresh perspective(because they might add some cool things or ideas), a potential inspiration for new games to come(hopefully better or with more obvious potential) and the best part, a new fanbase that will be interested in the old games.

FACT. FACT AND FACT

And THAT, will be cool, because we get to see a new generation that might actually like them, and

This isn't working man. You're not being objective, you're just doing the age old peace in the world naive bullshit hippie subroutine on FO3, and just saying "I hope it'll turn out ok" and "I think it'll do X, Y and Z" without going over any evidence to support that claim, or worse, using 'because I think' as evidence, which proves you don't and makes you sound like a 5 year old trying to form his first line of thought.

By what you've shown, you're no less biased than I am, only you're biased in a different direction. You bring forth no coherent argument for why I'm wrong in assuming the opposite of what you've just said and, worse, no argument whatsoever for why you're supposed to be right.

If anything, from what we've seen so far, Beth is not taking the project as seriously as some fans are, meaning they're not as into it as they should be, considering statements such as "We're fans, and we're doing this for the fans." They're not going into a "different direction" because they've kept most every single element from their previous game, in this "new" game. If Fallout 3 is their "test zone", which I interpret as a mix of shooting gallery and sealed chamber, they're in it to muck about and see if they can get any good at it, while making a buck in the process, which is "milking a brand" when it comes to the purchase and torching of an established franchise, so basicly you shot yourself down within that one sentence.

So far Beth has failed to bring any innovation to the table, and while it will inspire other games if it sells well enough (like Oblivion or WoW) it will not inspire anything new, only the rehash of old concepts and ye' good ole' bandwagon jumping. And while you have a point, that people, who've never heard of Fallout, will and have tried the earlier games, so far it generally seems, from what I've heard about it myself, that they're unsatisfied with what they've seen in the old games, probably because they went into it with a post-apoc free-roam shooter mindset, as what set them on the path was the FO3 hype. You'd have better hopes of Diablo 3 attracting people to the Fallouts, via the isometric chain of command; "I like Diablo 3! I will play Diablo 1 & 2! I'd like to try a deeper game within the same sort of gameplay enviroment! I'll try the old Black-Isle games! I'll try Fallout! Hey, this was pretty cool! I'll go rave on a forum!"

Lastly, if Fallout 3 is widely successful, Bethesda will not make any alterations to their game mechanics to bring it any closer to a "real" Fallout game, simply because doing so would help to alienate their "new" fanbase. If Fallout 3 is unsuccessful, chances that they'll hassle to make a "real" Fallout game, instead of just dropping the franchise off as a bad investment, are virtually non existant.

Alright I understand your fears and suspicions.
I haven't seen anything that proves or leads me to think about that or the opposite though, the part that there might not be any interesting places at all.

Usually, if a game shows off a location in a set of promotional videos, it's a game-setter location, to put some water in your mouth and ants up your ass so that you go buy the game first thing in the morning. If what we've seen in the videos, or at least, what I've seen in the videos, while you continuously have acid flashbacks, is the best that they have to offer, there's really not much to look forward to for "interesting places", unless your definition of an "interesting place" is a combat heavy dungeon-like enviroment (which might be the case since you apparently enjoy WoW) I'd suggest you give up hope on that one.

I don't get your point. Where have I mentioned that any of those games are bad because of graphics?

T'was a snide remark. Sounded like you were judging them harshly from a graphical standpoint.

Besides, I gotta say, it's not how many polys you have on your character; it's how you use them. We're still in the age of low-poly models; that's why we have normal mapping up our ass everywhere we turn, and that's one of the reasons why the textures look "colorful" in comparison. Painkiller still holds a decent record for high-poly maps, which few modern games see fit to break seeing as it puts alot of stress on the engine. The other reason for "colorful" looking textures, is sparse use of specular mapping, which isn't a tech issue but a design issue; I don't see why every surface has to reflect light as if it were made of glass.

A "next gen" makeover for most games in the 2002-2005 range, wouldn't take any time or effort, really, as long as the game engine can keep up with it. You up your basic shader algorythm, add normal and specular mapping (which can be done by converting detail maps with half-decent end results) and, for a subtle touch you redo the shadow calculation a couple of extra times, for softer shadows and then you can add/update the bump map if you really feel it necessary. The core stuff need hardly even be touched, as long as the textures are high-res enough, so it's all down to polish.

The trend we've been seeing in graphics is that the core is usually patched up in a sloppy fashion, and then the polish is applied methodically untill it covers the shit up almost completely. Some people get fooled by it, and I don't see why. FO3 is, as I said, a different story, with even the polish applied sloppily, making it look more like ghoul-sex than any "nuxt genz" game to date, except maybe Mercs2 which looks just like Soldner would do with dynamic lighting.

Why would I ever want to touch system shock 2 or deus ex, if graphics bothered me at all?

Because good games make you forget about their flaws, and, as with Fallout, sounds and settings can overpower graphics for "immurshun". Apparently, nowadays this is commonly regarded as a way to overcome a technological limitation from which we no longer suffer, and as such is easily discarded.

No, it just lowers my expectations, both in terms of sticking to the lore/ideas, and what to expect from the gameplay.
Right now I see it as a SS2/Bioshock wannabe, set in the fallout setting.
Alright, I can roll with that as something completely new.

I'd suggest you lower your expectations some more.

Setting aside the obvious snide remarks

No snideness intended. I'm literally stunned.

The game is dumbed down, to a certain degree.

To a degree where it becomes dumber than games that were intented to be dumb to begin with? Now that's dumb.

Financially it proves a point, the easier it is to get in, start playing and getting good, the better. It sells easier, it makes people feel good, and it doesn't demand much from them.

That is certainly true. What I don't understand is how these people, who apparently have issues with getting into games because of a bad case of "dumb", manage to turn their computer on and keep track of their account name and password to be able to log on in the first place.

Financially, catering to idiots is always going to be more lucrative. You can sell them any old sidewinder shit, if you've already got them on the hook, and they won't bitch or whine unless you start stepping on their toes and trying to sell them the pain.

That way, it's a fucking awesome game, because of the 10 million(!) active accounts.

It's a major jewing accomplishment, but not an awesome game. A shit game, made for numbskulls, that sells at the rate of free cake. Impressive as a phenomenon, but you do have to be an idiot to like the actual game, don't you?

It's not an RPG though, and I'd never call it that.

Why do you keep repeating that? I never compared it to rpg's, and you would have to be retarded to try. (And we've all seen it done)

I guess I like to think of it as Diablo online, a slightly more elaborate diablo game with a lot more storyline and customization, and a lot more activities to do apart from clicking on the same monster again and again.

How "slightly" is it more elaborate? And what is the story, and how does it have "more" of a story than Diablo? As for the customization, are we talking visual or actual customization? And what are these activities of which you speak? Do you mean the non-combat skills?

Keep in mind that I didn't really know much about warhammer at the time, so the universe from WarCraft is the "first" in my mind.

The first "what"? If it came out in the form of a book, publishing could make due with a guy drawing colorful pictures.

To keep in touch with some friends, and because it's addictive.

So why not just drink or drop acid on a regular basis? What separates the two?

Also, the social part of it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the friends I've met through that game are really awesome people, and we've done some crazy shit together that makes it all the gametime in wow worth it.

Makes it all "worth it" as in, it was a huge waste of time but I met some fun people? So we have a chat with some filler thrown in for good measure, and everybody creams their pants? No, I don't see it. Much like Furcadia, it appears to be a front-end for people of "irregular" mindsets, if any at all are present, to get together and toss their bullshit, which isn't really a "game" in my book, because in the end there are no winners.

Because we as a community should still try to have at least a bit of an open mind.

So why is your mind closed to the game being completely retarded, as I have said on numerous occasions? You feel the need to close-mindedly argue against my points, instead spilling your biased shit all over the place, while advocating open mindedness and objectivity? Hidden agenda or stupidity - u b the judge.

Here's the thing, we all have very different opinions on what DAC is or isn't. Right now, I see a bunch of losers who think this is a freehaven for all their aggressions and bad manners.
Take dreadfuck, who without his sometime funny or insightful comments would be a horrible influence to have around.
He's admitted it himself, he's a dick. And I don't like other dicks, I'm fine with my own.

His influence on the DAC mentality is about as big as yours, so while I don't consider him a worwhile poster, his presence doesn't bother me. If he was a newsposter or mod; that would be different.

Seriously though, he might be a nice guy, rabidpeabrain might actually say something insightful once in a lifetime and there are others who might be just fine and dandy people indeed. Now, a lot of people pretty much agree, who the fuck am I to judge anyone?

You can judge anyone you want, in whichever way you want; I doubt anyone would give half a fuck about it. It's forcing your judgement of other people on other people that riles folks up.

Well, I happen to be a chosen moderator, and my judgement does carry at least a bit of weight in forming this community, and carrying it on to becomming hopefully something bustling with life again soon.

So you want to fill the dying ant colony with worms, to feel good about yourself. Jump off the pedestal; whatever position of "virtual powah" ( ) you're in, you're still just a guy jerking yourself off. You're not an artisté, or a leader, and you have no place trying to form anything, unless we're talking feces of your own production.

The way I see it, this pointless hatefest doesn't do any good at all.
We've proven all we could to bethsoft that fans don't want this game.
They've replied and said, we don't give a shit.

The way I see it, this pointless "Meh"-fest doesn't do any good at all. We've proven all we could to you that DAC doesn't want your well educated opinions. You act all "Bethsoft" about it.

That's what's happened anyway, and now it's time to move on to new tactics, and for that to happen, we need to get past the release.

Ah, so you have a plan. What about the whole "get over it" routine? How do you expect to keep the sparks while extinguishing the fire or, more appropriately, the hot coals?

New fans will come, they will give their opinion on the matter, and we KNOW that a lot of them will think the older games were much more awesome. New fan developed content might pop up, beth might actually listen and follow some of the development and interest in the franchise.

It doesn't even look like they're going to drop mod tools for the game. The interest Beth holds in the franchise is skin deep, and overshadowed by their self-interest. And even if pressure was applied from enough interested parties to change the development of future Fallout titles to better adapt to the established canon and lessen the gap between the Fallout of ye' olde' and NEXTGENZ Fallout, Beth has no experience of making anything other than shoddy FPS/RPG/Sandbox type games, and would not be able to produce anything resembling the originals, without completely outsourcing the project.

THAT'S where change might happen. Nothing before then.

Nothing after either. No one in their right mind could be expecting any positive change; it's as you said, Fallout died and now the corpse is being raped. You can't deny people the right to vent about it.

It's called looking at the big picture.

Only if the "big picture" consists of optical illusions for imagery. You're just jerking yourself off here, and no one's going to buy your extrusion.

The gibberish continues because to a certain degree you either respect my opinion(or the fact that I have one which isn't bandwagon hating), or because you want to prove something to me.
If you didn't, you wouldn't bother posting a reply every single time that I have.

What can I say? I love waving my cock around. You're a long time member of DAC, and wether you're Einstein or a nimrod, you have a say and deserve an answer; that's a right that comes with long-term membership. The 15 page thread where Rosh argued long and hard with Haris comes to mind.

Stop whining you retards. Bethesda have been trying really hard to make an awesome game and to be honest the footage looks amazing, about a 1000 times better than oblivion. So STFU, go and cry on your own in your room because you've got no friends, don't even bother buying this game 'cos you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it, and come back when you've got something constructive to say. Idiots.

Stop whining you retard. DAC has been trying really hard to whine about Fallout 3, and the rants so far look amazing, about a 1000 times better than anything you'll find at Nma. So GTFO, go and take a long walk off of a short pier, because you probably hang out in harbors anyway as you are ugly and can only purchase sexual favors off of prostitutes at the bottom of the food-chain. Don't even bother reading these forums, because you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it, and come back when you have something constructive to say. Jackass.

[cazsim83]

Stop whining you retards. Bethesda have been trying really hard to make an awesome game and to be honest the footage looks amazing, about a 1000 times better than oblivion. So STFU, go and cry on your own in your room because you've got no friends, don't even bother buying this game 'cos you probably don't have the sense of humour to appreciate it, and come back when you've got something constructive to say. Idiots.

obvious troll is obvious

[Smiley]

Sounds like biased opinion to me. I thought the character creation aspect was dumb as dirt, the balance way off and that it in fact ripped off other mmo's fairly badly. Also, I don't necessarily agree that "making neat characters" is the "bread n' butter" of a hack-n-slash, so we have different opinions on what is supposed to be factual data.

Creating, developing and enhancing your character goes all the way back from roleplaying, text-games and spring from life itself.
It's a rewarding feeling to gave a more and more powerful or advanced avatar. How can that NOT be the bread and butter of any game?

Except sidescrollers, this goes for a very large majority of any game.

And it does it well, the itemization, specs, crafting all have a very decent influence on what your avatar becomes.
You decide how much effort you want to put into it, and now everything is pretty much guaranteed to satisfy even very casual gamers.

The variation between 9 classes and 3 specs for each, is fairly large.
It's not as dumbed down as you might think, rogues, for example, have to learn how to make pretty perfect rotations to spend their energy when fighting(constant repleneshing "currency" for their abilities).

I don't see that they've ripped anyone off badly. You have your common spells and abilities that do obvious things, so in the end this goes for every game out there in the same genre. What makes the difference is how well they play them out.

The balance is great. Oh, you'll hear whiners far and wide about this and that, and how this class is the "flavor of the month", and that ability is too powerful etc. etc. and I occasionally whine about things as well, and sure enough I feel that my class is singled out, but so does everyone else.
Fact is, you can take any class, any spec and be in some kind of competitive activity between PvE or PvP. Some specialization are locked for one or the other, while most specs just require a variation.

Secondly, you've avoided mentioning features that have a negative sound to them, and might turn players off from giving WoW a try, which in an objective review should balance out with the positives. What you did instead is mention a few features you consider redeeming to the game, which is the equivalent of saying "This game is good. You should try it". Certainly not an objective view to take.

That's what I meant by taking a perspective to the game, what's reasonable to expect of it?

Taking WoW at face value, you're promised an epic fantasy through a fantastic world of wonders. It doesn't really tell you anything else, other that it's an mmo and that you play with others.

So where to base it from?
I take it from my experience with other mmo's.

They all have to have timesinks in order to keep people playing, this is an inevitable gimmick of any paid mmo(and even some you don't pay for).
This is something you have to expect, and it's a bad thing, sure, but it's keyed in with all mmo's, it's hardly unexpected.
Grinding has come to a tolerable level though, even raids which take hours to complete, easily took 3 or 4 times as long in similar setting mmo's, like everquest or final fantasy online.

Having as huge a playerbase as it does, you're bound to meet some of the worst morons out there. The same goes for good and kind people though.

The storylines/quests are somewhat cliché, some are poorly written, some are worth a read and others are completely irrelevant to the objective, or vice-versa.

From what I've tried in the WoTLK trailer, a lot of these things are vastly improved. Classes will be unbalanced for months to come again, but that'll level out as people advance.

Graphics are old and almost outdated by now. They've managed to keep a very cartoony style that makes it ageless, but the flaws are beginning to show, and the engine can't keep up with all that more any longer. I'm guessing they'll have to end it maybe after another expansion, if not before.

It's hard to find negatives from what I've experienced in the game.
The worst things have been the grinding and slow leveling. Now though, both have been shortened vastly.

My class felt pretty useless in the beginning, now it's on par with everyone else.

In the end, if you don't like the gameplay, that's not the games fault. Either you like wasting time hours on end in front of a computer, or you don't.

The setting is a matter of taste. The warcraft realm has been ripped off from the warhammer universe, but WoW is nothing like it. You have your standard humans, orcs, elves, dwarves etc. but the storylines and settings are not at all similar.

I could mention things I miss that aren't promised though.
More faction versus faction gameplay, where you actually make a difference in the world, including everything from destroying entire zones to leveling the others cities.

Yes, I'm biased, but I honestly think that most of it comes down to taste, and not any bad parts of the game.

What would you say? Lag? bugs? exploits?

This isn't working man. You're not being objective, you're just doing the age old peace in the world naive bullshit hippie subroutine on FO3, and just saying "I hope it'll turn out ok" and "I think it'll do X, Y and Z" without going over any evidence to support that claim, or worse, using 'because I think' as evidence, which proves you don't and makes you sound like a 5 year old trying to form his first line of thought.

By what you've shown, you're no less biased than I am, only you're biased in a different direction. You bring forth no coherent argument for why I'm wrong in assuming the opoosite of what you've just said and, worse, no argument whatsoever for why you're supposed to be right.

The difference is that I have WoW between my hands, I've played it for almost 3 years and I know every nook and cranny of it.

We DON'T know what the entire Fallout 3 experience will be like, and that's why we both draw some conclusions, neither of which are particularly objective. But there's a difference between my "I hope it'll be good", and yours "This will be shit" comments.

If anything, from what we've seen so far, Beth is not taking the project as seriously as some fans are, meaning they're not as into it as they should be, considering statements such as "We're fans, and we're doing this for the fans." They're not going into a "different direction" because they've kept most every single element from their previous game, in this "new" game. If Fallout 3 is there "test zone", which I interpret as a mix of shooting gallery and sealed chamber, they're in it to muck about and see if they can get any good at it, while making a buck in the process, which is "milking a brand" when it comes to the purchase and torching of an established franchise, so basicly you shot yourself down within that one sentence.

In that case they're risking a lot by milking a brand that didn't succeed very well. If anything, they're milking the setting or their own gamestyle, but Fallout itself? No. Because it's not Fallout.

So far Beth has failed to bring any innovation to the table, and while it will inspire other games if it sells well enough (like Oblivion or WoW) it will not enspire anything new, only the rehash of old concepts and ye' good ole' bandwagon jumping. And while you have a point, that people, who've never heard of Fallout, will and have tried the earlier games, so far it generally seems, from what I've heard about it myself, they're unsatisfied with what they've seen in the old games, probably because they went into it with a post-apoc free-roam shooter mindset, as what set them on the path was the FO3 hype. You'd have better hopes of Diablo 3 attracting people to the Fallouts, via the isometric chain of command; "I like Diablo 3! I will play Diablo 1 & 2! I'd like to try a deeper game within the same sort of gameplay enviroment! I'll try the old Black-Isle games! I'll try Fallout! Hey, this was pretty cool! I'll go rave on a forum!"

You don't need innovation to make a good game. If anything, lionhead studios and maxis have both proved that innovation leads to overhyped ideas that don't make for very good gameplay.
I know that's not exactly what you mean, but we don't need innovation every time to make a good game, in fact I'd rather see a good tried and true one instead.
I'm tempted to say that the new perspective and gameplay is their excuse for innovation.

I've already told you that I don't expect overly much from the new fanbase, but I do hope, and I do intend to try and make that work. And in order for that to happen, the DAC community needs to welcome the new fanbase as well, and try to introduce them to what fallout really is.

Lastly, if Fallout 3 is widely successful, Bethesda will not make any alterations to their game mechanics to bring it any closer to a "real" Fallout game, simply because doing so would help to alienate their "new" fanbase. If Fallout 3 is unsuccessful, chances that they'll hassle to make a "real" Fallout game, instead of just dropping the franchise off as a bad investment, are virtually non existant.

Maybe. But maybe it'll fail and someone else will pick it up. Or maybe they will change the gameplay. Or maybe someone else will make a new game based on a post-apoc setting, but more fallout-esque than Fo3.

Usually, if a game shows off a location in a set of promotional videos, it's a game-setter location, to put some water in your mouth and ants up your ass so that you go buy the game first thing in the morning. If what we've seen in the videos, or at least, what I've seen in the videos, while you continuously have acid flashbacks, is the best that they have to offer, there's really not much to look forward to for "interesting places", unless your definition of an "interesting place" is a combat heavy dungeon-like enviroment, which here might be the case since you apparently enjoy WoW, I'd suggest you give up hope on that one.

I'd enjoy it in WoW, but I wouldn't enjoy it in Fallout.
Well... depends on what the difference is. I guess you could compare some of the places in fallout 1/2 with "dungeons". But mostly in Fo2, like sierra army depot, old military base, oil rig...

But one is an mmo, and the other should be an RPG, therein lies the difference. If I order applepie I don't want cake, even though I like that too.

I hope you're wrong though, but I guess megaton will be one of the main settlements. I'm tempted to say it wont be, since you can blow it to hell, so you'd think there'd be other much more interesting places?
Come to think of it, I only think they're bragging about it because it HAS a bomb, and you CAN blow it up.

T'was a snide remark. Sounded like you were judging them harshly from a graphical standpoint.

Besides, I gotta say, it's not how many polys you have on your character; it's how you use them. We're still in the age of low-poly models; that's why we have normal mapping up our ass everywhere we turn, and that's one of the reasons why the textures look "colorful" in comparison. Painkiller still holds a decent record for high-poly maps, which few modern games see fit to break seeing as it puts alot of stress on the engine. The other reason for "colorful" looking textures, is sparse use of specular mapping, which isn't a tech issue but a design issue; I don't see why every surface has to reflect light as if it were made of glass.

A "next gen" makeover for most games in the 2002-2005 range, wouldn't take any time or effort, really, as long as the game engine can keep up with it. You up your basic shader algorythm, add normal and specular mapping (which can be done by converting detail maps with half-decent end results) and, for a subtle touch you redo the shadow calculation a couple of extra times, for softer shadows and then you can add/update the bump map if you really feel it necessary. The core stuff need hardly even be touched, as long as the textures are high-res enough, so it's all down to polish.

The trend we've been seeing in graphics is that the core is usually patched up in a sloppy fashion, and then the polish is applied methodically untill it covers the shit up almost completely. Some people get fooled by it, and I don't see why. FO3 is, as I said, a different story, with even the polish applied sloppily, making it look more like ghoul-sex than any "nuxt genz" game to date, except maybe Mercs2 which looks just like Soldner would do with dynamic lighting.

We're in agreement. And this quote makes my post bigger, and my epeen that much larger.

I can't comment on the mechanics, since I don't have the experience that you obviously do.
You make a valid point that you know more than me about how good Fo3 should be able to look.

I'd suggest you lower your expectations some more.

It's self-defeating and serves no purpose but to wallow in self-pity and/or join a mob with pitchforks and torches.



I've cut out the other warcraft bits, because it's so far from anything ontopic that if you want to continue that discussion, we can do it in the general games forum. Replying to these posts are fun, but to a limit, and I don't see the point of discussing it here any longer.

So why is your mind closed to the game being completely retarded, as I have said on numerous occasions? You feel the need to close-mindedly argue against my points, instead spilling your biased shit all over the place, while advocating open mindedness and objectivity? Hidden agenda or stupidity - u b the judge.

Hidden agenda then. I am open to it being shitty, but not the the irrelevant and obvious drivel of a hatefest that I'm first of all, fairly tired of, and second; it's counterproductive.

His influence on the DAC mentality is about as big as yours, so while I don't consider him a worwhile poster, his presence doesn't bother me. If he was a newsposter or mod; that would be different.

I see. I'll have to remedy that. Not being in the NMA so far helps.

So you want to fill the dying ant colony with worms, to feel good about yourself. Jump off the pedestal; whatever position of "virtual powah" ( ) you're in, you're still just a guy jerking yourself off. You're not an artisté, or a leader, and you have no place trying to form anything, unless we're talking feces of your own production.

Nothing of the sort. That I come off like that, might have a certain truth to it but that's not my motive. I've been around for a very, very long time, and I consider it my second home. And it pisses me the fuck off to see what it's become. That's why I hope it'll be different with this game release.

The increase in moderation and me becomming a super mod is directly proportional to the fact that some people are becomming worse and worse posters.

But generally you and others have me grossly misjudged.

The way I see it, this pointless "Meh"-fest doesn't do any good at all. We've proven all we could to you that DAC doesn't want your well educated opinions. You act all "Bethsoft" about it.

And the DAC method is SO much better. Yeah. Right.

It doesn't even look like they're going to drop mod tools for the game. The interest Beth holds in the franchise is skin deep, and overshadowed by their self-interest. And even if pressure was applied from enough interested parties to change the development of future Fallout titles to better adapt to the established canon and lessen the gap between the Fallout of ye' olde' and NEXTGENZ Fallout, Beth has no experience of making anything other than shoddy FPS/RPG/Sandbox type games, and would not be able to produce anything resembling the originals, without completely outsourcing the project.

Time will tell. I can't say anything else.

Nothing after either. No one in their right mind could be expecting any positive change; it's as you said, Fallout died and now the corpse is being raped. You can't deny people the right to vent about it.

Then you've given up. Don't deny my right not to have.

Only if the "big picture" consists of optical illusions for imagery. You're just jerking yourself off here, and no one's going to buy your extrusion.

We'll see. But I don't everyone agrees.

What can I say? I love waving my cock around. You're a long time member of DAC, and wether you're Einstein or a nimrod, you have a say and deserve an answer; that's a right that comes with long-term membership. The 15 page thread where Rosh argued long and hard with Haris comes to mind.

I'll be honest with you though, I feel that this topic is dying out, and I don't intend to write as long reply as I have so far.

[Wolfman Walt]

I think this thread would be better if the arguments were limited to haiku format.