Sept. 11 and the War on Terror: Bullshit or Patriotism?

[Kashluk]

Peace, brother :rainbowafro:

[VasikkA]

Heeey.... Kashluk is insulting us Americans! Er. I think. Speak English, damn you! Methinks it's time for me to put on a cowboy hat, get in my pickup truck, and dispense with some good ol' fashioned American justice (Dubya style...)

Peace and much love.

Insulting? He's just telling how things are, from a non-american perspective. I dunno if all americans don't accept the fact that their country has serious flaws, probably not.

Oh, and peace to ya too brotha.

[Hammer]

Well, the dude did (although not in this conversation) write that China is evil and we should get rid of all of 'em. And he's said many stupid things, leaning on to patriotism, that it makes me sick.

Yup, I did say that, but, remember where the thread was located and what the name of the thread was? here, let me refresh your memory.

The thread was named "If you ran the country what would you do", it was located in The Wasteland, which is hardly a serious place to go for discussion. 99% of the posts in that thread were about killing this and that and taking over the world, so, I joined in. You don't make me sick, you make me laugh with your half-assed excuses and blatant stupidity.

Please Kashluck, don't try to be smart, it doesn't suit you.

Insulting? He's just telling how things are, from a non-american perspective. I dunno if all americans don't accept the fact that their country has serious flaws, probably not.

Yes, but, posting how much he hates America and saying it's full of idiots is hardly making serious points, nor is putting a picture of an American flag burning in his signature. Does America have idiots? yes, they're all located in California, does Europe have idiots? yes, they're mostly located in France.

Maybe to the anti-American crowd he is your reigning champion, but to anybody with something above a 2nd grade education, he is a moron.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

say constipated bladerunner, do you acully ignore my posts, or do you just dont see them? because there's atlist 3 questions i asked you that have yet to be replied throughout this topic....

Sorry, what are they?
Ive been playing to much War3 lately- I normally dislike blizzard games- Warcraft set the genre back another 3 years with it's "diffirent" sides, though I found myself liking Diablo 1, but War3 is an almost perfect mix of Starcraft and Diablo.
Sorry Bulldog thinks Iam a bitch, I find him funny so I wont take out my raiper wit.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

China is evil and does not deserve to rule over 1.2 billion people. have you ever been to China? You need to bribe half a dozen political officers to take a shite

[DeepOmega]

Does America have idiots? yes, they're all located in California, does Europe have idiots? yes, they're mostly located in France.

California's not as bad as the right-wing dumbasses that're opposing every form of freedom imaginable (*coughstromcough*). What worries me most about America is the increasing number of restriction being placed on freedom. The PATRIOT Act alone is enough to scare the shit out of anyone who cares for freedom (just go read the table of contents, the headings are bad enough) and when you throw in Carnivore, ECHELON, and the massive databases that could very easily be compiled (and with the talk of a national ID card, this could be a very real possibility).

...posting how much he hates America and saying it's full of idiots is hardly making serious points...

Perhaps I misquoted, or wasn't clear... I was joking, man. He made a comment about there being too many americans, I made a comment about wearing a cowboy hat in an (apparently failed) attempt at irony. I actually don't have a pickup truck, and I don't like cowboy hats. Or cowboys. Or hats. And as for the burning flag... I can't remember who it was who said "I disagree with what you write, but I will defend to the death your right to write it," but it's applicable in this situation. Hey, apparently Kashluk doesn't agree with America's actions. And who can blame him? Historically, America has been one of the biggest hypocrites in the world. While the burning flag is a bit strong, it's still a form of speech, and a powerful one at that. If you really value freedom, you'll not insult him for it.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Does America have idiots? yes, they're all located in California, does Europe have idiots? yes, they're mostly located in France.

California's not as bad as the right-wing dumbasses that're opposing every form of freedom imaginable (*coughstromcough*). What worries me most about America is the increasing number of restriction being placed on freedom. The PATRIOT Act alone is enough to scare the shit out of anyone who cares for freedom (just go read the table of contents, the headings are bad enough) and when you throw in Carnivore, ECHELON, and the massive databases that could very easily be compiled (and with the talk of a national ID card, this could be a very real possibility).

...posting how much he hates America and saying it's full of idiots is hardly making serious points...

Perhaps I misquoted, or wasn't clear... I was joking, man. He made a comment about there being too many americans, I made a comment about wearing a cowboy hat in an (apparently failed) attempt at irony. I actually don't have a pickup truck, and I don't like cowboy hats. Or cowboys. Or hats. And as for the burning flag... I can't remember who it was who said "I disagree with what you write, but I will defend to the death your right to write it," but it's applicable in this situation. Hey, apparently Kashluk doesn't agree with America's actions. And who can blame him? Historically, America has been one of the biggest hypocrites in the world. While the burning flag is a bit strong, it's still a form of speech, and a powerful one at that. If you really value freedom, you'll not insult him for it.

How can anyone disagree with anything we have done as a result of September 11? 3,000 people were killed, all of them INNOCENT civilians. Also, who would have defended Finland from the Russians if America did not exsist? For that matter, who would handle the Russians? Sure, we are doublethinking hypocrites, but that dosnt mean that most of what we do is wrong- on the contrary.
Also, I am curious, Kashwhatever why the hell do you post a burning american flag on a forum, an american innovation, on the internet, an american invention made right here in the Chcago area, about an american made game?
The thing that I hate about this new European "trend" is to call America fascists and unimaginative obese bastards that have never worked while drinking a diet coke and loving France, a country that had it not been for America would at the very least be balkanized after the Russian vicory over Germany. Europe forgot that war was a part of human nature with the aftermath of WW2- we re-lerned it in Vietnam. Not only that but look at Le Pen and Putin! Fascisim is on the rise in Europe, everwhere! While our freaks still have less than 1% of the vote- when the time comes, who will save Europe from itself- Britan? Against france maybe, but not against france+germany/russia! Spain? Plese! Germany? They brought anti-semitisim into the mainstreme in the beggining!
You cant touch anything ANYWHERE that was not somehow involved with the American machine- and even if we are not as free as some countires, we are most certainly the defnders of that freedom
If it is his choice to post a burning flag, than reversley it is my choice to dissagree with it- another staple of freedome.

[DeepOmega]

How can anyone disagree with anything we have done as a result of September 11?

Well, let's take one thing at a time. First: the war in Afghanistan. For one thing, it's done a good deal of damage to innocents. While there are terrorists in Afghanistan, there are also terrorists in Oklahoma, and we wouldn't attack all Oklahomans because of this, right? A lot of damage has been done to innocent civilians in Afghanistan (and Canadians, and the Red Cross...) so I think that's one thing I can disagree with. In addition, attacking Afghanistan simply reinforces the anti-American beliefs held by terrorists. The more terrorists are killed, the more support for them will grow. You can't fight ideas with bullets.

Then there's the PATRIOT Act. Well, let's see. First, it allows the authorities to listen in on phone conversations between alleged terrorists and their lawyers. Violates a couple of ammendments to the constitution, but most notably the entire concept of due process. It also gave the FBI free reign to use Carnivore, the system which sifts through random e-mails looking for phrases that may implicate people of terrorism. *coughinvasionofprivacycough* There's the new freedom given to the FBI in obtaining warrants for wiretaps (less stringent restrictions). In short, it's doing a damn good job of limiting freedoms, and I doubt that any meaningful data will come of it.

Germany? They brought anti-semitisim into the mainstreme in the beggining!

........... No. Put really fucking simply, no. Firstly, anti-semitism was not mainstream in Germany, even during World War 2. It was simply adopted by their government (and a large number of Germans left when it was... they saw the writing on the wall and got out while they could). There were still numerous people who didn't agree with Naziism but wouldn't dare disagree (and who can blame them? One of the strongest governments ever, with numerous means of silencing dissenters). And that was in the past, anyway. You want to talk about despicable pasts? What about slavery in America? It lasted nearly a century, and even then racism continued for almost another century! Quite a bit longer than anti-semitism in Germany.

If it is his choice to post a burning flag, than reversley it is my choice to dissagree with it- another staple of freedome.

Damn straight. I was disagreeing with Hammer's insulting of Kashluk for his anti-American views. Disagree all you want, especially if you try to make your point with facts, not insults.

[Hammer]

Well, let's take one thing at a time. First: the war in Afghanistan. For one thing, it's done a good deal of damage to innocents.

Were you in the Military? When I was in the Rangers during some conflicts around the world and I can tell you that we took so many precautions to avoid civilian casualties it often resulted in Americans getting injured/killed. A stray bomb here or there is a result of war, civilans suffer just as much in a war as the soldiers do.

The U.S trys damn hard to avoid these accidents, but it will ALWAYS happen. Unfortunatly, people who are anti-American will forever play on these mistakes.

And that was in the past, anyway. You want to talk about despicable pasts? What about slavery in America? It lasted nearly a century, and even then racism continued for almost another century! Quite a bit longer than anti-semitism in Germany.

Yeah we had slavery, it was hard to shake some of the bad habits we had got from the Europeans, thankfully it appears to be gone now.

As for the Anti-Semitism stuff, it's still around, I've read that France is the most anti-Semitic place around.

Damn straight. I was disagreeing with Hammer's insulting of Kashluk for his anti-American views. Disagree all you want, especially if you try to make your point with facts, not insults.

Eye for an Eye, in many past arguments he has found it fitting to call me a fascist militant nazi simply because I collect firearms, or any other stereotypical remark he has in his big bag of idiotic coments.

California's not as bad as the right-wing dumbasses that're opposing every form of freedom imaginable (*coughstromcough*). What worries me most about America is the increasing number of restriction being placed on freedom. The PATRIOT Act alone is enough to scare the shit out of anyone who cares for freedom (just go read the table of contents, the headings are bad enough) and when you throw in Carnivore, ECHELON, and the massive databases that could very easily be compiled (and with the talk of a national ID card, this could be a very real possibility).

Well I am a Republican so naturally I disagree with some Liberals, however, I am not so far-right ring that I consider all liberals bad people, it's just that I strongly disagree with their stance on certain subjects (Gun "Control" for example). Now you speak of 'right wing dumbasses' who want to take our freedoms away, many left-wing folks would like to have firearm registration, which is basically like a national ID card, and lets the Government know what firearms you have been buying.

Hypocrisy is on both sides.

While the burning flag is a bit strong, it's still a form of speech, and a powerful one at that. If you really value freedom, you'll not insult him for it.

Burning the flag is an extremists' way of getting his "point" across, I find it hard to take anybody who burns the flag seriously, especially since by burning the flag I can expect them to never agree with anything the U.S does simply because their hatred for the U.S is so deeply embedded in their minds.

[Nirvana]

hey cbr easy there i don´t know your motivations or whatever , but stop
talking wrong things about europe , the first idea of a person readings these posts is that you hate europe :roll:
If Europe didn´t exist in the first place american as we know it wouldn´t exist either ...

[Walks with the Snails]

How can anyone disagree with anything we have done as a result of September 11?

Well, let's take one thing at a time. First: the war in Afghanistan. For one thing, it's done a good deal of damage to innocents. While there are terrorists in Afghanistan, there are also terrorists in Oklahoma, and we wouldn't attack all Oklahomans because of this, right? A lot of damage has been done to innocent civilians in Afghanistan (and Canadians, and the Red Cross...) so I think that's one thing I can disagree with. In addition, attacking Afghanistan simply reinforces the anti-American beliefs held by terrorists. The more terrorists are killed, the more support for them will grow. You can't fight ideas with bullets.

Yeah, killing innocent Afghanis was the Taliban's job, right?

Have things gone perfectly over there? Of course not. Something had to be done, though, and it's an unfortunate reality that people get caught in the crossfire. You have to draw some kind of distinction, though, between accidentally killing innocents and deliberately executing innocents. Neither is good, but if your living in a dream world where you think everything is going to be perfect, you're just going to get a lot of eye-rolling from people who know it's never going to happen. You might even do more harm than good if you actually try to fit this messy world into your idealized vision of it. Unless you think the Canadians and Red Cross and civilians were deliberately targeted by someone other than warlords with an agenda. In which case you should probably remember to put on your foil hat to block the mind controlling radar, as the undercover CIA operative down the street is beaming it at you right now.

Moreover, what else would you have us do? Nothing while they laugh at us for our weak-kneed impotence like the did after Somalia and the embassy bombings and the Cole bombing? March our army in instead of bombing and have the entire popluace rally against us in a knee-jerk reaction when the Taliban tells them we're going to annex them after it's all over, so they better kill whitey while there's still time? Yeah, there's a great idea. Think how many dead Afghanis we'd have on our hands then.

Then there's the PATRIOT Act. Well, let's see. First, it allows the authorities to listen in on phone conversations between alleged terrorists and their lawyers. Violates a couple of ammendments to the constitution, but most notably the entire concept of due process. It also gave the FBI free reign to use Carnivore, the system which sifts through random e-mails looking for phrases that may implicate people of terrorism. *coughinvasionofprivacycough* There's the new freedom given to the FBI in obtaining warrants for wiretaps (less stringent restrictions). In short, it's doing a damn good job of limiting freedoms, and I doubt that any meaningful data will come of it.

I'm certainly not that supportive of what they all passed and have going on, but really I think it was mostly just feel-good crap to make the clueless feel better about things. Considering the CIA spent tens of millions specifically to watch Bin Laden and they still didn't figure out September 11 beforehand, I'm not that worried about black helicopters descending on my house because I spouted off a few political statements on a message board. Honestly, if they can't get their act together for the real stuff, why do you think they're going to devote resources for stupid crap that nobody really cares about. They're already swimming in more information than they know what to do with as well as crippled with an unwieldy bureaucracy, I think tracking your web usage and busting your chops for downloading porn is really the last thing they have the time for right now. When all this actually results in legitimate political speech and free expression getting squashed, I'll pitch my fit then. It seems a bit premature now, though.

[MF]

This is the fourth time I've read your curriculum vitae militaris, Hammer.
I'm sure you're really proud of your served duty and I'm sure it formed you to be the person you are.

What I'm not too sure about is how your experiences relate to the subject at hand. For you, every experience must have made a lasting impression. For me, your comments are just stories and numbers.

Then again, you're free, of course, to post whatever you want. I'm just pointing it out. I believe our last argument resulted in some mutual hostility so I'll leave it at that and proceed venting my opinion on the topic at hand :

The War on Terror is nonsense. You can't wage war on invisible enemy, which is so deeply invested into yourself that you constitute the very thing you're fighting. Thinking linguistically, you can't wage war on an emotion. I like that one, whoever came up with it earlier in this thread.

Now, waging war on a fundamentalistic regime that supresses women is fine. Waging war on Iraq is fine. In fact, with some of the racial prejudices that have been seeping into my mind through personal experiences, I couldn't care less if the entire Islamic world would be obliberated.

Then again, those are personal experiences. Just because 9 out of 10 Muslims I meet are bad people doesn't mean every Muslim is. In fact, it's likely to assume that the people who leave their country to come here are the bad people of the particular country they're leaving and that in that country itself the average citizen is a fine and dandy person. I'm sure of that. But my personal experiences dictate my opinions.

Hammer, I'm no better than you.

[Kashluk]

You don't make me sick, you make me laugh with your half-assed excuses and blatant stupidity.

Please Kashluck, don't try to be smart, it doesn't suit you.

Maybe to the anti-American crowd he is your reigning champion, but to anybody with something above a 2nd grade education, he is a moron.

You seem to have some kind of a problem, Hammer... Dunno if you're running out of decent things to write, but if mocking me rises up your self-image then go ahead! Be your own hero!

"I disagree with what you write, but I will defend to the death your right to write it," but it's applicable in this situation. Hey, apparently Kashluk doesn't agree with America's actions. And who can blame him? Historically, America has been one of the biggest hypocrites in the world. While the burning flag is a bit strong, it's still a form of speech, and a powerful one at that. If you really value freedom, you'll not insult him for it.

Thanks, dude. I know it is a bit strong, but if there are americans who will get past my opinion on American Foreign Policy and that burning flag, they're decent folk and worth get knowing to. Bulldog (I think he's american... is he??), you DeepOmega and Ghetto Goose (although he didn't take the flag thing too well...) are a few examples.

I've been following the news about this "patriotic act" as well and I must say, that it would be historically wonderful. Another Deutsche Demokratische Republik! Well, ok, in theory if they would manage to get over 10 million civilian spies - but anyways...

Also, who would have defended Finland from the Russians if America did not exsist? For that matter, who would handle the Russians?

Oh, come on, don't come telling a Finn that you saved us in the Winter- and Continuation War! 8O You guys didn't do a shit, although finnish politicans nearly begged for helped in front of the western democracies. We got a few planes from UK, couple dozens of jagers from Sweden and little bit of this and that from other northern-Europe countries, but nuffin' from US. The best thing we got from you post-1940's era were those Coca-Cola bottles in 1952. And officially those were a gift from the Dutchmen, anyways...

Also, I am curious, Kashwhatever why the hell do you post a burning american flag on a forum, an american innovation, on the internet, an american invention made right here in the Chcago area, about an american made game?

Because I oppose American Foreign Policy. And please, don't ask me to start explaining, it'll just end up Hammer calling me a good-for-nothing-Euro-dude :roll:

And the thing 'bout extreme right-wingers... It sure is something to be worried about in Europe. Yes, I confess, it's a huge problem. Especially in Germany. Also in bit smaller scales in Sweden and Finland. The police force and a major part of folk accept the way how skinheads burn kebab-kiosks and butcher refugees in BRD. Officially they're all against it, but the heavy immigrant movement to central-europe from the east has frustrated many and there seems to be no end for the anger.

If it is his choice to post a burning flag, than reversley it is my choice to dissagree with it- another staple of freedome.

Damn straight. I was disagreeing with Hammer's insulting of Kashluk for his anti-American views. Disagree all you want, especially if you try to make your point with facts, not insults.

Indeed. Although you could count my signature as an insult, but let's consider it under the category "Liberty of Speech". And if you don't like it, then don't like it You're free to hate it, IMO.

PS: I'll propably take it off, when I calm down a bit...

Yeah we had slavery, it was hard to shake some of the bad habits we had got from the Europeans, thankfully it appears to be gone now.

If I remember right the "mass slavery" started, when the people living in the new continent needed cheap labor for the cotton fields, eh? Can't really fit that in Europe.

Unless we're talking about Russian bondsmen or the serfs in the Dark Ages... And no offending intended, just blowing off the steam.

[Follower]

Deep Omega - you have explained all quiet clearly and calmly. I have nothing to add. 8)

Costipated Bladerunner - Are you really believe in all that stuff you, you are posting? 8O if you are... Well, I hope that America will save me from hordes of France/Russian fasists...

Hammer... war is war and nobody can deny it. People die - enemies, civilians, soldiers... even greatest of generals or smartest computer can't change it. War is the last and worsest way to solve the problem... Yes, America was pushed to it, but you were waiting for it eagerly... What can be changed? Nothing. I don't know politics and all that stuff. I can't advice something. I'll only use one saying - "bad peace is better than good war"... Well, sometimes people had to talk with help of guns. Spain showed it quiet clear recently.

Everybody else(me too) This place really is growing into something bad. Burning flags and harsh language... This is simple forum, nothing more - your enemies are down there... not here.

[rambo]

As for the Anti-Semitism stuff, it's still around, I've read that France is the most anti-Semitic place around

damm skippy

in the past few moths the burned our holy places...
and so as england....

Eye for an Eye, in many past arguments he has found it fitting to call me a fascist militant nazi simply because I collect firearms, or any other stereotypical remark he has in his big bag of idiotic coments.

nazi?!
hammer?!
NO

Yeah, killing innocent Afghanis was the Taliban's job, right?

sorry but in very war we cant a void civilian casualties...
ppl just use it ( **UHEMMM UHEMMM**) to complain and exuse countries
like when the exuse us for "genin killing" in israel

if ppl just for once think b4 they talk they would see that the army is risking alot of soldiers just to minimize the civilian casualties

[Hammer]

You seem to have some kind of a problem, Hammer... Dunno if you're running out of decent things to write, but if mocking me rises up your self-image then go ahead! Be your own hero

You've run out of decent things to say a long time ago, I am simply replying to your mindless ranting and excuses.

I think basing your argument over me saying in a joking thread that China is full of evil robot monsters is rather foolish, don't ya think?

If I remember right the "mass slavery" started, when the people living in the new continent needed cheap labor for the cotton fields, eh? Can't really fit that in Europe

Happend while we were still under English rule.

Because I oppose American Foreign Policy. And please, don't ask me to start explaining, it'll just end up Hammer calling me a good-for-nothing-Euro-dude

Stop trying to be the victim, you bring these things upon yourself by doing foolish things such as posting a picture of a burning American flag in your signature and stereotyping Americans. And you never just question foreign policy, you enjoy saying how no Americans should be allowed to own firearms, or how all Americans are fat and stupid, that is where I take offense.

I would never post a picture of another country's flag burning just to get a point across, especially if they take serious pride in their home land.

@MF - What are you going on about? I have no recollection of having any sour feelings towards you, and, what makes you "I am no better than you"? I never question anybody's equality to me, nor do I compare it.

[Kashluk]

Well I've always thought that all these Haag Conventions and shit are so hypocritical

War is killing. But why the hell do you need to kill with an FMJ instead of a JSP, JHP or Flechette?? It ends up losing another unique soul anyway.

Or the ambulance thingy... You can kill as much people as you want, but if the guy doesn't die and gets in the ambulance he's not allowed to be shot at 8O Does that make any sense to you guys?

I think it's just nations' way to agree on, that war is acceptable and a reasonable tool in middle of diplomacy and espionage. Bull, bull I say.

[MF]

Never mind then, Hammer. Forget what I said.

[Hammer]

Uh... heh, Ok MF.

@Kash- Politics have no place on the battle field.

[Kashluk]

You've run out of decent things to say a long time ago, I am simply replying to your mindless ranting and excuses.

I think basing your argument over me saying in a joking thread that China is full of evil robot monsters is rather foolish, don't ya think?

You wrote it very seriously. Anyways, the thread was 'bout your dream nation/world. I thought you meant what you wrote, when you didn't even bother to mark it up with a smiley. We can't see your grin, you know.

Because I oppose American Foreign Policy. And please, don't ask me to start explaining, it'll just end up Hammer calling me a good-for-nothing-Euro-dude

Stop trying to be the victim, you bring these things upon yourself by doing foolish things such as posting a picture of a burning American flag in your signature and stereotyping Americans. And you never just question foreign policy, you enjoy saying how no Americans should be allowed to own firearms, or how all Americans are fat and stupid, that is where I take offense.

What did I do now? Hm... Well I don't think americans shouldn't be allowed to own firearms or that americans are all fat and stupid (anymore). Let 'em have couple of those hunting rifles and let 'em be bold and beautiful in peace. I won't mind. Anyways we got the same Remingtons and tv-series here in Finland

I would never post a picture of another country's flag burning just to get a point across, especially if they take serious pride in their home land.

Well you feel offended. At least my point went through, although a bit too far. I take serious pride in my home land... With limits, of course, because we have a lot to be ashamed of as well. But still you can post a picture of a burning flag of Finland, I won't be insulted, because that's what you think about Finland or a certain part of it.