More Fallout: New Vegas info from PSM3

[King of Creation]

Dammit, I really need to write my official review of it.

[Connor]

HAAHAHA. The "general videogame press" are made up of halfwits who pander to the PR divisions of game companies so they give them more advertising dollars.

It is true that many times they are paid off many times. I will not refute this.

The general consensus NOW amongst the average game journalist is that Fallout 3 was a bug-ridden mess with horrible writing, virtually no story, incoherent plot lines, terrible voice-acting, bad graphics/physics, and laughable dialogue.

Umm, no? From what I tell, people are still putting it on "Top Games of EVAR" lists. If you want me to believe this, I will need proof.

The same thing happened with Oblivion. Everyone in the "general gaming press" creamed their pants over Oblivion when it was in development and when it came out, but after a few months of no PR pressure, they all started writing about how "hey, this game actually is pretty shit afterall." Same complaints there as with Fallout 3: crappy writing, horrible voice-acting, bugs galore, etc.

Once again, prove it and I will accept.

Are we angry at the "blending" of game genres? Yes, of course. But it's not the main reason we get critical of Fallout 3. Of course we are unhappy that Bethesda took minimal RPG elements and tried to make a shooter out of Fallout, but game mechanics aside - Fallout 3 was a poorly done game by any standard.

By any, you would have to include mine, which in that case is not true.

Gah! I just had this argument on the Youtube page with the New Vegas trailer; some people just didn't like it!

"B-but everyone else likes it!" Amazing. I'm not everyone else. Go shower in kerosene and fuck an electrical socket, you dull attention seeking zilch.

I have no problem with differing opinions. In fact, I enjoy them. It promotes individuality. The problem is, many opinions I have seen in this instance are not what I would consider "valid". I always felt as though I could see why original Fallout fans would hate Fallout 3. I could think of them easily. I wouldn't agree, but I would understand. But now that I am really looking in earnest, I see that the real issue everybody has is that Interplay's logo wasn't slapped on the box. The fact that Bethesda made it gives people the reason to hate, because it's different. Is it crappy as an action game? Yes. Is it buggy? Absolutely. Does it have bad graphics? Definitely. Is it a bad RPG? No. It's an excellent RPG. Play it as an RPG, and it's amazing. Think of Gears of War and compare it to Fallout. Now FO3 has amazing dialogue and story, and still has horrible action.

And that horrible action is why I love it so much.

I assume many others have come here and stated opinions just like I am now. I plan to stay here though, and not shy away form the collective hate of a fanbase. Unless of course I am banned, which is probably the road I am currently walking, as my very objectionable opinions are testament.

[King of Creation]

Proof? Google:

Fallout 3 bad writing
Fallout 3 bugs
Fallout 3 Voice acting
etc.

Replace Fallout 3 with Oblivion and repeat.

Also, read this editorial from Kharn at NMA. It sums up everything nicely:

http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=37708

And there we arrive at the central point of this article; the Rybicki Maneuver. In short the maneuver means that as long as your opinion on the product actually matters towards the game's sales, don't be too critical. The moment criticism doesn't matter anymore or, even better, criticism can be used to say "they won't do this again", do a 180 and suddenly claim the flaws you didn't mention in your review should be obvious to anyone.

[SenisterDenister]

Or he could just read through our entire Fallout 3 subforum.

[Connor]

Bringing up Google results in a debate? That's not good man. Didn't see anything for either of those, unless you expect me to go to page 27 of the results, which is too much effort to and too far to go for any acceptable proof. Face it, the opinions of these fan communities are entirely biased and state no valid points.

I've been around the internet for a long while, which is the greatest collection of obsessive and delirious fanatics known to man. I know fanboyism when I see it. I just never could have ever even dreamed there would be something to rival the hate shown by Star Wars fans against Phantom Menace. This is it though.

[King of Creation]

How is google results not admissible in this debate? You wanted proof - I gave you readily accessible proof from major website in an easy to access format.

Did you even read the Rybicki Maneuver article? There are so many ref'd sources in there - they should tide you over for proof if you can't be bothered to use google.

[SenisterDenister]

Or you see people that actually just don't like a game for very legitimate reasons but you refuse to acknowledge any of it and dismiss us for raving fanboys on our forum that you are new to. You're trying very hard to troll us. Stop.

[Connor]

I want something outside of the fan community. And still, nothing can change my mind, only make me accept the complaints. So far, I have no inclination to.

If I wanted to troll, I would say that Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel is the best game of the series.

[ekkaman]

who cares the game was shit get over it the next better be better orthey can fuck that franchise sidways if they havent allready

[Connor]

who cares the game was shit

But that isn't the point of this. While I dispute the claim that it is a bad game (just as the many reviews, both professional and independent attest against that), I am trying to get good reasons as to why it is bad. I haven't seen any. I keep seeing "itz got bad grafix and teh gaemplay is shit and needz 2 be moar liek gearz of war and itz al teh saem voys guy doin it and i dont liek teh obliviyun cuz that gaem is teh suxorz."

It makes me sad to be a fan of the original Fallouts.

[SenisterDenister]

I haven't seen any. I keep seeing "itz got bad grafix and teh gaemplay is shit and needz 2 be moar liek gearz of war and itz al teh saem voys guy doin it and i dont liek teh obliviyun cuz that gaem is teh suxorz."

Where the hell did you see anyone say that? Quit trolling. Really.

[Connor]

Seems like you'd like it to be that way. All the criticism on its action-shooter gameplay and it's graphics. Or maybe Halo?

[King of Creation]

We tend to criticize that action/shooter aspects of the game because the RPG elements of the game are almost non-existant and horribly implemented.

[SenisterDenister]

READ the threads in the Fallout 3 subforum. It won't hurt, and I'm sure not talking out of your ass would be more comfortable.

[Connor]

We tend to criticize that action/shooter aspects of the game because the RPG elements of the game are almost non-existant and horribly implemented.

But there are many types of RPGs. Character creation alone can classify a game as an RPG, provided it gives you more freedom than just that. I have a blind friend. He's very big on RPGs because they are story driven and don't make the visual experience the main treat. He considers Fallout 3 to be one of his favorite games of all time. He is also a fan of classics like KOTOR, Legend of Dragoon and others. Should that not mean that Fallout 3 does indeed have many RPG qualities. While being a shooter on it's outside, I rarely find myself playing it like one. The level up system is just like ones found in RPGs both new and old. The dialogue options are choices that are characteristic of Role-Playing Games. The multiple quests, looting, stories and open-world environment are definite RPG elements and staples. As an big RPG fan myself, I find all of these enjoyable and further reason as to why I love the game so much.

[King of Creation]

Character creation alone can classify a game as an RPG, provided it gives you more freedom than just that.

Bullshit. You create your character and choose skills in Diablo, but it's still an action game no matter how you try to spin it.

I have a blind friend. He's very big on RPGs because they are story driven and don't make the visual experience the main treat. He considers Fallout 3 to be one of his favorite games of all time.

How?? It's all running around and shooting. You cannot complete the game or even advance past certain situations in the beginning without serious violence and FPSing.

The dialogue options are choices that are characteristic of Role-Playing Games.

Yeah, if by dialogue choices you mean vapid, choiceless options then sure.

The multiple quests, looting, stories and open-world environment are definite RPG elements and staples.

What stories? There is barely any semblance of story in the entire game. Dad leaves the Vault, you look for dad in a wasteland with no cohesive elements but somehow people survive in tiny shacks without getting killed by one of the thousands of raiders or supermutants, then you find dad, dad gets killed, you somehow are not killed and the game jumps the shark and throws in a stupid giant robot, but wait! the robot's not ready! MAKE IT READY DAMMIT! But we need 72 hours to get it operational! YOU HAVE 17 MINUTES! Ok, Liberty Prime go! Col. Autumn is a pussy, game over.

That sums it up right there.

[Connor]

Bullshit. You create your character and choose skills in Diablo, but it's still an action game no matter how you try to spin it.

And I always thought of Diablo as and RPG. Well, Diablo 2 more-so, but neither of them had character creation the way I usually think of.

How?? It's all running around and shooting. You cannot complete the game or even advance past certain situations in the beginning without serious violence and FPSing.

On my first run through, I used VATS constantly. I'm pretty crappy at FPSing so it came really in handy. I've gotten better, but I still like to use VATS a lot.

Yeah, if by dialogue choices you mean vapid, choiceless options then sure.

But that is where a bit of imagination and personal Role-Playing come in. You get to chose to act like a dick, or be nice. It might not effect something in the game, but I always felt good when I was kind, and mean when I was a jerk.

What stories? There is barely any semblance of story in the entire game. Dad leaves the Vault, you look for dad in a wasteland with no cohesive elements but somehow people survive in tiny shacks without getting killed by one of the thousands of raiders or supermutants, then you find dad, dad gets killed, you somehow are not killed and the game jumps the shark and throws in a stupid giant robot, but wait! the robot's not ready! MAKE IT READY DAMMIT! But we need 72 hours to get it operational! YOU HAVE 17 MINUTES! Ok, Liberty Prime go! Col. Autumn is a pussy, game over.

That sums it up right there.

This isn't criticism of a game. This is extreme nitpicking. Like, nitpiking to the level that absolutely nothing could ever live up to the standards put forth by the listed faults. I'm telling you all, LERN 2 BE VALID! Present objects that a person can logically agree with, not random, uneducated attempts to create flaws!

There's no reasoning with you people. God, I wish there was some other way for me to get news, but every time I even try to find something with straight news, I get biased comments and continuous stream of stupid shit! I completely understand this article now! Should I not like the originals now? I am really starting to hate them at this point.

[Retlaw83]

Face it, your all just Black Isle fanboys. Your as bad as Playstation fanboys who get pissed off when their exclusives go to Xbox. Get over it, and enjoy your games.

Wait, fanboys in general are usually bad. That works better.

We're all a bunch of Black Isle fanboys, and yet you're blindly, totally, and unthinkingly supporting Bethesda's every retarded, bumbling mishandling of Fallout 3?

You're making about as much sense as Fallout 3's plot.

Let me make this clear: I have no problems with switching Fallout to first person, a story focusing on somewhere other than the west coast, and a shift from combat mechanics that moves away from character skill and to player skill. The problem I have with Fallout 3 is the plot is an incoherent mess, the dialog atrocious, the player has no real choices to make, and numerous design decisions that are questionable.

What I find extremely telling about Fallout 3 is I can remember several characters from Fallout 1 and 2 - neither of which I've played in about a year - because they had depth and good writing. Conversely, in Fallout 3 the only characters I can remember by name are Ashur and Abraham Washington because they were the only two who weren't cardboard cutouts.

Also, what I found extremely telling was Broken Steel, while suffering a bit from having to follow the logical inconsistencies of the main plot, had far better writing than the original game. What's telling about this is it was developed by a Bethesda Studio somewhere in Europe, located in a country where English is not the primary language. I was shocked to find BoS characters I had wished I could kill for being obnoxious (you know, like in a real Fallout game) spewing dialog that seemed natural, witty, and sounded like the voice actor was actually putting effort into.

Most people are going to disagree with me, but the voice actors in Fallout 3 are good, for the most part. The reason the voice acting in the game is almost uniformly shitty is that, aside from a few major characters - and only a few - the actors had scripts with thousands of lines of dialog written on it shoved in front of them while recording. Due to time constraints and sheer volume of material, they were given little direction on how to say the lines or even the context in which these lines would be said. They simply recited the line in "Old Guy #2", "Raider #6" or "Young Girl #1" voice and moved on.

[Connor]

Face it, your all just Black Isle fanboys. Your as bad as Playstation fanboys who get pissed off when their exclusives go to Xbox. Get over it, and enjoy your games.

Wait, fanboys in general are usually bad. That works better.

We're all a bunch of Black Isle fanboys, and yet you're blindly, totally, and unthinkingly supporting Bethesda's every retarded, bumbling mishandling of Fallout 3?

Have I not already said I love the original Fallouts? Yes I like Bethesda a great deal, but that is not to say that I disregard the previous games. And if I really wanted to, I could decide right now that the 1 & 2 suck and ruin everything. But I won't, because I'd be lying.

You're making about as much sense as Fallout 3's plot.

Seriously, does Fallout 3's story really THAT bad? I mean, come on now! You make it sound like a Gainax ending! Is it that incoherent!? Good Lord, if anybody had ever told me that Fallout would one day suffer from Kingdom of the Crystal Skull syndrome (you know, with everybody hating it yet not making good critiques), I would've laughed! Now I think I'M being the one trolled here!

[Yonmanc]

I did state how bad the storyline was earlier in this thread:

A child tracks down their father to help build a water treatment plant in the ruins of a DC landmark with the help of a techno-religious survivalist outfit who have decided to squander their precious resources fighting a war against mutants hellbent on capturing humans and tying their hands behind their backs. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, the remnants of a shadowy government organisation taking orders from a robotic richard nixon are planning to use said water treatment plant to pollute the radioactive water with an agent that will kill mutants...

Come to think of it, why didn't the BoS and the Enclave just team up? They had the same goal!