The Firearms Thread.

[Yonmanc]

Depends on how you define a 'Machine Gun'.

A rifle that goes BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM dead fast

[Kashluk]

Depends on how you define a 'Machine Gun'.

A rifle that goes BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM dead fast

But is there a size limit? The difference between a machine gun and a(n automatic) cannon is quite artificial.

[jimmypneumatic]

Depends on how you define a 'Machine Gun'.

A rifle that goes BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM dead fast

But is there a size limit? The difference between a machine gun and a(n automatic) cannon is quite artificial.

If you meant artificial in terms of advantage, I would have to disagree. There is morale to factor in. As far as the perspective of the target, there is a certain 'shock and awe' value associated with larger caliber rounds incoming.

In terms of the physiological effects of being unlucky enough to be hit by either one, you're right there's really no difference.

[Kashluk]

My point is: we're talking about the very same piece of machinery, but somehow the terms change from machien gun to auto cannon after the barrel/pipe inner diameter reaches a certain limit. That's what's artificial.

[fallout ranger]

there is a certain 'shock and awe' value associated with larger caliber rounds incoming.

I'm sure, but i don't think anyone's going to stop and think, "hey those aren't 50's, they're 25mm!", point being, any bullets coming towards you have the power to make you shit yourself (that sound is just so unholy and badass).


The gun store here has a demilled DShK. Thing is huge and ugly...but pretty somehow.

Found this, fun to watch.

[jimmypneumatic]

My point is: we're talking about the very same piece of machinery, but somehow the terms change from machien gun to auto cannon after the barrel/pipe inner diameter reaches a certain limit. That's what's artificial.

Ah, ok well that's all true and good... but if you look at weapons such as the A/OICW, you can see where combined functionality can find a happy medium and the best of both worlds.

there is a certain 'shock and awe' value associated with larger caliber rounds incoming.

I'm sure, but i don't think anyone's going to stop and think, "hey those aren't 50's, they're 25mm!", point being, any bullets coming towards you have the power to make you shit yourself (that sound is just so unholy and badass).


The gun store here has a demilled DShK. Thing is huge and ugly...but pretty somehow.

Found this, fun to watch.

Now a GAU-8 is a cannon, nothing artificial there.

[Kashluk]

jimmy, you still missed the point: I wasn't making a stand whether mg's or artillery were 'better' or something. What I was trying to say was that it's silly why you change names at some border, which is set kind of randomly. Why 20mm? Why not 40? Or perhaps 12?

Just philosophising

[Retlaw83]

jimmy, you still missed the point: I wasn't making a stand whether mg's or artillery were 'better' or something. What I was trying to say was that it's silly why you change names at some border, which is set kind of randomly. Why 20mm? Why not 40? Or perhaps 12?

Just philosophising

Everything above .60 caliber is classified as a cannon because with older technology you could only feasibly fire things that large from a cannon. A .12 gauge shotgun is .60 caliber, but I guess they don't count.

The delineation is still applicable today; .50 caliber is just about the largest gun that can be used effectively by foot troops, while larger stuff would need to be mounted on vehicles or in fixed positions as moving them and the ammunition they require would be become problematic.

[Kashluk]

Well, I've always been trained/taught that 'cannons' begin at 20 mm or .79 caliber, so your theory (as nice as it is, though) would not apply in this case. And besides, isn't 12 gauge above .70 already as well?

I just think it's an artificial border. Something more 'concrete' like your "what is effective to use on foot, without a tripod" would feel better.

Anyways, still just philosophising, didn't really mean to make it this big a deal, but oh well, you know me

[fallout ranger]

I just think it's an artificial border. Something more 'concrete' like your "what is effective to use on foot, without a tripod" would feel better.

Agreed, now someone find out about the rumored 30mm extreme range-large target sniping system.

EDIT: closest thing i could find was this. 20mm.

[jimmypneumatic]

^That = Win

jimmy, you still missed the point: I wasn't making a stand whether mg's or artillery were 'better' or something. What I was trying to say was that it's silly why you change names at some border, which is set kind of randomly. Why 20mm? Why not 40? Or perhaps 12?

Just philosophising

Everything above .60 caliber is classified as a cannon because with older technology you could only feasibly fire things that large from a cannon. A .12 gauge shotgun is .60 caliber, but I guess they don't count.

The delineation is still applicable today; .50 caliber is just about the largest gun that can be used effectively by foot troops, while larger stuff would need to be mounted on fixed vehicles or in fixed positions as moving them and the ammunition they require would be become problematic.

Flintlock pistols can shoot slugs that big, and bigger, but its mostly because they don't use an encased round or smokeless powder. Some of the typical civil war era mounted cannons could shoot 'grapeshot', dozens of round inch diameter shot in a wide arc. So that's like a big shotgun. But wait, don't cannons also have to shoot high explosive rounds?

[Retlaw83]

I might be wrong about where the size cuts off, but the definitions I'm working from apply to shell-and-casing munitions fired from something with a rifled barrel.

[Junktown Commando]

That would be a .50 as anything larger is refered to as a cannon, though the Russian 12.7x108mm is often considered the largest machine gun round is often called a .51. It's really just a .50 round that is slightly longer.
So, basically, the Russian DShK would technically be considered the largest machine gun, but there's afew Russian machine guns that use the 12.7x108mm

See, that (mostly) what I thought too. But there’s always something new out there, so I thought I’d ask.

This is what I'm talking about though. I still pray to see Lee Ermey there one day.

¿Are you SURE you want to meet him? I still have nightmares of my CC’s (and I’m planning on meeting one if I get sent to Gulf of Mexico). Sort of…

Depends on how you define a 'Machine Gun'.

Anything belt fed and self-loading is a machinegun, though generally over an unspecified caliber is considered an “Auto Cannon.� (Yes, 20 MM is generally “around� the caliber.)
Loved the pic, BTW.

Everything above .60 caliber is classified as a cannon because with older technology you could only feasibly fire things that large from a cannon. A .12 gauge shotgun is .60 caliber, but I guess they don't count.

¿And you got this where? Other than pulling it out of your ass, that is.

Agreed, now someone find out about the rumored 30mm extreme range-large target sniping system.
EDIT: closest thing i could find was this. 20mm.

¿What is that? It kinda looks like an M-109 (25mm Sniper Rifle), but the barrel is too long…

[Retlaw83]

¿And you got this where? Other than pulling it out of your ass, that is.

Research for papers a long time ago. I seemed to remember my sources saying .60 caliber+ plus is a cannon; wikipedia says 16mm is the cutoff for cannons, which happens to a tad over .60 caliber. I was in the right ballpark; .60 is a lot closer to .629 caliber than Washington, DC is to Georgia.

Keep on failing to make any sort of point, though - you excel at it.

[fallout ranger]

Cannon is more a slang term than anything else, lake pistol (see AR15 *pistol*).

[Wolfman Walt]

Cannon has never been a slang term, it has just fallen out of use. Most modern militaries use specific terms, such as "Artillery" or "Howitzer." Autocannon, however, applies to a specific group of any automatic weapon that fires larger than 20mm projectiles.

Similarly, pistols are not "slang." A lot of experts use pistol to differentiate between integral chambered handguns, such as semi-automatic handguns, and revolvers. Even if you use the broadest lamens definition of it just being interchangeable with "handgun," it's still hardly slang, as pistol is not local to any dialect and is considered standard English (As well as being the same word in a number of other languages).

[Kashluk]

The word 'handgun' is pretty problematic from the Finnish point of view. The English meaning for 'handgun' covers, like Walt just wrote, pistols and revolvers for the most part. But the literal Finnish translation of 'handgun' (käsiase) has actually a meaning of its own: 'weapons that can be used by hand', which covers pretty much everything from pistols and rifles to machine guns and bazookas.

So imagine this: the ignorant journalists, who have no idea what the correct Finnish definitions are, use literal translations of these words they've picked from BBC or CNN on the news they write and publish themselves. Now, after a couple of shooting sprees and a bombing, we have this discussion in the media where firearm experts are using completely different language and jargon than journalists and the 'big public'.

[VasikkA]

CANNONS!!

[Stalagmite]

CANNONS!!

qfe

[4too]

" " ... Been A Long Time Since I Used My NINE ..." "





9? What be a 9? If you can't jump, an' said "Nine what"? Be a polite little motha' and STFU!

... So imagine this: the ignorant journalists, who have no idea what the correct Finnish definitions are, use literal translations of these words they've picked from BBC or CNN on the news they write and publish themselves. ...

Wait, wait wait! 'Teh' Internet to the Rescue!



No matter the format, *comedy* in equals *comedy* out ...



4too