Sept. 11 and the War on Terror: Bullshit or Patriotism?

[Constipated BladeRunner]

on the subject of "this land is ours from the bible"


i dont support that arguement, because the only proof is based on belief see? bible may or may not be true. no, instead, i rather focus on the fact that we got this place thanx to britian


james: the real problem is that terrorists tend to hide in civilian houses... sometimes, even in kindergardens, because they know we wont bomb that sorta places... so, there's a conflict: what can you do? not retaliate(and get kicked because your people demend a retaliation), or retaliate(and risk hurting civilians, and kids too)... its a tough choice, but we try to do the best

rambo... dont mock kashluk, he's not anti- sementic, i tried to explain to you that... but he makes good arguements, best we can do is try to explain our side...

kashluk: wrong, we're not all about "burn them right now for exploding in our towns", some are pretty passive about it,(left-right sides)... and dont forget, tv likes that kind of people: higher rating

*Looks at can, sees worms beggining to poke out* O SHIT! NOT AGAIN!
there is historical evedence of everything post-david in the bible. Also it is very likely that the non fantastic parts of the bible are, for the most part, true- look at the dead sea scrools. If they could keep records that safe for 2,000 something years, why not the full 6,000?
James, once again raises some amazingly valid points, of course on the side of western reason, for Isreal.
Hamas, or the formerly known group of hate fillied fascists known as Hamas, killied people because they where doing things that where not strictly muslim- and of course, any place that involves Muhammed in anyway is a part of the arab world.
Also, we will see changes in the middle east soon, hopefully. The fanatics of the 1970's are dying, being replaced by people who will not support burhkas or praying 5 times a day towards Mecca. things will happen, or else all in the middle east will fail.

[Walks with the Snails]

Um.. "at best second-generation"? I recall all the israelis saying that the land belongs to them, because they lived there before they were banished the first time (including the epic story of the Babel Tower and stuff). All those holes left between the "israeli regime"-periods are filled with arabs, am I right?

Yes, the majority were second-generation immigrants. Before the Jews settled there, the land wasn't very productive at all, so not many people lived there. After things picked up, many more arabs immigrated there. The Jewish residents of Israel do have a valid claim to the area, too. If nothing else, it turned into the de facto dumping ground for Jews from most of the Arab world. What's so wrong with giving them their own area and leaving the other 99% of the Middle East to the Arabs? It's messy, sure, but if you expect international politics to be anything but messy, you're living in a dream world. You don't have to go to biblical times to justify Israel's existence, either, though some people do.

So there are decades, maybe even centuries old families in the so called Palestinia.

And there were decades, maybe even centuries old Jewish families in other countries. They were informed they were no longer welcome after Israel was established. Maybe they liked it where they were, but them's the breaks I guess. What's your point? Like it or not, Israel's already there. The most practical solution by far would be for Arab nations to accept the Palestinians back. Maybe I'm just peculiar and don't have an enormous attachment to my home, but really if I had to choose between staying in a bad situation just because my parents were born or settled there or immigrating to another country with similar beliefs and culture to me, I'd immigrate. The Palestinians weren't and still aren't given that choice, though.

And why aren't any one of them defending themselves here on these boards?

Well, maybe because isralis are so fucking wealthier that they actually can afford to buy computers :roll:

Doesn't that tell something about the "Ak47 + rocks VERSUS M16 + tanks"-thingy already?

Like others said, it's not the kids with rocks that Israel's retaliating against, it's the suicide bombers who target civilians.

Honestly, with the whole underdog thing, I could really care less at this point that the Palestinians don't have tanks. You say they're fighting with all they have, but that's not true. They're fighting a battle they can't win and because of reasons I can't understand, they think that just blind persistence is going to change things. They'd have my sympathy in a second if they took a page out of Mahatma Gandhi's book and stopped the bombings and instead turned to passive, non-violent protest. When they're outmatched militarily and turn to murdering civilians in cold blood, though, that doesn't make them noble or even desperate in my eyes, it makes them petty and cruel. Being weak doesn't automatically make you right any more than being strong does.

[Phoenix]

now for identifying them, you know, the "palastinians" we've decided to place a green half moon, the old yellow magen david is getting kinda old fashion, dont you think?

I would like to point out that all Palestinians living in Israel are issued blue license plates on their cars so that they cannot easily pass through checkpoints. I would also like to point out that they are forced to live in ghettos, much like Jewish residents of Poland in the 30's and 40's. There are many other similarities to the Nazi regime. Saying that the Israelis are the new Nazis is not name calling, it is simply a historical comparison.

You are either-
A) Very ignorant
b) Very stupid
C) Very Fascist.
I dont care what anyone says, Isreal was the Jew's right, and muslims should not be destroying themselves and others with the "this is our land" excuse. Isreal, at least, would allow religious freedome if granted control over palistine.
Also, Palistinians started mass suicide bombings a few weeks ago. The Isrealies gave curfews and several other "opressive" measures.
Only 2 bombings have hit in the last month and a 1/2.
Both of them where on a jewish holy day.
(C is because fascists will side with anyone over Jews)

"You are either-
A) Very ignorant
b) Very stupid
C) Very Fascist"

thats a good way to discuss.... actually, i am suprised that the jews managed to claim a land using information from their holy scirps.

Yes the Jews did get unjustly kicked around in Europe, and
I can understand why they would want to concetrate their
numbers for mutual defence. What they should be trying to
do ,while sheiding themselves with one hand, is use the
other hand to make friends with moderate Arabs. Those
settlements they built are a waste. They don't produce alot
of capital and force them to spend alot on defending them.
Their strikes against Palestinains while slow the spread of
terrorism in the short term, they are not a long term
solution. They hurt themselves over the long term, because
evry time they make a mistake (collateral damage) they send
new recruits to Hammas and other groups.Terrorist groups
thrive on retaliation. Just look at the history of
terrorism, whether it be the IRA or Hezzbolah.

We must remember the Isrealites left palestine for egypt
of their own free will, got enslaved ,got freed and went
back, slaughtered the people who lived in Palestine. they
in turn got attacked and thrown out of the region. Then
centuries later came back and the whole stupid cycle
started over again. The ancient isrealites only excuse, God
wanted us to do it. What's their excuse now?


How often in human history have people used the God card
to legitamize tyranizing their neighbors. Every one wants
to beleive that they are the righeous and their opponents
are wicked. "Prophecy" like all divination is vague, so
it always comes true ,in a manner of speaking.

As long as RELIGION is part of the equation, there will
never be peace. Religion makes people look down on those
who don't beleive as they do. They start to beleive they
are the "chosen" of God and everyone else is a heathan to
be converted or killed. So much for the God of infinite
compassion. If a father loves only some of his childeren at
the expence of the others, then he is a bad father. If HE
lets his favorites commit horrible deeds upon the less
favored HE is a horrible father. If his children are
wicked, he should look at himself first, he probably didn't
raise them well.

the Palestians don't use religion as a weapon. As I
understand it. Patriotism to a Palestianian state is what
drives these uprisings, religion is a part of it, but not
the whole thing. Suicide bombers allow a near helpless
people to attack their enemy. They know they can't take the
feild against the Isrealis. Isreali thinking is if they hit
the Palestinains hard enough, they will accept peace on
Isreal's terms. Both sides are ignoring the past, both are
using tactics that haven't worked yet and probable won't. I
think it comes down to pride. Neither side wants to admit
that their way doesn't work, and try "the other way".
Where is a Ghandi or Dr. King when you need them?

Some main questions:

Why was the jewish state formed?
How could it come that it was formed over another nations
territory and where is the justification for that?

Where is the justification for the jewish state to exist in
Palestinian territory? The bible? Because they lived there
for several thousands of years ago?

Let me ask you americans what you would say if a Native
American one day said that he wanted the u.s eastcoast back
cause he lived there for 500 years ago? What if he used
military force to install himself and his people there and
deported your family to misery in Mexican refugee camps
where you were treated as shit? Would you accept that?

Remember that you took the native americans lands for just
500 years ago with military force, 500 years aint that much
but its enough for 6-7 generations to be rooted there. I
for one do not think that with todays moral about the issue
would be right for this native american to claim the land
for himself.

500 years, ok? Now, the jews had a abstract semi-state were
Palestine is now for 3000 years or more. How many
generations of Palestinians have not rooted themselves
there? Would u accept the above scenario and give away the
land you lived in for so many years to a gang of refugeez
that look down on you and your family?

OR, would you take up arms and fight for your right to the
land you have cultivated? Do you see my point?

The question is not wheter the israelis should back off
from the westbank and Gaza, the quesion is DO ISRAEL HAVE
THE RIGHT TO TAKE PALESTINE WITH FORCE? DOES THE NATIVE
AMERICAN HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOOT YOUR PEOPLE AND CLAIM THE
AMERICAN CONTINENTS?

Once again, would you accept to be deported and see your
relatives killed?

Do israel have the right to exist? Where the jews treated
badly in history in the middle-east?


??

Any comments?

[the guardian]

loooong

but ive read it all

for the first part of your reply, concerning using the religion card:

thats why i said i dont support that arguement

now on the palastinian drive

palastinians dont use religion as a weapon? dude, why do you think they go explodie? brainwashing and poor quality of life: promises that he's serving a holy goal, that in heaven he'll have 70 virgins, and that he's a holy warrior that serves allah. ofcourse they're using religion for their weapon!

israel "hit" because the people want the goverment to retaliate... here's a thought: your mom died in an explosion, how do you feel? angry, and wishing revenge. and how do you avange? by retaliating....

ghandi's in the grave

the jewish state was formed for a few reasons... other then the historical reason, there's also, the holocust reason: 6 million has died, and it "might" of been prevented if we had a country... a safe house, a place where we wont be presecuted anymore, our own country, and we got it! and the twisted irony? thanks for the nazis :twisted: (please dont flame me for that comment, but i think its true)

it was formed over british terretory, and it the land was split fifty fifty...more or less

on the ground of what right we have to take their ground by force... non,unless you take the history base(which i dont), but if i recall, when we had the liberty war, you know, all the arab nations around attacked us for having a country, the palastinians werent very docile on the matter and joined the attack.... what can i say, you pay for your dues.

also, why bother with why we're here? we're not going to go, we cannot go, and in case there's a threat for the stability of the country, we'd nuke whoever is trying to take the land away from us....
its realy quite pointless, i mean, suppose you're completely, and absolutely right, and i have no real base to why i have the right to live here, what do you expect us to do? move away? very, very, fat chances for that.

[Walks with the Snails]

If the moderate arabs were a little more willing to brave the often lethal scorn of the fundamentalists to deal with Israel, I imagine Israel would be more than willing to work something out. Unfortunately, moderate Arabs in high places tend to have short careers. See Anwar Sadat.

It would be nice to think that everyone would be able to live in harmony, but every overture Israel has made seems to be met with disdain followed by violence. Look at the Camp David talks in 2000. In June, Israel offered an eminently negotiable deal, then sweetened it in December. What were their overtures met with? An intifada. Really, what do you expect them to do in their position? I honestly believe there is a significant portion of the Arab world that really won't settle for anything other than the total annihilation of Israel, and unfortuanately they're not at all squeamish of assassinating any of their own people who disagree. Nothing Israel can offer will appease them.

And guess who owned what's now Israel when it was established? Britain. So no, it wasn't formed over "some other nation's property", it was freely given. Whether you think the British Empire deserved to own it, there wasn't any inconvenient little sovereign country at the time that was neatly swept out of the way to make Israel.

And do you know how Israel got the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? Three of Israel's neighbors thought it would be cute to simultaneously invade and wipe the country off the face of the map, but Israel beat back all three of them at the same time and seized some of their surrounding land. The borders as they were set up were basically indefensible, so they kept the land as spoils of war. They did give back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, even though they held it as well. Had those nations not invaded, they wouldn't have lost the land. Maybe they should have thought things through a little more before attacking. A lot of Israelis are worried that if they give back too much land and make their borders indefensible again, there will just be another invasion. Given that their neighbors don't seem any friendlier to them now than they were then, I can't say I can fault their reasoning. Even in the face of all that, they were still willing to give up practically all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, only keeping some territory for defense against invasion and giving up some of their own territory in exchange. Still not good enough, though, better ramp up the suicide bombers again. Really, what on earth do you expect them to do? I'd really like to hear your plan that deals with specifics rather than just general, pie-in-the-sky, "Can't we just all get along" BS.

[rambo]

he's not anti- sementic

but he sure dont like us...or maby tring to understand us....

yo kash...
why when israelis die the world decides to shut up and when we do something he starts talking against us??????

iam sure i said it other forum but ill say it again

the palestinians are living by the "korun" (thier holy book)
and they belive in something called "ASU UD"

means: israel is our land and i dont care what the world would do and ill die on this land knowing that this is mine and ill fight back and kill who ever want to take it away from me and nothing would change my mind

now you have to understand that you may get a peace with the palestinians leaders but the palestinians ppl will still hate us and want us dead

so tell me plz how the hell do you want us to live with ppl who wants us dead??????

[Phoenix]

If the moderate arabs were a little more willing to brave the often lethal scorn of the fundamentalists to deal with Israel, I imagine Israel would be more than willing to work something out. Unfortunately, moderate Arabs in high places tend to have short careers. See Anwar Sadat.

It would be nice to think that everyone would be able to live in harmony, but every overture Israel has made seems to be met with disdain followed by violence. Look at the Camp David talks in 2000. In June, Israel offered an eminently negotiable deal, then sweetened it in December. What were their overtures met with? An intifada. Really, what do you expect them to do in their position? I honestly believe there is a significant portion of the Arab world that really won't settle for anything other than the total annihilation of Israel, and unfortuanately they're not at all squeamish of assassinating any of their own people who disagree. Nothing Israel can offer will appease them.

that comprimise (camp david?) didn't include alot of
things, which were all part of UN resolutions and
recomendations by the Mitchell report. Isreal met few of
the Palestinians demands. All and all it was an insult to
the Palestinains. They can't wash away this conflict with
table scaps. Things like water rights, the right of return
and illegal settlements are a big deal, which the Isrealis
didn't give an inch on.

And guess who owned what's now Israel when it was established? Britain. So no, it wasn't formed over "some other nation's property", it was freely given. Whether you think the British Empire deserved to own it, there wasn't any inconvenient little sovereign country at the time that was neatly swept out of the way to make Israel.

But you had to misstreat the people that lived there right? Besides it was based on the "proof of the bible"!

And do you know how Israel got the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? Three of Israel's neighbors thought it would be cute to simultaneously invade and wipe the country off the face of the map, but Israel beat back all three of them at the same time and seized some of their surrounding land. The borders as they were set up were basically indefensible, so they kept the land as spoils of war. They did give back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, even though they held it as well. Had those nations not invaded, they wouldn't have lost the land. Maybe they should have thought things through a little more before attacking. A lot of Israelis are worried that if they give back too much land and make their borders indefensible again, there will just be another invasion. Given that their neighbors don't seem any friendlier to them now than they were then, I can't say I can fault their reasoning. Even in the face of all that, they were still willing to give up practically all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, only keeping some territory for defense against invasion and giving up some of their own territory in exchange. Still not good enough, though, better ramp up the suicide bombers again. Really, what on earth do you expect them to do? I'd really like to hear your plan that deals with specifics rather than just general, pie-in-the-sky, "Can't we just all get along" BS.

Yeah, really, and what do you base that on?

Neither the Palestinians nor Isrealis are victims. They
push each other. They are like children,They have to be
told to stop, and when the "parent" turns around one or the
other start the whole mess again. Someone needs to stop the
car and spack both of them ( the US should cut off aid to
both until they both comply with the UN resolutions).

Compromise requires both sides to give up somethimg they want, It's a
trade and Israel won't give up anything.

[the guardian]

rambo: who beseder, beemet, haketa ze shehem mihool, lo meisrael, az yesh lahem behaya liklot dvarim sheanahno lokhim kemovan meelav, ok?


and you're generalizing again... yesh palastinim metonim ahi, leagid shekolam fanatim ze cmo lehagid shekol hayehodim baaley zakan shomrey mitzvot


pheonix: they werent mistreated: 50% 50%, that was the deal, i believe it went population concetration wise


we offered much... barak offered alot, but the answer was no... i also wonder, what exacly is your plan? compromise, compromise, we've done alot of compromising in past offers, realy, we did, but there are few things that they want, and we cannot compromise, for it would destroy the stability of the state... jerusalem, the right of returning(zhoot hashiva rambo.), im not sure how you call it in english, but i think you're familiar with it.... some things cannot be compromised, because they'd practicly cancel israel...

but basicly, i think barak offered them a very good offered, and its their loss for not accapting

i dont get your last reply to wws's post...what does he base what one? how we got the west bank and gaza. or why we're trying to avoid giving terretory back? he basicly said what i wanted to say, only with better words

[Phoenix]

rambo: who beseder, beemet, haketa ze shehem mihool, lo meisrael, az yesh lahem behaya liklot dvarim sheanahno lokhim kemovan meelav, ok?


and you're generalizing again... yesh palastinim metonim ahi, leagid shekolam fanatim ze cmo lehagid shekol hayehodim baaley zakan shomrey mitzvot


pheonix: they werent mistreated: 50% 50%, that was the deal, i believe it went population concetration wise


we offered much... barak offered alot, but the answer was no... i also wonder, what exacly is your plan? compromise, compromise, we've done alot of compromising in past offers, realy, we did, but there are few things that they want, and we cannot compromise, for it would destroy the stability of the state... jerusalem, the right of returning(zhoot hashiva rambo.), im not sure how you call it in english, but i think you're familiar with it.... some things cannot be compromised, because they'd practicly cancel israel...

but basicly, i think barak offered them a very good offered, and its their loss for not accapting

Camp David seemed to Arafat to encapsulate his worst nightmares. It was high-wire summitry, designed to increase the pressure on the Palestinians to reach a quick agreement while heightening the political and symbolic costs if they did not. And it clearly was a Clinton/ Barak idea both in concept and timing, and for that reason alone highly suspect. That the US issued the invitations despite Israel's refusal to carry out its earlier commitments and despite Arafat's plea for additional time to prepare only reinforced in his mind the sense of a US-Israeli conspiracy.

On June 15, during his final meeting with Clinton before Camp David, Arafat set forth his case: Barak had not implemented prior agreements, there had been no progress in the negotiations, and the prime minister was holding all the cards. The only conceivable outcome of going to a summit, he told Secretary Albright, was to have everything explode in the President's face. If there is no summit, at least there will still be hope. The summit is our last card, Arafat said—do you really want to burn it? In the end, Arafat went to Camp David, for not to do so would have been to incur America's anger; but he went intent more on surviving than on benefiting from it.

The final and largely unnoticed consequence of Barak's approach is that, strictly speaking, there never was an Israeli offer. Determined to preserve Israel's position in the event of failure, and resolved not to let the Palestinians take advantage of one-sided compromises, the Israelis always stopped one, if not several, steps short of a proposal. The ideas put forward at Camp David were never stated in writing, but orally conveyed. They generally were presented as US concepts, not Israeli ones; indeed, despite having demanded the opportunity to negotiate face to face with Arafat, Barak refused to hold any substantive meeting with him at Camp David out of fear that the Palestinian leader would seek to put Israeli concessions on the record. Nor were the proposals detailed. If written down, the American ideas at Camp David would have covered no more than a few pages.

so no, they didn´t offer much.

i dont get your last reply to wws's post...what does he base what one? how we got the west bank and gaza. or why we're trying to avoid giving terretory back? he basicly said what i wanted to say, only with better words

no i wondered where he got the information from about Israel wanting to give upp Gaza and the west bank.

[Phoenix]

Btw, do you israelies think that Ariel Sharon is a good man?

[Beren]

I really don't care what they do to each other. If you're not a friend or family member, I could care less.

The problem is, my country sends Israel billions of dollars every year. We cut spending in everything else, but never have we cut spending to Israel. Now we lose two of my favorite buildings because we are in bed with them

I want you guys to fight forever for all I care! You hate them, they hate you, it's exciting! Just do it on your own, without our dirty money. If America (and others?) weren't footing the bill, we would be looking at a very different picture in the Middle East. I suppose if all you had was sticks and stones, it would be a little harder to kill each other, but you could probably get creative.

The funniest thing is, when they take their hats off, I can't tell an Israeli from a Palestinian! I've been to bed with both kinds and it was a lot of fun. Love not war, baby!

[rambo]

The funniest thing is, when they take their hats off, I can't tell an Israeli from a Palestinian! I've been to bed with both kinds and it was a lot of fun. Love not war, baby!

the palestinian would have a C4 belt.....

and phoenix...
yea i thinks that Sharon is better than BARAK or NETANYAHU

[boywoos]

[/quote]

the palestinians are living by the "korun" (thier holy book)
and they belive in something called "ASU UD"

means: israel is our land and i dont care what the world would do and ill die on this land knowing that this is mine and ill fight back and kill who ever want to take it away from me and nothing would change my mind

[/quote]

I'm sorry but this is absolute nonsense and if you actually took the time to read the Koran you would realise this.

You also seem to suggest that the Islamic peoples participate in wholescale genocide whenever they occupy an area. Again this is a very foolish comment due to the fact that Islam [with regards to other monotheistic religions] is one of the most tolerable religions. For instance, when Spain was conquered by the Moors, the Caliphs allowed all other religions to practice the only minor difference was that other religions paid marginally higher taxes.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, don't pidgeonhole an entire religion as violent due to a minority. [BTW in case anyone thinks that I'm a bias practicioner of Islam, I'm not. I'm the worst of the bunch: RC]

[VasikkA]

yea i thinks that Sharon is better than BARAK or NETANYAHU

Well, it is Sharon's policy that has caused the magnitude of this conflict. It is way more serious than it was during Barak and Netanyahu, they seeked a peaceful solution more actively.

I guess it's democracy, but people who have voted has partially caused this recent conflict. Time will tell if Sharons policy is successful or not. People wanted Action, and Action they got, from both sides, israeli and palestinian.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Sorry, my attention span skipped out on the third paragraph of Fenix (that is how you spell it in StarCraft) responce.
a) It can be assumed that everything around David is more or less true in the bible. Pretty everyone who thinks that the old testement as a historical record is ludicrous died in 1874, with the discovery of the Hittite empire. So we know at least at some point in pre-assyrian Isreal the jews- or the group of people who became the jews- where there.
You say Israel used the religion card.
How amazingly short sighted.
Okay, here is how it pretty much goes- THE CIRCLE OF HATE!
Islamic Fundementalists kill Isrealies who kill Hamas leaders, which gets the moderate arab population, which was almost completley wiped out in the '70s, angry who then go fundementalist, who then kill innocent Isreali citizens who's friends join the isreali army.
The only hope of the middle east is that the fundementalists of the 70's are dying, like in Saudi Arabia.

[Kashluk]

The only hope of the middle east is that the fundementalists of the 70's are dying, like in Saudi Arabia.

ADD: that both the jew and muslim fundamentalists of the 70's are dying, like it should be.

Phoenix:

You got some nice info there and lots of decent comments. I think you're a great debater. Peace, brother!

kashluk: wrong, we're not all about "burn them right now for exploding in our towns", some are pretty passive about it,(left-right sides)... and dont forget, tv likes that kind of people: higher rating

To both TG & James

Damn, I overreacted again... I meant that IMO it's pretty much propaganda how much the israelis want peace. My point: the average palestinian isn't any more or less evil than an average israeli. But most of the je... israelis don't seem to accept that kind of view on things.

Sorry if I offended anyone, like James for example, who shares lots of believes with me.

th the Snails]Like others said, it's not the kids with rocks that Israel's retaliating against, it's the suicide bombers who target civilians.

Honestly, with the whole underdog thing, I could really care less at this point that the Palestinians don't have tanks. You say they're fighting with all they have, but that's not true. They're fighting a battle they can't win and because of reasons I can't understand, they think that just blind persistence is going to change things. They'd have my sympathy in a second if they took a page out of Mahatma Gandhi's book and stopped the bombings and instead turned to passive, non-violent protest. When they're outmatched militarily and turn to murdering civilians in cold blood, though, that doesn't make them noble or even desperate in my eyes, it makes them petty and cruel. Being weak doesn't automatically make you right any more than being strong does.

If I remember right this all began with those non-violent protests. Then one military police pushes a protestor, another protestor throws a rock, one military police uses the baton, another protestor starts kicking the police, some military police open fire (rubber-headed bullets) at the crowd BAM next you know you have suicide bombers

It's one thing leading to another.

he's not anti- sementic

but he sure dont like us...or maby tring to understand us....

yo kash...
why when israelis die the world decides to shut up and when we do something he starts talking against us??????

iam sure i said it other forum but ill say it again

the palestinians are living by the "korun" (thier holy book)
and they belive in something called "ASU UD"

means: israel is our land and i dont care what the world would do and ill die on this land knowing that this is mine and ill fight back and kill who ever want to take it away from me and nothing would change my mind

now you have to understand that you may get a peace with the palestinians leaders but the palestinians ppl will still hate us and want us dead

so tell me plz how the hell do you want us to live with ppl who wants us dead??????

That's just propaganda... No, really. Do you think all the palestinians want you killed? It's more like vice versa (did I type that right, btw?) IMO.

And please try to understand I have nothing against jews. Jews in general (though haven't met too many) are just like everyone else. We're all human beings in the end, eh?

[Walks with the Snails]

that comprimise (camp david?) didn't include alot of
things, which were all part of UN resolutions and
recomendations by the Mitchell report. Isreal met few of
the Palestinians demands. All and all it was an insult to
the Palestinains. They can't wash away this conflict with
table scaps. Things like water rights, the right of return
and illegal settlements are a big deal, which the Isrealis
didn't give an inch on.

Yeah, scraps like control of 95% (something like that, the number eludes me right now) of the West Bank and Gaza and joint control of Jerusalem. Cry me a river. Funny you talk about Palestinian demands, what exactly were they willing to give up? Even you agree, compromise means both sides have to be willing to give something up.

But you had to misstreat the people that lived there right? Besides it was based on the "proof of the bible"!

Who's "you"? I wasn't there. I'm not even British. Well, unless you count back 15 generations or so. And even then only partially.

And proof of the Bible was only part of it. If all we cared about was proof of the Bible, most of the Western world would all be getting medieval on Italy because of what the Romans did to Christians 2000 years ago. Yeah, the spot was chosen because it was the ancestral home of the Jews. It was also decided that the Jews needed a homeland. Had there not been the second political reality, nobody would have cared about where the Jews came from any more than they had for the 1900 years before that.

Neither the Palestinians nor Isrealis are victims. They
push each other. They are like children,They have to be
told to stop, and when the "parent" turns around one or the
other start the whole mess again. Someone needs to stop the
car and spack both of them ( the US should cut off aid to
both until they both comply with the UN resolutions).

Yeah, knew we'd get to the moral equivalence at some point. It's not the same. On the scale of wrongness, targeting civilians > retaliating against terrorists. When the Palestinians start exclusively blowing up Isreali army bases and the Israelis respond by opening up their machineguns on crowded streets saying they won't stop until the Palestinians do, then we can talk about Israeli atrocities.

Compromise requires both sides to give up somethimg they want, It's a
trade and Israel won't give up anything.

Yeah, that's good. Tell me one "compromise" the Palestinians have been willing to make. You seem to know all kinds that the Israelis haven't made. They're really good at coming up with demands but seem to come up short when it comes to what they're willing to give up. I certainly can't think of any off the top of my head. Barak made plenty of compromises in the talks. I haven't heard any that Arafat made. Yeah, I'm sure they really caught him flat-footed, he's been in charge how many years now? If he didn't have a fairly good idea of the situation after all the times and all the prime ministers he's dealt with by now, he must be going senile. Clinton-Barak conspiracy theories aside, what substantive thing do you have to support that Arafat has ever made any kind of agreements in good faith? He says one thing to us in English and another to his people in Arabic, and every time it comes to negotiations, he expects everything that's been promised before and more without giving up anything himself. Sorry, I wouldn't be bending over backwards to accomodate someone like that, either.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Neverending thread,
Neverending thread,
Discussion as old as time,
Song as old as rhyme
America in the west
Europe in the east
Yeah, whatever, it has been about 12 years sense I saw that movie

[James]

Sorry if I offended anyone

No offence taken here, I'm just in it for the debate


It's an easy subject to get emotive about anyway.

That's just propaganda... No, really. Do you think all the palestinians want you killed? It's more like vice versa (did I type that right, btw?) IMO.

Well yes it's propaganda, but looking at the support that the terrorists (or would you prefer that I called them by their self-styled martyr title?) receive it's quite popular propaganda.

And I believe that there is a large (read majority) section of the Israeli population, including many in the military, who don't want to kill anyone and would simply like to live in peace. I think that most people there don't hate anyone really, apart from those who would shot at them randomly, or blow them up at bus stops.

the palestinians are living by the "korun" (thier holy book)

Whoever said this originally forgot to mention that the ones who take peoples lives in hate are being a little hypocritical, and very selective and biased about the parts they chose to read and the parts they ignore.

what substantive thing do you have to support that Arafat has ever made any kind of agreements in good faith? He says one thing to us in English and another to his people in Arabic, and every time it comes to negotiations, he expects everything that's been promised before and more without giving up anything himself

Sadly this seems to be the case, although to give him some credit his job must be one hell of a juggling act.

And without getting into whether Arafat wants to stop the terrorists or not, external support for them must be curtailed before much can be achieved in that regard.



On History and such...

The thing to remember about all the history (and religious history) is, whilst most of it is important and worth remembering, it shouldn't be used to justify aggression. The simple fact of the matter is that in the Israel/Gaza/West Bank area there are both Israelis and Palestinians living there.

So regardless of the history of people in the area (or of the Jewish people in Europe) or whatever, the most important thing now is that both peoples live there, and neither is just going to go somewhere else. In this regard history is unimportant and dangerous, as it gives extremists some rationality to base their views on.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Qu'ran or Koran.
I like the first because it sounds like something from Warcraft.
Religion, in my view is to dangerous to be held by men.
Mankind is to utterly corruptible to be able to say "I SPEAK FOR THE PERSON WHO IS ALL POWERFUL AND MADE YOU!", though I still consider myself agnostic primarily because from a philosophical/ scientific god is interesting and even makes a certain amount of sense.