Sept. 11 and the War on Terror: Bullshit or Patriotism?

[Phoenix]

that comprimise (camp david?) didn't include alot of
things, which were all part of UN resolutions and
recomendations by the Mitchell report. Isreal met few of
the Palestinians demands. All and all it was an insult to
the Palestinains. They can't wash away this conflict with
table scaps. Things like water rights, the right of return
and illegal settlements are a big deal, which the Isrealis
didn't give an inch on.

Yeah, scraps like control of 95% (something like that, the number eludes me right now) of the West Bank and Gaza and joint control of Jerusalem. Cry me a river. Funny you talk about Palestinian demands, what exactly were they willing to give up? Even you agree, compromise means both sides have to be willing to give something up.

if its the price for peace, why not give it up? its not theirs from the start right? Or hey! lets not give this up and continiue to attack and kill eachother.. Kinda sefish huh....
It´s kinda hard when most of the things you HAD have been taken from you!? See it like this: this bully takes your lunch and money, and to get him to stop harrasing you and perhaps get some of the money and food back, you have to offer something else, like a shirt or whatever... see my point or are you still filled with your prejudice against the palestinian people? I have nothing against jews, palestinians, israelies,

people dont kill people, people with guns(and tanks/C4 kill) kill people.

But you had to misstreat the people that lived there right? Besides it was based on the "proof of the bible"!

Who's "you"? I wasn't there. I'm not even British. Well, unless you count back 15 generations or so. And even then only partially

And proof of the Bible was only part of it. If all we cared about was proof of the Bible, most of the Western world would all be getting medieval on Italy because of what the Romans did to Christians 2000 years ago. Yeah, the spot was chosen because it was the ancestral home of the Jews. It was also decided that the Jews needed a homeland. Had there not been the second political reality, nobody would have cared about where the Jews came from any more than they had for the 1900 years before that.

ok, so if the kurdish people need a place to stay, lets select place in great brittain for them to settle their kurdistan country on, i mean, they have been harrased long enough and im sure that you can find someting in the koran that claim the south of great brittain as the old homeland of the kurds? See where your resoning is going?

Yeah, that's good. Tell me one "compromise" the Palestinians have been willing to make. You seem to know all kinds that the Israelis haven't made. They're really good at coming up with demands but seem to come up short when it comes to what they're willing to give up. I certainly can't think of any off the top of my head. Barak made plenty of compromises in the talks. I haven't heard any that Arafat made. Yeah, I'm sure they really caught him flat-footed, he's been in charge how many years now? If he didn't have a fairly good idea of the situation after all the times and all the prime ministers he's dealt with by now, he must be going senile. Clinton-Barak conspiracy theories aside, what substantive thing do you have to support that Arafat has ever made any kind of agreements in good faith? He says one thing to us in English and another to his people in Arabic, and every time it comes to negotiations, he expects everything that's been promised before and more without giving up anything himself. Sorry, I wouldn't be bending over backwards to accomodate someone like that, either.

try not to think up anything in this debate from your head, facts are better, so read about it instead.
who said that i supported arafat? prejudice perhaps?

Thanks kashluk, we seem to agree alot don´t we! :crazyeyes:

[Walks with the Snails]

if its the price for peace, why not give it up? its not theirs from the start right? Or hey! lets not give this up and continiue to attack and kill eachother.. Kinda sefish huh....
It´s kinda hard when most of the things you HAD have been taken from you!? See it like this: this bully takes your lunch and money, and to get him to stop harrasing you and perhaps get some of the money and food back, you have to offer something else, like a shirt or whatever... see my point or are you still filled with your prejudice against the palestinian people? I have nothing against jews, palestinians, israelies,

people dont kill people, people with guns(and tanks/C4 kill) kill people.

Wow, an unprovoked personal attack, very mature. Because I'm stating a point of view I'm now prejudiced, huh.

And nice dodge. You've pretty much proven my point, though. How about in the future you just say "capitulation" instead of "compromise" when it comes to what you expect from the Israelis, okay. Don't use a nice word implying mutual give-and-take and then go on about how the Israelis are the ones blowing the deal if you don't mean it.

try not to think up anything in this debate from your head, facts are better, so read about it instead.
who said that i supported arafat? prejudice perhaps?

Wow, that's a good one. From what I've seen, I've been the only one providing anything resembling facts whatsoever in our discussion. But I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, huh.

And who said I said you supported Arafat? You played it off like he was being victimized by the whole process, and I was responding to that. I guess when all else fails, attack the person instead of the argument though, right?

[Phoenix]

if its the price for peace, why not give it up? its not theirs from the start right? Or hey! lets not give this up and continiue to attack and kill eachother.. Kinda sefish huh....
It´s kinda hard when most of the things you HAD have been taken from you!? See it like this: this bully takes your lunch and money, and to get him to stop harrasing you and perhaps get some of the money and food back, you have to offer something else, like a shirt or whatever... see my point or are you still filled with your prejudice against the palestinian people? I have nothing against jews, palestinians, israelies,

people dont kill people, people with guns(and tanks/C4 kill) kill people.

Wow, an unprovoked personal attack, very mature. Because I'm stating a point of view I'm now prejudiced, huh.

And nice dodge. You've pretty much proven my point, though. How about in the future you just say "capitulation" instead of "compromise" when it comes to what you expect from the Israelis, okay. Don't use a nice word implying mutual give-and-take and then go on about how the Israelis are the ones blowing the deal if you don't mean it.

i would hardly call it unprovoked, but sure, i attacked you, i admit it, cause you seem to be taking alot of what you say from thin air. but.....
ok, so if im so wrong, what would stop the war? what is your solution? if the israelies don´t back of and hamaz dosn´t stop bombing, it wont stop, but what is your idea? i would like to hear your creative side on this?

try not to think up anything in this debate from your head, facts are better, so read about it instead.
who said that i supported arafat? prejudice perhaps?

Wow, that's a good one. From what I've seen, I've been the only one providing anything resembling facts whatsoever in our discussion. But I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, huh.

Link whatever info you have stated here to what page you got it from news or whatever, i can do that, can yo? i forgive you for you continiued prejudice against me.

And who said I said you supported Arafat? You played it off like he was being victimized by the whole process, and I was responding to that. I guess when all else fails, attack the person instead of the argument though, right?[/b]

first of all, i can make you read about camp david, if you like, its not that iteresting but i can create a link for you if you want, let me know after that what you think. I do not like arafat, but i do belive that he has a very ungreatfull job.

well, i apoligize for my attack, even if you did it back.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

On History and such...

The thing to remember about all the history (and religious history) is, whilst most of it is important and worth remembering, it shouldn't be used to justify aggression. The simple fact of the matter is that in the Israel/Gaza/West Bank area there are both Israelis and Palestinians living there.

So regardless of the history of people in the area (or of the Jewish people in Europe) or whatever, the most important thing now is that both peoples live there, and neither is just going to go somewhere else. In this regard history is unimportant and dangerous, as it gives extremists some rationality to base their views on.

I think this is a very good point.

It's also worth remembering that history always has a before; there is a starting point for everything. The Palestinians claim rights to the area because they look back to a point when they controlled it and say "See, it was ours." The Israelis look back to a different point and say the same thing. If you keep going back, eventually you run out of records, and noone can say who was there first. Thus, all claims to rights of ownership based upon initial occupation are invalid because they cannot be indesputably substantiated.

Any other past-occupation-based claims to rights of ownership must be based on conquest. The claimant's people must have conquered whoever was already in the area to take control. So, we have to ask, do we accept right of conquest? Recent international politics would suggest not. We (various UN/NATO/friendly countries) intervened in WWII, Kuwait, Bosnia and others to prevent conquest of territory. In fact, many smaller, less powerful countries could not exist if right of conquest was considered valid and acceptable.

Palestine and Israel justify all of their actions through the past. Either supposed past territorial rights or revenge for past activities undertaken by the other side. The problem is that past will never go away. It has happened and cannot be changed. Until they let it go, the conflict cannot be resolved. Both sides need leadership that understands this and works for the present and the future.

Palestinians need decent homes. Israelis need security. Neither can be achieved with tanks or suicide bombings unless one side commits genocide.

-----

CBR (and others), regarding your replies to my earlier statement about facism: no country is immune to such things. An attitude of complacency and an assumption that democracy makes us immune leaves us very vulnerable.

[Phoenix]

On History and such...

The thing to remember about all the history (and religious history) is, whilst most of it is important and worth remembering, it shouldn't be used to justify aggression. The simple fact of the matter is that in the Israel/Gaza/West Bank area there are both Israelis and Palestinians living there.

So regardless of the history of people in the area (or of the Jewish people in Europe) or whatever, the most important thing now is that both peoples live there, and neither is just going to go somewhere else. In this regard history is unimportant and dangerous, as it gives extremists some rationality to base their views on.

I think this is a very good point.

It's also worth remembering that history always has a before; there is a starting point for everything. The Palestinians claim rights to the area because they look back to a point when they controlled it and say "See, it was ours." The Israelis look back to a different point and say the same thing. If you keep going back, eventually you run out of records, and noone can say who was there first. Thus, all claims to rights of ownership based upon initial occupation are invalid because they cannot be indesputably substantiated.

Any other past-occupation-based claims to rights of ownership must be based on conquest. The claimant's people must have conquered whoever was already in the area to take control. So, we have to ask, do we accept right of conquest? Recent international politics would suggest not. We (various UN/NATO/friendly countries) intervened in WWII, Kuwait, Bosnia and others to prevent conquest of territory. In fact, many smaller, less powerful countries could not exist if right of conquest was considered valid and acceptable.

Palestine and Israel justify all of their actions through the past. Either supposed past territorial rights or revenge for past activities undertaken by the other side. The problem is that past will never go away. It has happened and cannot be changed. Until they let it go, the conflict cannot be resolved. Both sides need leadership that understands this and works for the present and the future.

Palestinians need decent homes. Israelis need security. Neither can be achieved with tanks or suicide bombings unless one side commits genocide.

-----

CBR (and others), regarding your replies to my earlier statement about facism: no country is immune to such things. An attitude of complacency and an assumption that democracy makes us immune leaves us very vulnerable.

A very good post. i agree with you in most parts.

[Kashluk]

Here-here! Nice reply C.O.I.O.

[Walks with the Snails]

I also agree. It's mainly when I see things like this:

if its the price for peace, why not give it up? its not theirs from the start right? Or hey! lets not give this up and continiue to attack and kill eachother.. Kinda sefish huh....

that I think many people are being anything but even-handed towards Israel, even when they claim they are. I only bring up points of historical legitimacy to counter those who say Israel's claims are wholly illegitimate. You want to get beyond that and talk about working out the present situation, fine. Get beyond it and stop demanding the Israelis must unilaterally capitulate to any demands the Palestinians might make, however unreasonable, because "its not theirs from the start". And taking a parting shot that because they live in nicer houses, so of course they must be the bad guys. Sorry, I don't buy it. I've known plenty of moral people who happen to be wealthy and plenty of people who'd stab you in the back for a buck who happen to be poor, as well as vice-versa, come up with a better argument.

[Walks with the Snails]

i would hardly call it unprovoked, but sure, i attacked you, i admit it, cause you seem to be taking alot of what you say from thin air. but.....
ok, so if im so wrong, what would stop the war? what is your solution? if the israelies don´t back of and hamaz dosn´t stop bombing, it wont stop, but what is your idea? i would like to hear your creative side on this?

Yeah, that's right, I just made it up.

And I asked you first, but why not. What would stop the war? Mainly, the Palestinians should accept a peace agreement. At this point, the main reason the Palestinians don't have a state is because of other Palestinians who expect the unreasonable merely as a starting point and think negotiation means handing out an ever escalating list of demands while promising nothing in return. I'm sorry, but starting up and intifada and launching suicide attacks because you think you can get a better deal isn't a valid negotiating tactic. You don't like every letter of it, then find a way to deal with it. The Israelis likely won't be happy with everything, either, but they demonstrated a willingness to compromise in the name of peace. As the saying goes, a good compromise is one that both sides are equally displeased with.

Link whatever info you have stated here to what page you got it from news or whatever, i can do that, can yo? i forgive you for you continiued prejudice against me.

There's an old tactic, just publish a source for everything you've said and I'll believe you. Sorry, if I wanted to take a few days of research to write a thesis on this, I'd go for a degree. My mind has gradually digested all the facts over the years. It doesn't come with footnotes. Blame the human mind.

And again charging me with prejudice. I guess you were sorry but not really when you said you were sorry about saying that before, huh. Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be prejudiced, I guess. If I made any judgments, it was solely based on what you've said, and I've been responding solely to what you've said. Even when you resort to attacking me rather than my argument, I address that in turn. That's not prejudice. That's critical thinking in action.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, that's right, I just made it up.

And I asked you first, but why not. What would stop the war? Mainly, the Palestinians should accept a peace agreement. At this point, the main reason the Palestinians don't have a state is because of other Palestinians who expect the unreasonable merely as a starting point and think negotiation means handing out an ever escalating list of demands while promising nothing in return.

if you had read the peace treatys, camp david, oslo treaty and so on, you would see that in every treaty the israelies so "willingly" gives to the palestinians, they don´t offer an independent palestinian state, the want military control, political control, but the paliestinians still get to live there, but the are not independent, did you know that the israelies controll the amount of money that the "state of palestina" gets? Yeah, i think that israel treatys are generous, think again. or hey, just read them.

I'm sorry, but starting up and intifada and launching suicide attacks because you think you can get a better deal isn't a valid negotiating tactic.

and who does that do you think, extremist wings, not regular people, don´t pile up palestinians and israelies in them and them. we are talking about the people that run this and the extremist wings that are fighting right?

You don't like every letter of it, then find a way to deal with it.

what if you don´t like any of it cause it dosn´t change anything? again, read the treatys, if you are going to argue about it.

The Israelis likely won't be happy with everything, either, but they demonstrated a willingness to compromise in the name of peace.

same as above, read the treaty.

Note: that most of the paliestinian and israeli people want peace, but leaders and extremist groups and a little mix of hate makes it kinda hard,

As the saying goes, a good compromise is one that both sides are equally displeased with.

yeah, i agree on that

There's an old tactic, just publish a source for everything you've said and I'll believe you.

never said that you would belive me, but i do think that you would get a better view.

Sorry, if I wanted to take a few days of research to write a thesis on this, I'd go for a degree.

to bad, because if you just keep saying what you think and not what you know, it kinda hurts the debate, since i have no real facts to argue with.

My mind has gradually digested all the facts over the years.

And where did you digest the facts from? Israeli righwing fox tv? The ariel sharon late show? you gotta think about where the info came from.

It doesn't come with footnotes. Blame the human mind.

Ok, the problem you have here is that everything you say is then taken from what youvé read or heard right? Then why should i belive anything you say if you cant back it upp with facts, hey, my fault perhaps in reseaching about it but you get a better view that just watching CNN or talking to your buddies.

And again charging me with prejudice. I guess you were sorry but not really when you said you were sorry about saying that before, huh.

wow, nice one, trying hard not to make it sound like a attack against me huh?

Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be prejudiced, I guess.

wohoo, look whos talking, since you seem to have no real facts on what happend, and still say that the Palestinian people are the cause of whats going on, i would actually seem as Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be a moron, I guess. but hey, maybe you cant help it.

If I made any judgments, it was solely based on what you've said,

yeah right, so all your views and jugements, are soley based on what i said, so actually, you don´t know that much about israel and palestina. your just juging what i said, don´t belive you, i think you judged palestina way before that!

Even when you resort to attacking me rather than my argument, I address that in turn.

read your posts again, you mocked me before. so don´t give me that, "eye for an eye" think, you are no victim in this debate. So don´t feel sorry for yourself.

That's not prejudice. That's critical thinking in action.

yeah, and osama bin laden has 4 pair of socks, cry me a river.



The Jews who came to Isreal, were European, they have no
special right to be there. The people who lived there ,
prior to the "Exodus" where ethnicly arab ( regardless of
their religion). Regardless of what the land was called,the
land was lived on by ethnic arabs that were driven out by
ethnic europeans. Isrealis could not trace their roots back
to the tribes of Isreal. No tribe of Isreal wandered up to
Europe. Religion does not give any one a right to a land.

Then came the "Six Day War" in 1967 a day which Jordanians
would like to forget as they were totaly embarrased.

that was a "preemptive strike" the same as pearl harbour,
a land grab if you will.

Is the entire world wrong? Is Israel right because the
bible says so?

HOW then could the Israelis POSSIBLELY be "occupiers" in
their own territory?

Territories that the original inhabitants were driven out of. Regardless of where a line on a map was, the PEOPLE who lived there were forced out. They weren't assimilated, their property was seized.

Well obviously everything that has been tried to uproot her(Israel) has failed.

The Arab world is graduating more scientists every day, Isrealstechnolgical advantage will dwindle everyday. They
need a lasting peace more than the Arab world. If they
continue on the path they are on now. They will eventually
lose.They can sit there and pound on their cheast all they
want and say you "you can't win" to the Arab world but what
about 10 years from now.


ok, my view solution:
Look at Europe, thousands of years of blood and now the European union. Who
would have even dreamed of such a thing 100 years ago.If
the Isrealis conformed with UN resolutions and international law and the Palestians "Realy" cracked down
on militants peace would be possible. The problem is peace
would not remove the humiliation put on the Palestinains or
make the Isrealis feel SAFE. Only victory will do that, a victory neither side can acheive. Neither side wants to "settle" for peace but both sides need this peace to survive!

[rambo]

and who does that do you think, extremist wings, not regular people, don´t pile up palestinians and israelies in them and them. we are talking about the people that run this and the extremist wings that are fighting right?

bullshit....reg palestinians join the the extrmist wings and yasser support them with money and we proved that!

Note: that most of the paliestinian and israeli people want peace, but leaders and extremist groups and a little mix of hate makes it kinda hard,

what if the leaders want peace and e palestinians ppl dont wanna!
and trust on that 70% of the palestinians ppl want us dead!

And where did you digest the facts from? Israeli righwing fox tv? The ariel sharon late show? you gotta think about where the info came from.

i think CNN and they dont really show what is happening to us....by CNN we are always the attackers

wohoo, look whos talking, since you seem to have no real facts on what happend, and still say that the Palestinian people are the cause of whats going on, i would actually seem as Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be a moron, I guess. but hey, maybe you cant help it.

sorry but i dont really like the ways they are using to get what they never could get...(israel+jerusalem)

Then came the "Six Day War" in 1967 a day which Jordanians
would like to forget as they were totaly embarrased.

so as egipt surria and lebanon will

Is the entire world wrong? Is Israel right because the
bible says so?
YES fathers rights!
the jewz tried to live in europe but we got a BIG CLUE that we are not wanted there so the only place for us is our old old home -israel

HOW then could the Israelis POSSIBLELY be "occupiers" in
their own territory?

do we have a choise????
(and now you will say, yes give them what they want but it is just too much)

The Arab world is graduating more scientists every day, Isrealstechnolgical advantage will dwindle everyday. They
need a lasting peace more than the Arab world. If they
continue on the path they are on now. They will eventually
lose.They can sit there and pound on their cheast all they
want and say you "you can't win" to the Arab world but what
about 10 years from now.

hmm do you listen to yourself??????
you say that we are the problem for getting peace...
if you look at that you will see that only the israelis tried to get peace treaty you wouldnt see any palestinian leader tring to get peace deal...
only ammo and firearms....

iam sorry but anyone who doesnt live in israel cant really know who is the "bad guy"
you have to feel the hate that we feel
almost every day israelies died and the world just accept that....
and keep telling us that we are the "bad guy"

but "you ppl" dont really know what is to lose family members friends and leaders
all the dead ppl you see is on tv or computer games
(now do give me personal storis about your grema)
and what do you thing our army does that we dont know???ha???
you know nothing! IDF keep losing ppl just to minize the cavilians death
and we are always getting spank when we faild doing that....

so know this!
you dont really know what is going on till you be in my shoes (size 42)

now lets end this thread

israelis are bad and evil and kiddz killers
the palestinians are peace loving that couldnt hit a fly....

[Phoenix]

and who does that do you think, extremist wings, not regular people, don´t pile up palestinians and israelies in them and them. we are talking about the people that run this and the extremist wings that are fighting right?

bullshit....reg palestinians join the the extrmist wngs and yasser support them with money and we proved that!

*sighs* yes rambo, normal palestinians join the extremist wings just like normal israelies join rightwing groups. You cant call all of the palestinians for terrorists and all israelises for rightwinngers now can you? If yassir is sponsoring them then why is he aresting them? money back guarranteed?

Note: that most of the paliestinian and israeli people want peace, but leaders and extremist groups and a little mix of hate makes it kinda hard,

what if the leaders want peace and e palestinians ppl dont wanna!
and trust on that 70% of the palestinians ppl want us dead!

And thats the attitude you have to change right? you cant keep on hating eachother, israelies hate palestinians as well on alot of cases, belive me they want peace just as bad as you do. (exclude rightwing israelies and hamaz from that)

And where did you digest the facts from? Israeli righwing fox tv? The ariel sharon late show? you gotta think about where the info came from.

i think CNN and they dont really show what is happening to us....by CNN we are always the attackers

what you see on cnn is 5 minutes of images and what the reporter has seen. read about it from both sides, isrealie, paliestinian objective news, and you will get the better picture. both side are bad, the media at home shows both, but right now, mostly israeli attacks.

wohoo, look whos talking, since you seem to have no real facts on what happend, and still say that the Palestinian people are the cause of whats going on, i would actually seem as Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be a moron, I guess. but hey, maybe you cant help it.

sorry but i dont really like the ways they are using to get what they never could get...(israel+jerusalem)

it was theirs wasn´t it? what ways? read my post about it.

Is the entire world wrong? Is Israel right because the
bible says so?
YES fathers rights!
the jewz tried to live in europe but we got a BIG CLUE that we are not wanted there so the only place for us is our old old home -israel

and if you kick the people that lived there for 3000 years after, you are not at all confused about why the do not like it?

HOW then could the Israelis POSSIBLELY be "occupiers" in
their own territory?

do we have a choise????
(and now you will say, yes give them what they want but it is just too much) [/quote]

to much of what? you are welthy, you are tectically advanced, you get support from the us, you took thier land, of course they want it back, altleast so that they can live in their own homes instead of refugee camps.

The Arab world is graduating more scientists every day, Isrealstechnolgical advantage will dwindle everyday. They
need a lasting peace more than the Arab world. If they
continue on the path they are on now. They will eventually
lose.They can sit there and pound on their cheast all they
want and say you "you can't win" to the Arab world but what
about 10 years from now.

hmm do you listen do yourself??????
you say that we are the problem for getting peace...
if you look at that you will see that only the israelis tried to get peace treaty you wouldnt see any palestinian leader tring to get peace deal...
only ammo and firearms....

very mature, but yes, for the arab countries and palestinia you are the problem for peace, but you do not have to be destroyed to get it, there are better ways. And how btw are you going to understand the palestinians situation if the only thing you see is terrorist that are out to kill you? its that kind of attitude that has to stop, otherwise this will continiue, btw, do you know any palestinans?

[rambo]

, do you know any palestinans?

yes i know a few
they are really nice ppl

and even more my mom is a doc...and she gets alot of palestinians kids who has heart problems and need help
and she even got the "barguti" cosen...

and barguti is the "tanzim" leader (terror org)

[Phoenix]

iam sorry but anyone who doesnt live in israel cant really know who is the "bad guy"
you have to feel the hate that we feel
almost every day israelies died and the world just accept that....
and keep telling us that we are the "bad guy"

yes and that hate from you and the palestinians must stop. if there is to be peace.

but "you ppl" dont really know what is to lose family members friends "

well actaully i do, and so does alot of people here in the forum i think, i hope you where refering to people killed in israel, and yes thats very sad, and yes, palestinians family members and friends die to, and 3 times more of them, and yes, its very sad, on both sides. It sucks to lose friends and family, i know the feeling.

and leaders
all the dead ppl you see is on tv or computer games
(now do give me personal storis about your grema)
and what do you thing our army does that we dont know???ha???
you know nothing! IDF keep losing ppl just to minize the cavilians death
and we are always getting spank when we faild doing that....

ok???

now lets end this thread "

if this tread offends you then we can close it, but if you want to continiue the debate, say so. I respect if you are offenden by this thread. We can just change the subject.

israelis are bad and evil and kiddz killers
the palestinians are peace loving that couldnt hit a fly....

that was totally uncalled for.... :x

[Walks with the Snails]

if you had read the peace treatys, camp david, oslo treaty and so on, you would see that in every treaty the israelies so "willingly" gives to the palestinians, they don´t offer an independent palestinian state, the want military control, political control, but the paliestinians still get to live there, but the are not independent, did you know that the israelies controll the amount of money that the "state of palestina" gets? Yeah, i think that israel treatys are generous, think again. or hey, just read them.

Hmm, you mean the same Oslo accord that starts off with:

1. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:


September 9, 1993


Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the
history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to
confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace
and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a
peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares
that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be
resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles
constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful
coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace
and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and
other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO
elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent
violations and discipline violators

In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration
of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council
Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the
Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the
provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments
of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently,
the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for
formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian
Covenant.


Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization

Yeah, I've seen it. Hmm, they trusted the guy before and look where it got them. Would you be bending over backwards to do it all over again?

I'm sorry, but starting up and intifada and launching suicide attacks because you think you can get a better deal isn't a valid negotiating tactic.

and who does that do you think, extremist wings, not regular people, don´t pile up palestinians and israelies in them and them. we are talking about the people that run this and the extremist wings that are fighting right?

As a matter of fact, I think Arafat has no small hand in it. And he's the one who always winds up at the negotiating table. So what I said stands. If the "regular people" want things to change, then they should let their voices be heard.

The Israelis likely won't be happy with everything, either, but they demonstrated a willingness to compromise in the name of peace.

same as above, read the treaty.

Note: that most of the paliestinian and israeli people want peace, but leaders and extremist groups and a little mix of hate makes it kinda hard,

Yeah, that sounds sweet, but how are you going to practically apply it even assuming you're right. What's your solution?

Sorry, if I wanted to take a few days of research to write a thesis on this, I'd go for a degree.

to bad, because if you just keep saying what you think and not what you know, it kinda hurts the debate, since i have no real facts to argue with.

I know the feeling.

My mind has gradually digested all the facts over the years.

And where did you digest the facts from? Israeli righwing fox tv? The ariel sharon late show? you gotta think about where the info came from.

It doesn't come with footnotes. Blame the human mind.

Ok, the problem you have here is that everything you say is then taken from what youvé read or heard right? Then why should i belive anything you say if you cant back it upp with facts, hey, my fault perhaps in reseaching about it but you get a better view that just watching CNN or talking to your buddies.

I get my information from many sources as well as from participating and watching debates on forums like this. Where did you get your information, Hamas and Hezbollah press releases? (joking, even though I don't know if you were)

And "Everything you say is then taken from what you've read or heard"??? Where did you get your information, divine revelation?

Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be prejudiced, I guess.

wohoo, look whos talking, since you seem to have no real facts on what happend, and still say that the Palestinian people are the cause of whats going on, i would actually seem as Everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be a moron, I guess. but hey, maybe you cant help it.

I never said that. To be honest, I didn't think that, either. You did call me prejudiced, though. That's what I was responding to. Then, to top it off, you "apologized" and then said it again. Sorry if I overreacted, but I wasn't the one who got personal first.

If I made any judgments, it was solely based on what you've said,

yeah right, so all your views and jugements, are soley based on what i said, so actually, you don´t know that much about israel and palestina. your just juging what i said, don´t belive you, i think you judged palestina way before that!

You're welcome to your opinion. I could just as easily say you judged Israel way before this, especially considering your later rant, but I won't. It really doesn't add anything to the debate.

The Jews who came to Isreal, were European, they have no
special right to be there. The people who lived there ,
prior to the "Exodus" where ethnicly arab ( regardless of
their religion). Regardless of what the land was called,the
land was lived on by ethnic arabs that were driven out by
ethnic europeans. Isrealis could not trace their roots back
to the tribes of Isreal. No tribe of Isreal wandered up to
Europe. Religion does not give any one a right to a land.

Well, that pretty much sums it up, I guess. So you don't think that the European Jews weren't descended from the original ones? And what of the "Ethnic Arabs" who happened to be Jews who stayed in the area? What of the "Ethnic Arabs" who happened to be Jews who were forced out of other Arab countries and told to move to Israel? Do they have no claim? Did Jews living in the area before Israel was established who with a lot of sweat and hard work built up the area from wasteland to oasis have no right to their work because they weren't "Ethnic Arabs"? When the land was divided according to the current inhabitants, were the current Jewish residents just supposed to be shown the door because they weren't "Ethnic Arabs"?

Then came the "Six Day War" in 1967 a day which Jordanians
would like to forget as they were totaly embarrased.

that was a "preemptive strike" the same as pearl harbour,
a land grab if you will.

Uh, huh, the armies in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon were just on training maneuvers, I guess. Comparing that to Pearl Harbor would only be equivalent if the U.S. Navy had massed in attack formation within striking distance of Japan.

Is the entire world wrong? Is Israel right because the
bible says so?

Last time I checked, "the entire world" wasn't in accord here. And quit throwing out the "Bible says so" red herring. I've never based the argument on that.

HOW then could the Israelis POSSIBLELY be "occupiers" in
their own territory?

Semantics. If they claimed it as theirs, would it now not be occupied?

Well obviously everything that has been tried to uproot her(Israel) has failed.

The Arab world is graduating more scientists every day, Isrealstechnolgical advantage will dwindle everyday. They
need a lasting peace more than the Arab world. If they
continue on the path they are on now. They will eventually
lose.They can sit there and pound on their cheast all they
want and say you "you can't win" to the Arab world but what
about 10 years from now.

Sure, so why don't they just give up everything now and get it over with. Once they're weak and vulnerable and the Arabs are in a better position, I'm sure the Arabs will just be nice guys. All you'll have to do is go tell them to respect other countries' boundaries and they'll be glad to comply. It's not like every other historical encounter with Israel and other Arab states would say otherwise.

ok, my view solution:
Look at Europe, thousands of years of blood and now the European union. Who
would have even dreamed of such a thing 100 years ago.If
the Isrealis conformed with UN resolutions and international law and the Palestians "Realy" cracked down
on militants peace would be possible. The problem is peace
would not remove the humiliation put on the Palestinains or
make the Isrealis feel SAFE. Only victory will do that, a victory neither side can acheive. Neither side wants to "settle" for peace but both sides need this peace to survive!

Sounds nice. The European Union only came about, though, because the problems of the past were by then largely irrelevant and most of the people who'd oppose it were long dead. That's not the case here. It would be more like trying to make the EU two years after the Hundred Years War.

And on the topic of UN resolutions, how many of them are demanding the Palestinians do their fair share? I guess Israel's just going to have to abide by the resolutions and trust the Palestinians to uphold their end of the bargain and crack down on the militants, right? After all, their leadership has shown an amazing ability to uphold past agreements.

[the guardian]

ah,GOD DAMN IT

i leave for a couple of days and you make tons of reply, well i CANT READ IT ALL, its too fucking long


i say we close the topic, since i cant, oviously, read it anymore

[Kashluk]

Yeah, you being able to post is all that matters

[the guardian]

glad you could see it that way :twisted:

[Kashluk]

Watch your mouth, you're dealing with the devil here

[the guardian]

:oops:


sorry mister devil


great horns by the way


*runs forward the nearest exit*[/i]

[Hammer]

Hmm another debate.............. Rambo should I jump on in?