The big choice 2d or not 2d

[Constipated BladeRunner]

A) Diablo 2 sold well because it was a blizzard game.
Okay, Morrorwind, Daggerfall, Anarchy Online or all the 3D mmorpgs.
C) Didnt I talk about a few well known often used 3D rpg engines?
D) So, DX was an FPS with stats, complex invintory, about 20 skills and the ability to role play a character? It was at the very least a FPS/RPG hybrid. The only "fps with stats" I can think of is probably JK1. A game can be FP AND an rpg, you know- look at Morrorwind.

[the guardian]

its time i reply to this topic



i miss 2d gaming

i dont know if you've noticed, but games 5-7 years ago were alot diffrent then today's games... they were adventures, they were puzzles, and yes, they were also fps

but the one think i do know about the "old" games is that they made you think, rather then trust your reflexes....

i mean come on! who prefers unreal over king quest? im not talking about those who dont know what im talking about, im talking about YOU, the gamer, who's been playing video games for more then 3 years

do you honestly prefer baldur's gate over chrono trigger? is final fantasy 8 better then final fantasy 3 because it looks cooler?

didnt lands of lore made you want to explore? didnt any of you ever played supoflex?

i mean, you got 3d action speed car racing, and yet, i get alot more kicks when i play wacky wheels!
even though carmagadon owns

its hard to explain alright? it FEELS DIFFRENT playing those games, as opposed to today's games...

i liked the puzzles, the quests, the things that made my mind WORK... do you know how much time i wasted trying to figure out the solutions to gobliins 2? CONFUSING but CHALLANGING... i dont get that much today, though there are a few fine 3d games i realy must admit, made me happy for a while alot happy...

i loved the creativity, which i hardly, but not completely dont, see today. i liked companies taking chances with new ideas, i liked the jokes(remember tyrian? i do)...

i also loved dos... do you know when i stopped using dos, and moved to windows? around '99, and thats because ive heard there's porn on the net

it was the age of 2d gaming. sure, they didnt realy have a choice, and yes, im quite sure they'd of used 3d instead, but i grew on 2d gaming, alright? its in my blood to love it

my age of gamers might be dead, but we were the golden age....LEARN from our history my friends, dont recycle, INVENT new things, make the gamers THINK again, make it a colorful epic with fairy tales... sure, i liked the remakes(secret of mana 3 for instance, or chrono cross), but give me new things! give me... creativity in your games, i want to see the companies take a long shot, that add some diversity to the recycled shit

just like they did back then

how do you think warcraft came to life? doom?(well castle wolferstien acully), heroes of mind and magic, or even the quest for glory? the companies tried something new...

it can be done, and it should be done



my, i kind of went into ranting rather then 2d talking, didnt i? well thats ok, its quality ranting

to sum it up: i like 2d games better

[MF]

Morrowind and Daggerfall fall into a seperate category : Freelance RPGs.
I like them. Many Fallout players don't.

As for Anarchy online and MMORPGs..WHAT THE FUCK do they have to do with Morrowind or Daggerfall? Or in case you're just unable to form coherent sentences, what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?

[Crow of Ill Omen]

Guardian, I agree with much of what you're saying, but don't think it has anything to do with 2D or 3D.

Back then, I was easier to please. Back then, there were fewer games releases and I bought fewer games (causing me to put more effort into the ones I bought). Back then, yes, games were better but not visually.

For example, one of the few driving games I truly liked was Quarantine (1994). However, if the game had had GTA3 graphics, I'd have enjoyed it even more. Mind you, if they'd have changed the soundtrack even a little, I'd have ripped out my virtual car stereo.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

They prove that RPGS (in this case MMO) can be good 3D

[Megatron]

Yeah 2d games are good. I liked Rampage, commander keen and had a bunch of demos of other games (top-scrolling space shooters, racing games and other stuff where you have to collect magical items and shit)

I also like 3d games. I dont give a fuck what it looks like, so long as I can see whats happening. gameplay matters more to me than anything. I dont care if its a 3d fireworks display or a 2d..thingy.

[Saint_Proverbius]

"Of course, none of us have talked about ANOTHER possibility: 2.5D. You know what I mean - 2D/prerendered backgrounds, 3D characters."

Do you mean something similar to the Inifinity engine likee in Badlurs Gate and all its love children -Ice wind dale, 1 haert of winter, IWD 2, Baldurs gate tales of sword coast, Baldurs gate 2 and phew Baldurs Gaate 2 throne of Bhaal

All the Infinity Engine games are purely 2D. The landscape is pre-rendered as as the sprites. Some of the newer versions do use 3D cards for the effects they can produce though. Diablo 2 did this as well.

a) I believe a huge number of people play Diablo II in 2D mode (to boost frame rate), although I realise this doesn't necessarily make it a 2D game. I believe we could class Diablo II sales as adequate.

Diablo 2 is a 2D game. The tiles and sprites are all prerendered. The "3D mode" is just for the effects that a 3D card can do in hardware.

[Doyle]

I want 2d purely because they then wont spend all the plot/story development time on ubér leet graphics and give us a boring, staid, and repetitive game.

They're probably going to make a new engine anyway. Either way, they're going to be spending time on graphics, so using a 3D engine won't really take much more time.

Yeah.
It just happens to be called System Shock, Daggerfall, Deus Ex, SS2, do you REALLY want me to continue?
Notice to noob- think about 3D rpgs BEFORE you needlesly flame the future, let alone the only way that RPG's will stand a chance against the on slot of the Sims clones/ FPSes.

CBR, I'm honestly still not sure whether you're an idiot or whether you simply act like one. If I had to judge from this post, I'd go with the former, though.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Most of the time I am acting, though I consider DX a hybrid.
Also, I do think that 3D is a good idea simpley to boost sales.
And Diablo 2 sold well dispite being in 2d, not because.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

Perhaps you can explain to me what evidence you have and how you are reading it. From this angle, particularly after what Saint_Proverbius just said, it seems if you were to put all the high selling RPG games of the last few years in a hat and pick out a name, you'd be most likely to get one built with a 2D graphics engine. Of course, it'd have to be a 3D hat ...

[the guardian]

funny thing about diablo... i prefered the first one over the second....

diablo 2 sold well because it was diablo 1's succesor(or obsessor, or seXXor, god i hate english).... its called sequels, and since everbody loved diablo 1, every would love diablo 2 as well, especialy if we promise flashier graphics with the same game format

how can you call diablo 2 a 2d game btw? isomeric yeah, but its not realy a 2d game...

about 3d

3d is something i usualy deslike. however, im well aware of the fact that as time progresses, new technology appears... 3d graphics are much more prettier and realistic then 2d games, but it lacks something... im a pixel man, kinda hard to explain

but lets face it, shall we? there's no use trying to hope that companies will use their old technology for games. we're more advanced now(pop up zim quote!), we cant realy ignore that fact, now, we can do things the people back then couldnt do, and probably wanted to do(im sure that given the option, most companies would prefer 3d over 2d, its eye candy)


god damn progress

but thats the problem! most companies would rather make their game look great then acully work on the plot! the fucking story! the reason im playing the game...

its the eternal fight between the 2 titans: graphics make them want to buy the game, but a good story makes you LOVE THE GAME... its a better investement- it assures that the people would buy the next game... in short, concetrate on graphics, and you're assuring a quick amount of money to drop into your pocket, but concetrate on the acual game, the plot, the story, the dialogs... and you're buying people

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Saintie P, once again raises an excellent point- both infinity and the Daiblow engines are purley 2D (save some spell animations), but both of them came out some time ago, and not only that, but every major PCRPG that has been released this year has been 3D (plese correct if mistaken), and most of them have sold quite well.
Morrorwind-was 3D and is selling well
NWN-3D and is selling spectacularly
DS- Selling.
Also, 3D is already completly spread through a the largest sub-genre of RPGies- MMO.
Anyway, almost every major developer has openly stated that everything is going to be in 3D- BioWare and Blizzard, for instance.

[Doyle]

Diablo 2 is 2D with a few 3D effects. Remove those effects, and you have only 2D. That's why it's a 2D game.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

It came out two years ago.
It was popular two years ago.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Morrorwind-was 3D and is selling well

With complaints about slow downs and high system requirements. However, Morrowind needs to be 3D just because of it's design.

NWN-3D and is selling spectacularly

With complaints about how ugly it is compared to the Infinity Engine. Not to mention that Aurora is pretty shitty as far as an RPG engine is concerned simply because of how it stores save games and doesn't allow quest information to traverse acts.

DS- Selling.

Probably one of those "OMG! LOOK AT THIS GAME! ITS KEWL!" deals for two weeks, then the thrill runs out because there's not much game to it.

Dungeon Siege is really a prime example of how more time was spent on the engine rather than the game itself.

Also, 3D is already completly spread through a the largest sub-genre of RPGies- MMO.

Which are another prime example of flash over substance.

Anyway, almost every major developer has openly stated that everything is going to be in 3D- BioWare and Blizzard, for instance.

Neither of which has made a good RPG.

[DarkUnderlord]

From what I understand, Troika's next two projects are going to be 3d. No idea if they're RPGs or what though.

I also thought that they had to go 3d now too. The amount of 2d art and animations that you start pushing around gets too high¹.


¹That's just something I read somewhere. No idea where I read it. I could be making it up. Most likely I am. I don't even really know what it means.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Troika's next projects:

1.) Traditional fantasy RPG that's turn based.
2.) Sci-fi RPG that's real time.

[MF]

Somehow I have more faith in Troika's projects, regardless of what mechanic they use.
The fact that they make a traditional fantasy RPG with turn based is getting unique. I like turn based.
And a Sci-Fi RPG in Real-time? They might pull it off.

That is a case of not being afraid to go in different directions.
BIS is not 'going to real-time' with an alleged Fallout 3 to be different, but rather to hold on to their Infinity Engine tradition, built up in a few years but etched firmly in their minds as the only way to go. It's a deep, deep hole they can't get out of.

And yes, eventually 3D is inevitable. Arcanum had an incredible amount of data in all the tiles and sprites. But there was a lot of detail they won't be able to get with 3D for at least a couple of years.

As long as the gameplay is solid and fun though, I don't really care.

And Diablo 2 is a very, very 2D game. If you're stupid enough to think it's 3D just because there's a '3D mode' option in the menu that does nothing but create some weird parallax effect on the tiles and use your 3D hardware for flashy light-effects, you're a moron.

[VasikkA]

Diablo 2 fakes the '3D' but the core is still 2D.

NWN engine has some problems, true, but it still shows how 3D engines have progressed recently. Compared to DS it looks a lot better. Textures are nice and detailed though, not really as in Infinity engine, but 3D engines are getting closer that level. The editor and tools are versatile, that's a plus.

Dungeon Siege was really nothing more than the engine itself. Nice 3D effects and environments but there was really nothing in it. In fact, I find it interesting why it's labeled as an RPG, which it's not. On the other hand, same thing with Diablo.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

MF I was uninformed enough not to know it was a 2D game engine until S_P told me. If you think not having such a piece of technical information equates to stupidity, or is only the province of morons, you are incorrect. I assume at some point in your life, YOU learned how to tell the difference between a 2D engine with 3D effects and a 3D engine. Were you a moron prior to that?

CBR, Diablo2:LOD also sold well and came out only months before PoR2:LoMD. More importantly, both the main game and the expansion pack have sold comparatively well ever since release.

Neverwinter Nights is selling spectacularly. I do not believe this is directly linked to being 3D being considered cool. The game has been wanted for years, it fills a need that has been desired since the advent of the home computer (ability for RPG players to create their own adventures on the computer), and addresses longing that arose with the Internet (online RPG play).

The use of 3D mainly contributed (if I understand the technical aspect of the situation) by making it easier for players and other third-parties to produce their own visual elements, such as tilesets and models. I'm not very sure about this point, since I'm not certain 3D tilesets are easier (maybe S_P could clear this up).