MCA on the Fallout editors

Constipated BladeRunner · Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:21 am

So, because because Q2 Has editing tools, there will be no sequel?
Or DX?
Or UT?

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:25 am

That's a different company and different kind of game entirely. Now if Quake was owned by FOX Interactive.....

Constipated BladeRunner · Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:27 am

I have no idea what you are talking about.
However, I am going to assume that some one with such a bad avatar is an idiot, and that your ideas do not mean didley-squat.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:34 am

Constipated Moron, have you been cutting your bleach with dog shit again?

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:34 am

There's no reason to be an asshole. Try spending a couple years studying the companies and the evolution of the business. A few of the people around here understand what's going on and have seen the largest producers take over. Killian's Kiddie Pools may seem like a joke, but he comes about as close to the truth as anybody I've seen on any gaming website. The idea of releasing the editors is nothing more than further manipulating with the fanbase. FOX Interactive did it with Aliens vs. Predator, a dead game, and are doing it again with the sequel's much needed source code. Many other major companies follow the same trend.

So pull you god damn head out of your fucking ass and shut the fuck up, kid.

Constipated BladeRunner · Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:42 am

Yes, but can it not also be viewd as trying to draw attention back on to FO?
I mean, I see your point with the AvPs, but in both situations, they came out within a year.
FO2 has been around for Five.
Go figure!

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:26 am

Constipated BladeRunner wrote:I have not yet bought IWD2, so I dont know what you are talking about, but MCA did not do it. However, considering that IWD2 got overwhelmingly positive reviews, it could not be that bad.

MCA is the lead designer on IWD2. As far as the reviews being positive, a lot of them have mentioned that maze as being exetrmely annoying. Even GameSpy, who normally sucks up to developers as much as possible, even brought up that maze:

Aside from the relentless combat, there are a few puzzles and one highly annoying forest maze that will test the nerve of even the most hardened role-playing fan. Mazes are no fun. They weren't fun in The Bard's Tale and they aren't fun today -- especially when it takes hours of trial and error to figure out where to go. Throwing in a maze or a nasty puzzle is fine, but at least give the player a chance to avoid it or solve it instead of wasting time figuring it out as you go.

Link: http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/august02 ... dex2.shtml

You can browse through the IWD2 forum for the other things I mentioned. IWD2 has a lot of design flaws, and MCA is the man who headed up that design. Be I will post this:

A typical day during IWD2's development...

MCA: "Okay guys, we need to come up with something that happens when a player kills a town person in IWD2. I suggest we have it break the game in such a manner that play can't continue."

Puuk: "Sounds like good role playing to me!"

MCA: "Then it's settled."

Now, if you want to bring up PS:T, it's basically an AD&D RPG with elements borrowed from Fallout. It was also seriously linear to boot, which I mention because you said that about IWD2 as if PS:T wasn't.

Red · Post by **Red** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:38 am

OMG I have to, like, USE my BRAIN to REMEMBER stuff where I WENT

THE STRAIN... MAKE IT STOP PLEASE!

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 11:50 am

Red wrote:OMG I have to, like, USE my BRAIN to REMEMBER stuff where I WENT

THE STRAIN... MAKE IT STOP PLEASE!

Tell me you don't find mazes annoying. I know I do. I hated the electro-maze in FO2, that's for sure.

Enclave Trooper 1: Hey Bob, you ready for work?

Enclave Trooper 2: Fuck no! I'm all out of Superstims!

If you're going to throw puzzles in a game, that's fine. Great, even. However, mazes are for lab rats. There's no real challenge to them since all you need to do is draw a map. Even the maze/teleporter combination in Pool of Radiance wasn't really that hard. It did take some time, however. Time that would have been better spent on something other than having a pack of 6 lab rats run around looking for a sorceror and slaughtering the occassional wandering monster.

OTB

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:29 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:
Tell me you don't find mazes annoying. I know I do. I hated the electro-maze in FO2, that's for sure.

I have a sneaky suspicion whose brain-turd that one was, now...

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 4:27 pm

Red wrote:OMG I have to, like, USE my BRAIN to REMEMBER stuff where I WENT

THE STRAIN... MAKE IT STOP PLEASE!

Red, this maze is annoying because it's basically "random exit". In other words, you may go north, but not end up in a place that's logically north. There's a pattern to it, but it's not a typical maze.

It's also pretty large too. You have to pretty much either use the wilderness lore skill assuming you have someone with that, or you have to use the note ability on the map to tell yourself where you've been and where the exits lead - which is why I said the maze is highly annoying.

But hey, even if it was a typical hedge maze type deal, it's still going to be as annoying a fuck just because of the Infinity Engine's pathfinding.

Also, from what Fenrick was telling me earlier, beyond that maze area, the game goes downhill fast because they use gobs and gobs of spawning triggers. In the case I was told about, you can use a thief to stealthfully scout a cave which has five creatures in it.

Well, once you bring in your guys to attack those creatures, more creatures spawn in there... DOZENS more. In other words, using thieves for what thieves should be good at, dungeon scouting, just doesn't work in this game because the designers decided to use Doom style tricks on the player in abundance.

Some of these triggers, BTW, are even set off by the hidden and stealth thief. Things like monsters crashing through walls even though the thief should be undetectable by creatures in visible view of him. Go figure.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:06 pm

Saint_Proverbius wrote: But hey, even if it was a typical hedge maze type deal, it's still going to be as annoying a fuck just because of the Infinity Engine's pathfinding.

Which is utter shit compared to a $25 dollar SHAREWARE game, Geneforge.

Also, from what Fenrick was telling me earlier, beyond that maze area, the game goes downhill fast because they use gobs and gobs of spawning triggers. In the case I was told about, you can use a thief to stealthfully scout a cave which has five creatures in it.

Well, once you bring in your guys to attack those creatures, more creatures spawn in there... DOZENS more. In other words, using thieves for what thieves should be good at, dungeon scouting, just doesn't work in this game because the designers decided to use Doom style tricks on the player in abundance.

Some of these triggers, BTW, are even set off by the hidden and stealth thief. Things like monsters crashing through walls even though the thief should be undetectable by creatures in visible view of him. Go figure.

Yes, absolute shit game designs. Way to go, morons, by removing the intended purpose of the character class and using lame design tricks.

Why am I still surprised by each new dumb trick BIS pulls off? I should have been jaded and expecting at every turn by now. What a sour note for the Inbred Engine to go out on...that's assuming it was any good to begin with.

Red · Post by **Red** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:31 pm

Um, well, at least there were 3 ways to get through the maze in FO2, and even if you didn't disable the thing it was still failrly easy to get through it randomly (I know I never figre out the order properly yet never spend more then 2 minutes in it)...

Well, I fugyred the mazes weren't reminescent of the old Sierra games... Guess I was wrong about that...

Flamescreen · Post by **Flamescreen** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 7:40 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:
I'm going to release the sprite collection as soon as it's done. All items, regardless of whether or not I'm going to use them, since I think that the FoT mod'ing community as a whole will benefit from these sprites.

OTB

Well,
A) this is gonna be a lot of work(and a pain)

The FoT community will be gratefull.

I'm hoping ED the monkey will go very well with his project so we will be able to use some of these metal armors.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:34 pm

Rosh wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion whose bran-turd that one was, now...

Er..."bran-turd" or "brain-turd"? (Either works.

)

I don't know who it was, but I'll say that I was livid when I found that place. I wanted to have the designer(s) responsible for that place in front of me so that I could wrap my fingers around their throat(s) and throttle the life out of them, just for sitting in some dark corner of an air conditioned building and coming up with things to get people to needlessly pull their hair out, all while shovelling junk food down their throats. (Turning the game off just wasn't an option at that point.)

Seriously, I understand using terrain to funnel a player or force them to take a different path while negotiating a map. The cargo hold of the Tanker was a great example of this, where you had boxes, forklifts, etc. stacked up to block what was otherwise passable terrain and force the player to either combat or to somehow avoid the horde of Aliens, Floaters and Centaurs that the vagrants had holed up in the place. That map worked. Having me run around trying to figure out a switch combination while jerking from constant electrical shocks didn't work for a FO map. Maybe a Doom map, but not one for FO.

This is why I'm deathly opposed to adding jumping to FO3 or FoT2. Give the designers that option and before you know it you'll be jumping from the tops of pillars to reach out-of-the-way switches like some spastic console munchkin. No thanks. Not in the FO universe.

Flamescreen wrote: The FoT community will be gratefull.

How grateful? Are we talking money or hookers here? :mrgreen:

OTB

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 11:00 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:
Rosh wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion whose bran-turd that one was, now...
Er..."bran-turd" or "brain-turd"? (Either works. )

Good point...edited and changed.

Jumping puzzles and action game switches should be used in GREAT reserve, if at all. Random mazes or something close to it are another design taboo. In the Inbred Engine, it's only worse with the shitty pathfinding and AI that was written 15 years ago.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 3:06 am

OnTheBounce wrote:Having me run around trying to figure out a switch combination while jerking from constant electrical shocks didn't work for a FO map. Maybe a Doom map, but not one for FO.

Have you ever seen Galaxy Quest? The Electric Floor Door Maze can be summed up by the Choppers scene in that movie.

Honestly, who the hell would put one of those there to get to and from barracks? Shouldn't the barracks be enough of a security measure?

This is why I'm deathly opposed to adding jumping to FO3 or FoT2. Give the designers that option and before you know it you'll be jumping from the tops of pillars to reach out-of-the-way switches like some spastic console munchkin. No thanks. Not in the FO universe.

I agree. Jumping would be acceptable if they didn't do that. However, knowing BIS..

"Let's put in jumping. Imagine what you could do with that?"

"Jump puzzles!"

"YEAH!"

That would be horrible.

Rat Keeng · Post by **Rat Keeng** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:17 am

Oooh, jumping puzzles. Challenge being pressing the jump button at just the right time when you reach the ledge. Ph0n!

I think the Electric Floor Maze in FO2 was misplaced, and somewhat pointless. I never really understood why it was there in the first place, it's an odd thing to place so deep inside your base. And being a diplomat with few hit points and not knowing the right combination, that's a bitch, pretty much trial and error and a bundle of stimpacks.

I've only had to deal with it a few times anyway, as i rarely get that far when i play FO2.

Red · Post by **Red** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:55 am

Heh, yeah... I always play up to SF/Navaro and think "Oh well, only the enclave laft - that place with the stupid maze" and never actually bother continuing the game...

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 5:07 am

Perhaps the rubber boots could have been used there...(Anyone tried it?)

Does anyone remember rambo 3 on commodre 64? That was a pretty....weird game. You could sneak around and stuff, but you came to an electric door and had to use rubber gloves. Never could find those damn rubbers...