The Philosophy of Mapping

[Viktor]

I seperated these posts from the "Targetable Deathclaw Eggs" thread since they were completely irrelevant, but had turned into an interesting discussion on the principles of mapping.

Cheers,

OTB

I'd be pleased to see a map that forced players to use full stealth tactics to complete the mission. I appreciated how "The Refinery" allowed the player the option of a stealthly infiltration of the refinery without the usual war of attrition forced by the core missions.

Is there a stealthy and non-lethal weapon available to allow a capture/kidnap mission where the squad can't kill the target or any surrounding "enemy" troops as they might be potential future allies??

The Sybex FO:T strategy guide lists a "Spasm Neuro Disruptor" in the energy weapons section:-

"Damage: 10-24; Range: 30; Ammo: 10 x Small Energy Cell;
Min ST: 4; Weight: 6 lbs; Action Points: 4

Comments: The Spasm Neuro Disruptor qaulifies as an SMG. Attacking the target's synapses, it temporarily lowers PE and AG, causing enemies to be stunned. Of course, this weapon is more effective against living organisms than mechanical opposition."

NOW, that sounds just the job for a no-kill stealth kidnap/heist mission, but I haven't seen it in 3 complete runs through the core game!! What happened to it??

[OnTheBounce]

I'd be pleased to see a map that forced players to use full stealth tactics to complete the mission. I appreciated how "The Refinery" allowed the player the option of a stealthly infiltration of the refinery without the usual war of attrition forced by the core missions.

Thanks, Viktor. Someone actually bitched about that...

Is there a stealthy and non-lethal weapon available to allow a capture/kidnap mission where the squad can't kill the target or any surrounding "enemy" troops as they might be potential future allies??

There were some funky work-arounds that we tossed around for a bit. None of them yield an honest-to-goodness weapon that you can simply run around and use, though. They rely heavily on scripting to accomplish what they do.

The Sybex FO:T strategy guide lists a "Spasm Neuro Disruptor" in the energy weapons section:-

"Damage: 10-24; Range: 30; Ammo: 10 x Small Energy Cell;
Min ST: 4; Weight: 6 lbs; Action Points: 4

Comments: The Spasm Neuro Disruptor qaulifies as an SMG. Attacking the target's synapses, it temporarily lowers PE and AG, causing enemies to be stunned. Of course, this weapon is more effective against living organisms than mechanical opposition."

NOW, that sounds just the job for a no-kill stealth kidnap/heist mission, but I haven't seen it in 3 complete runs through the core game!! What happened to it??

That weapon is in the game, however, it is a MP-only weapon. It basically acts as a Flash Grenade w/a higher AP cost, but does a little more damage. Another similar weapon is the Pacification Bot's main weapon. It won't knock an enemy out, but it's handy for weakening enemies/reducing their effectiveness while someone else kills them.

OTB

[Viktor]

Thanks, Viktor. Someone actually bitched about that...

Probably because the core missions teach you that getting a gauss minigun and PA beats using small unit tactics and stealth every time... Especially as most mission are "search and destroy" ops.

That weapon is in the game, however, it is a MP-only weapon. It basically acts as a Flash Grenade w/a higher AP cost, but does a little more damage. Another similar weapon is the Pacification Bot's main weapon. It won't knock an enemy out, but it's handy for weakening enemies/reducing their effectiveness while someone else kills them.

OTB

There's goes my "get a live prisoner/snatch the scientist" mission... I hope MCA's getting all this good stuff if his recent request for FO:T feedback was just BS...

[OnTheBounce]

Especially as most missions [in the core campaign] are "search and destroy" ops.

I admit that most of the missions in IOOI are just that, although I try to put a twist on them and/or interesting side quests. (Don't worry, you'll find yourself on the defensive more than once, though. )

There's goes my "get a live prisoner/snatch the scientist" mission...

Not really, Viktor. Remember the Slip 'im a Mickey! thread? If not check it out again and you'll see that there are ways to do it, although they can be messy.

I hope MCA's getting all this good stuff if his recent request for FO:T feedback was just BS...

I wonder if playing 3rd Party material for FoT violates his proscription against "fan-generated material". It would seem that it would, but some of the SP missions really showcase what we liked/wanted in FoT...

BTW, if you're looking for a heavily stealth-driven mission, check out Max's Deathclaw Desert. Chapter 4 is a stealth mission that actually penalizes you for killing..."stuff", IIRC. (Consider youself plugged, Max. )

OTB

[Max-Violence]

Thanks!

Who was it that bitched about the stealthy gameplay in yer demo?

[OnTheBounce]

Thanks!

Who was it that bitched about the stealthy gameplay in yer demo?

NP, Max.

BBM said that the stealthy route was too easy. I'm taking a small step to make it a little more difficult, but I definitely wouldn't get rid of it. (In fact, in pretty much every mission I design there is either a stealthy way to win the mission, or to allow you to get an advantage on an otherwise extremely difficult portion of the mission.)

OTB

[Viktor]

BBM said that the stealthy route was too easy. I'm taking a small step to make it a little more difficult, but I definitely wouldn't get rid of it. (In fact, in pretty much every mission I design there is either a stealthy way to win the mission, or to allow you to get an advantage on an otherwise extremely difficult portion of the mission.)

OTB

Unguarded routes shoud have a very good reason while the town's/base's occupiers feel they don't need to guard them.... Well hidden mines, very nasty toxic spills, rad levels that need full use of Rax-X and Rad-Away to keep the troops alive or a nest of particularly vicious critters would make ideal ways to make quiet back alleys or tunnels very deniable without posting armed guards.

I do really appreciate having an alternative to a frontal assault, but I don't think you should get a "free ride" into the objective just because one of your squad spots a trap door in the ruins etc.....

[OnTheBounce]

I do really appreciate having an alternative to a frontal assault, but I don't think you should get a "free ride" into the objective just because one of your squad spots a trap door in the ruins etc.....

Right, I agree. Note that the "secret entrance" into the the main compound in The Refinery requires the use of not one, but two non-combat skills (Science and Lockpick). If that had been part of a campaign and the player was one of those "Science is for nerds!" types he wouldn't have had the option to go that route. (Note also that not having a competent technocrat along wouldn't have denied the player the ability to "win" the mission, but you can't get the highest level of victory w/o a decent Science skill, or Lockpick for that matter.) Basically, it's a route that the Slavers aren't expecting anyone to come through because it isn't exactly very accessible.

There are indeed many, many ways that you can use to either cloak or disuade the use of a "secret entrance". I think that occasionally simply using tilework to make something hard to spot is acceptable. I don't, however, think that it should be used very often, though.

OTB

[Forty-six & Two]

Stealth tactics is great, but it is true that they are very easy in SP maps. Like in the refinery, having Anna with high science and lockpick from the start makes it easy. But if it had been a campaign it would only have been easy for the ones who think about those things instead of having all combat squaddies. So having such an easy way out as The Refinery should be reserved for campaign maps or at least be abit harder... like, to lockpick a door you need to find a electronic lockpick. Or the character that has the skill needed is an NPC you meet/free somewhere in the map.

[OnTheBounce]

...But if it had been a campaign it would only have been easy for the ones who think about those things instead of having all combat squaddies. So having such an easy way out as The Refinery should be reserved for campaign maps or at least be abit harder...

I see what you're saying, and I agree. That's one of the pitfalls of what I was trying to do; namely, to show the player what IOOI is like. In doing that I had to forego a lot of SP map conventions.

...[T]o lockpick a door you need to find a electronic lockpick. Or the character that has the skill needed is an NPC you meet/free somewhere in the map.

Unfortunately Electronic Lockpicks don't work correctly in the game. There is an option to tag doors as "Electronic" as well as the Lockpicks themselves, but it wasn't actually enabled. So it looks like we're stuck w/generic lockpicks.

OTB

[Viktor]

Unfortunately Electronic Lockpicks don't work correctly in the game. There is an option to tag doors as "Electronic" as well as the Lockpicks themselves, but it wasn't actually enabled. So it looks like we're stuck w/generic lockpicks.

OTB

You mean I spent my hard earned BoS script on an electronic lockpick Mk1 and Mk2 and the festering lumps of roach infested Brahmin crap don't work???

Is there anyway to make a "Super-Duper Steal-O-Matic Extended Lockpick Mk2" which gives another 10% lockpick bonus on top of what the extended set does and then set a lock/safe that must be opened to require a lockpick skill level that can't be achieved without using the new improved lockpick??

Could you then call the lock whatever type of lock you liked, for example a "Palm Scanning Lock" and set the required lock pick skill so that only the "new and improved" lockpick which could be called an "Electro-Optical Lock Buster 3000 by Morgan Industries" could open it???

This doesn't mean I want to see a return to the "You need item X to complete objective Y, which you just happen to find in a crate only 5 metres from where you need it" approach the core game used for mission critical items! I like having to talk to NPCs and explore places where the information I receive leads once in while but to have the whole game turn into a never ending "treasure hunt" like Arcanum did....

[OnTheBounce]

You mean I spent my hard earned BoS script on an electronic lockpick Mk1 and Mk2 and the festering lumps of roach infested Brahmin crap don't work???

Well, they do work, they just don't work any differently than standard Lock Picks.

Is there anyway to make a "Super-Duper Steal-O-Matic Extended Lockpick Mk2" which gives another 10% lockpick bonus on top of what the extended set does and then set a lock/safe that must be opened to require a lockpick skill level that can't be achieved without using the new improved lockpick??

What you could is to have a lock w/an insance difficulty modifier, say 600. (This means that 600 would be subtraced from your chance to pick the lock.) Then, create a new Lock Pick entity (using a sprite that you'd created for the image) that provided say a 500% bonus to your LP skill, so that you couldn't pick the lock w/o a 101+% LP skill and the lock pick that you'd made for that purpose. Of course, doing this would hand the player a kick-ass lock pick that would ruin the rest of the game. You could, however, have it available only on one map, then tick/check the "Remove on Exit" field under "Lootable" and put something in the debfrief about how the Scribes sent their thanks for having turned in such a valuable tool for them to study...

Another option would simply be to create a sprite similar to the Retinal Scanners found in Sierra Army Depot, then use them as the image for a Science Switch entity that requires a key, and have a key set up that looks like the LP in the example above. The solution to making it believable would be for it to be an obviously specialized tool specifically for defeating a specialized type of lock. (You could also simply use a normal Switch entity is you didn't want to require the use of a the Science skill.)

Could you then call the lock whatever type of lock you liked, for example a "Palm Scanning Lock" and set the required lock pick skill so that only the "new and improved" lockpick which could be called an "Electro-Optical Lock Buster 3000 by Morgan Industries" could open it???

See above. W/the sprite creation capabilities we have now and simple editing of text files in the game I'd say that the sky's the limit in this respect.

OTB

[Viktor]

What you could is to have a lock w/an insance difficulty modifier, say 600. (This means that 600 would be subtraced from your chance to pick the lock.) Then, create a new Lock Pick entity (using a sprite that you'd created for the image) that provided say a 500% bonus to your LP skill, so that you couldn't pick the lock w/o a 101+% LP skill and the lock pick that you'd made for that purpose. Of course, doing this would hand the player a kick-ass lock pick that would ruin the rest of the game. You could, however, have it available only on one map, then tick/check the "Remove on Exit" field under "Lootable" and put something in the debfrief about how the Scribes sent their thanks for having turned in such a valuable tool for them to study...

Works for me! Effective and believable!

Another option would simply be to create a sprite similar to the Retinal Scanners found in Sierra Army Depot, then use them as the image for a Science Switch entity that requires a key, and have a key set up that looks like the LP in the example above. The solution to making it believable would be for it to be an obviously specialized tool specifically for defeating a specialized type of lock. (You could also simply use a normal Switch entity is you didn't want to require the use of a the Science skill.)

That's another damn good idea I'd like to see in a map....

See above. W/the sprite creation capabilities we have now and simple editing of text files in the game I'd say that the sky's the limit in this respect.

Well, I think I'm going to while away many a happy hour playing you guy's custom missions over the 6 months!!

I've just downloaded JJ's "Quartz" map and will be playing that one after I've finally finished "The Refinery V1.0".

[Flamescreen]

Personally i don't think that having "too easy routes" in a map is that bad. It's just that people forget we're only doing this in our free time ans strictly as a hobby so we don't expect to get paid for it, still we've managed to outdo the professionals in many ways.

All in all, there will be mistakes in maps and everything we attempt to do(be it sprites, tiles or whatever), but we're still here and will improve. I believe that for someone to see faults in something is just a challenge to go home and make something better, so i'm eagerly expecting maps from guys who expressed concern! :twisted:

Lastly just think of it: MapMakers have to try to balance player styles and even the pro's didn't even deal with it, so we're quite challenged, but will do a great job(already almost there most of us)I do believe that. You have three playing styles and all the player styles almost impossible to have everyone happy(to tell the truth I would really like everyone to have real easy to beat maps so I had more time to make mine, so...Still I loved Endocore's. Max-V's and OTB's map(s))

[Judge Iceberg]

I would agree with you that the maps I have downloaded from various places show some superiority over those in the original game. Both in complexity and variety. In part I assume this is a matter of experience, the amateurs having played through the game multiple times and seeing what worked and what didn't. In part its probably a matter of different time presures on the mapmakers, the amateurs only have whatever deadlines they choose for themselves (if any).

If there are any of the orginial mapmakers reading this please don't interpret this as any slight against you, its just a matter of time for maping styles to change. People will always find new ways to use the tools that were built to build the game. In many ways I consider the FoT map editor to be a more impressive accomplishment than the game itself.

J I

[Max-Violence]

In many ways I consider the FoT map editor to be a more impressive accomplishment than the game itself.

Amen to that!

I really hope Microforte decides to use this engine for another squad-based tactical combat game sometime (or at least sell the engine to another company so THEY can use it for a S-BTC game). They're using the engine for some racing game, so that won't quite "fill the gap"