Mad Max 4 gets closer!

[Constipated BladeRunner]

But a fusion based cycle, wouldnt that defeat the prupose?
What's a bike without the gas engine?

[avenger69ie]

all the same to me, plus its got two wheels and is generally got a better acceleration than a car, better for rough terrain, ....poyfect for fast getaways...specially if yer a raider! or rogue type thief person heheh

[Rosh]

Since gas is rare (read: nonexistant for all practical purposes), a fusion-powered bike would be great if it could be made, depending/benefitting on/from a few things:

1. It doesn't allow a "pack-rat exploit" like Fallout 2's car trunk that made carry weight a minor thing and about a couple of Perks really useless.
2. Allows for only 1 or 2 people to ride, unless a sidecar is made. This adds for some logistic considerations of the player of "Do I want a large team or move fast?"
3. That is, if the components survived the EMP fields of the bombing. A motorbike wouldn't be harder to cobble together, or a tri-bike, than a car.

A tri-bike with three wheels would allow a little bit of carrying capacity while giving speed for the hero and a couple of team members, and wouldn't be too exceptionally hard to put together IF the parts to convert energy to torque is still around, i.e. car/Highwayman parts.. Preferably that would be Dogmeat riding along.

[Red]

I'm no expert, but I beleive that EMP only temporary disables electronics.

There is an extra problem though in which transistors are usually broken because of radiation (so a friend in electronics told me anyhow), however that's a non-issue as neither of these affect valves/tubes (which aren't affected) and when looking at Fallout, it seems to use valves proeminently...

[Constipated BladeRunner]

A) The main reason why everyone loves bikes is due to the bad ass sound effects, the main byproduct of the gasoline engine.
I thought everone agreed- no driveable vehicles?

[Rosh]

I'm no expert, but I beleive that EMP only temporary disables electronics.

The effects are *hardly* temporary.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5971/emp.html

While sophisticated electronics is even more vulnerable, even early electronics with tubes are quite vulnerable.

[Constipated BladeRunner]

Yeah- Ocean's 11 is fantasy land.

[Walks with the Snails]

Bikes get loads better mileage, too, plus they're much easier to maintain. I think people in the post-apocalypse would want a bike more than a car.

You can also still have a combustion engine in the post-apolcalypse, or even before then when oil is running out. Just fill 'er up with Buckner's Best. I can see motorcycle enthusiasts in the oil crisis buying motorcyles made to run on ethanol so they can still ride them a lot without breaking the bank.

[Red]

The effects are *hardly* temporary.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5971/emp.html

While sophisticated electronics is even more vulnerable, even early electronics with tubes are quite vulnerable.

It is temporary. Once the excess energy of the EMP blast is disspated then everything returns back to normal. The question is can the tubes withstand the EMP voltage, and form what I gather the tubes are more resistant than the transistors - but not invulnerable. The article doesn't talk about them, it just mentions shielding. As for sophiostacted eletronics I already mentioned that wasn't even relevant as Fallout's seem less then sophisticated... And finally your rticle talks about "the placement of the blasts" but not it's power. What if in Fallout there were many small ground blasts? It's mentioned that the ground blasts dissapate better, and there's nothing indicating how the voltage relates to the blast strenght.

And since when do motorcycles need electronics anyway?

[VasikkA]

You gotta remember that Fallout is not Mad Max. Now, I'd rather drive around with a Corvega Highwayman than a gangsta bike. I'd like Fallout 3 to take a step away from the Mad Max/New Reno type of violent post-apocalyptic world filled with cars and bullets, and take a step towards the original retro post-apocalyptic setting. Fallout is an original and interesting setting which doesn't need any influences from other series.

A question about EMP: is it harmful to humans/animals? I took a quick glance at the link but didn't find any answer. Also, Pulse(EMP?) grenades in FOT doesn't do any damage to biological creatures, but Pulse weapons in Fallout 2 does which I find weird.

[Rosh]

It is temporary.

Oh, yes. The surge happens and everything's perfectly fucking fine after that. No offence, but get a clue about basic electronics. The effects are pretty damaging and *quite* permanent.

Here's a clue for the laymen from an electronic engineer:
Most phones would be fried, as would anything else more complex, even phones of that time period. There's something about ~10-50 kV/m being rather harsh to electronics, since if you throw that against some low-power components, it would be rather idiotic to expect much to survive that. Even light bulbs would burn out from the voltage level bringing along a surge of rich, chunky amperage. The best way to think about EMP would be like a lightning bolt's effects, but in a wave pattern and spread out. A lightning bolt is going to surge towards a conductive target unless there's something in the way to absorb and draw it away, and it will go until it's essentially grounded out. EMP doesn't quite work that way and I'm not going to go into the full thing, but that's about the nearest example to give an idea about how it affects things.

Once the excess energy of the EMP blast is disspated then everything returns back to normal.

Except that you have to find a way to put the Magic Blue Smoke back in.

The question is can the tubes withstand the EMP voltage, and form what I gather the tubes are more resistant than the transistors - but not invulnerable. The article doesn't talk about them, it just mentions shielding.

Yes, it does talk about that. A few paragraphics, in fact.

As for sophiostacted eletronics I already mentioned that wasn't even relevant as Fallout's seem less then sophisticated...

Ever seen what even a *small* brown-out can do to some electronics? With or without surge protectors, it would still be pretty bad.

And finally your rticle talks about "the placement of the blasts" but not it's power.

1-800-544-7323
Ask for a refund.

What if in Fallout there were many small ground blasts? It's mentioned that the ground blasts dissapate better, and there's nothing indicating how the voltage relates to the blast strenght.

If you don't even have a beginning knowledge about electronics, or for that matter electronic surges, just stop now.

And since when do motorcycles need electronics anyway?

Do you remember the discussion (which, coincidentally hasn't moved from it's spot last I looked), or do I need to repeat it for you? Hint: It's on the same page as your post...

And then, to top this all off:

Why the hell do you think the Corvega was advertised about being fully analog, no computers, etc.? Because it might be due to the worry of such EMP pulses, perhaps? Fusion was looked to as an alternative to oil, to lessen the want and crisis that led up to the war, but it was quite expensive to produce. It was also something that was quite remarkable to have survived the war because of the EMP.

You gotta remember that Fallout is not Mad Max.

Agreed, true. But there's many things still similar.

Now, I'd rather drive around with a Corvega Highwayman than a gangsta bike.

Not really, because by the science and even scare of the effects of EMP of the time-frame from what Fallout was borrowed (which was just slightly exaggerated from what it really is, but not by much), the Highwayman shouldn't exist other than scrap. Also, a cobbled-together bike has more of a wasteland survival feel to it, like you're running off of stuff pieced together from the wreckage of the past. Which often is the point of games like Wasteland, Fallout, and the post-apocalyptic genre because that is it's main thing.

In a development note, I wouldn't like another car like the Fo2 one, since it made 2 perks useless and carry weight useless. It was a great concern in Fallout 1, but in Fallout 2 you were an ammo supply store on wheels.

On behalf of the Road Warrior and HOG owners, eat that "gangsta bike" comment. ;P

I'd like Fallout 3 to take a step away from the Mad Max/New Reno type of violent post-apocalyptic world filled with cars and bullets, and take a step towards the original retro post-apocalyptic setting.

Yet you just said something about a car. Which is it? You're starting to sound as confused as Red. Besides, Mad Max and New Reno are *really* quite different. More of your equipment should be "born from the ashes of yesterday", and if it includes a bike that you might have to barter/steal/talk/kill your way to get, then that's part of wasteland survival.

Fallout is an original and interesting setting which doesn't need any influences from other series.

It's not really borrowing much from other series other than the shitty jokes and design they used for New Reno, the Highwayman, and other details. A cobbled bike *does* fit into the post-apocalyptic genre, and if it looks like it was made from car scrap, all the more sweet.

A question about EMP: is it harmful to humans/animals? I took a quick glance at the link but didn't find any answer. Also, Pulse(EMP?) grenades in FOT doesn't do any damage to biological creatures, but Pulse weapons in Fallout 2 does which I find weird.

No, it's not really noticable to humans or animals. Those with metal implants will feel severe pain due to the surge, and those on pacemakers/artificial organs are totally fucked. The pulse grenades have never really done any damage to soft targets in Fallout, as they shouldn't

Here's a fun fact: A large exploding transformer can often generate it's own EMP field. This is where Small Soldiers and a couple of other books/movies have borrowed that from, but that's a minor thing. It's more noticable if it was due to overloading, and can damage electronics and prematurely kill off light bulbs in a bright flash. Try putting about 400 more volts onto a bulb than supposed to, the corresponding amperage will make it go nice and bright until it burns out white and the filament would often be hot enough to melt into the glass. Now, think about the construction of vacuum tube, of which a diode is pretty much a small version. Yes, those LEDs would burn out, too, perhaps even faster than that light bulb.

[Red]

Oh, yes. The surge happens and everything's perfectly fucking fine after that. No offence, but get a clue about basic electronics. The effects are pretty damaging and *quite* permanent.

I never said that. You intepret it as "everything return to normal" where all I express is that the voltage returns to normal parameters at which point everything that isn't broken works dandy.

Here's a clue for the laymen from an electronic engineer:
Most phones would be fried, as would anything else more complex, even phones of that time period. There's something about ~10-50 kV/m being rather harsh to electronics, since if you throw that against some low-power components, it would be rather idiotic to expect much to survive that. Even light bulbs would burn out from the voltage level bringing along a surge of rich, chunky amperage. The best way to think about EMP would be like a lightning bolt's effects, but in a wave pattern and spread out. A lightning bolt is going to surge towards a conductive target unless there's something in the way to absorb and draw it away, and it will go until it's essentially grounded out. EMP doesn't quite work that way and I'm not going to go into the full thing, but that's about the nearest example to give an idea about how it affects things.

Does the v/m equate to a specific amperage or something? As for your approximations that's all they are, and I have no idea how "approximate" they really are.

Except that you have to find a way to put the Magic Blue Smoke back in.

Personally I was thinking that the resistance has shortened out rather then the bulb explodes.

Yes, it does talk about that. A few paragraphics, in fact.

Oh yeah

If the United States is still preparing for war, it must shield itself from the effects of EMP. Theoretically, damage due to EMP could be extensive. Much of this damage may be avoidable if the United States takes measures to harden all its communication systems, power systems, and such.

That's just so precise... We have no idea on what equipement it was tested on and on top of it doesn't even mention the source. Checking up on some information yielded the only result that "tubes are more resistant then transistors but are still quite vulnerable". Ok, well, you still have a better chances then with conventional transistors

Ever seen what even a *small* brown-out can do to some electronics?

Aren't brown-outs caused by lack of voltage?

1-800-544-7323
Ask for a refund.

Actually the only person who should get a refund is you for linking to it and it carrying so little imfornation.

What if in Fallout there were many small ground blasts? It's mentioned that the ground blasts dissapate better, and there's nothing indicating how the voltage relates to the blast strenght.

If you don't even have a beginning knowledge about electronics, or for that matter electronic surges, just stop now.[/quote]How about tackling the question instead of avoiding it. No I have no idea what would happen and my guess is that the kV/m would lower. So eenlighten me oh great one.

And since when do motorcycles need electronics anyway?

Do you remember the discussion (which, coincidentally hasn't moved from it's spot last I looked), or do I need to repeat it for you? Hint: It's on the same page as your post...[/quote]I'm talking in the Fallout world really. And if you look at older models of motorcycles they had no electronics. I'm not talking about real-world motorcycles but thoreticle Fallout ones. Let's stay in context here.

Because it might be due to the worry of such EMP pulses, perhaps? Fusion was looked to as an alternative to oil, to lessen the want and crisis that led up to the war, but it was quite expensive to produce. It was also something that was quite remarkable to have survived the war because of the EMP.

I'd tend to agree, some parties (notably CA) wouldn't.

Instead of being so aggressive to someone who asks questions about the facts and who puts some of your knowledge forth, how about being constructive?

[Rosh]

I never said that. You intepret it as "everything return to normal" where all I express is that the voltage returns to normal parameters at which point everything that isn't broken works dandy.

You didn't say that. You said "Once the excess energy of the EMP blast is disspated then everything returns back to normal." When, quite contrary, everything is not normal. The only thing different is the EMP is gone. The effects of the EMP are still there, some letting off a nice hue and some smoke.

Does the v/m equate to a specific amperage or something? As for your approximations that's all they are, and I have no idea how "approximate" they really are.

That's why I said I wasn't going to bother much, because I'm not going to teach you something on which you're arguing about. Oh, the irony.

Personally I was thinking that the resistance has shortened out rather then the bulb explodes.

Bulb explodes? Where the hell do you get that from?

In the case of a light bulb, yes, it would "short'". Since it's already a wire, it goes along what makes the light bulb work and MAKES THE FILAMENT HOTTER AND BRIGHTER TO THE POINT OF BURN-OUT. What happens when things short? That is an answer I'm not going to teach you, but again I'll remark that it's ironic you're arguing about something upon which you're replying to in defense but with little knowledge on. But here's a cookie for trying anyways.

Yes, it does talk about that. A few paragraphics, in fact.

Oh yeah

If the United States is still preparing for war, it must shield itself from the effects of EMP. Theoretically, damage due to EMP could be extensive. Much of this damage may be avoidable if the United States takes measures to harden all its communication systems, power systems, and such.

That's just so precise... We have no idea on what equipement it was tested on and on top of it doesn't even mention the source. Checking up on some information yielded the only result that "tubes are more resistant then transistors but are still quite vulnerable". Ok, well, you still have a better chances then with conventional transistors

There's more than that there. Try again, and this time don't just skim.

Ever seen what even a *small* brown-out can do to some electronics?

Aren't brown-outs caused by lack of voltage?

In a very...simple way of putting it. A brown-out is a cut of power, but often in a very unstable way that often has a series of surges invisible to the average joe. Commonly, the term brown-out is used to indicate a temporary loss of power due to either overload or a surge.

1-800-544-7323
Ask for a refund.

Actually the only person who should get a refund is you for linking to it and it carrying so little imfornation.

No, I'd suggest you go here instead, since you keep insisting upon arguing on about what you don't know much about. I did post the information. You then either lied about having read it or didn't understand it at all. As you seem to have forgotten or can't be bothered to read this thread, I'm more inclined to think you're just arguing for the sake of it instead of worrying about the subject matter.

What if in Fallout there were many small ground blasts? It's mentioned that the ground blasts dissapate better, and there's nothing indicating how the voltage relates to the blast strenght.

If you don't even have a beginning knowledge about electronics, or for that matter electronic surges, just stop now.

How about tackling the question instead of avoiding it. No I have no idea what would happen and my guess is that the kV/m would lower. So eenlighten me oh great one.

"The EMP from a single hydrogen bomb exploded 300 kilometers over the heart of the United States could set up electrical field 50 kV/m strong over nearly all of North America"

Now, given that it went into the differences and strengths of the different typs of blast from HEMPs ro grounds, ground blasts would be more than 50kV/m but in a smaller area (but still substantially large).

Survey says: You didn't read the essay and you're bullshitting me that you did. Bad Monkey! *takes cookie back*

And since when do motorcycles need electronics anyway?

Do you remember the discussion (which, coincidentally hasn't moved from it's spot last I looked), or do I need to repeat it for you? Hint: It's on the same page as your post...

I'm talking in the Fallout world really.

So was the rest of the people in the discussion too.

And if you look at older models of motorcycles they had no electronics.

Irrelevent. Most likely used to pad the post with diversionary bullshit.

I'm not talking about real-world motorcycles but thoreticle Fallout ones. Let's stay in context here.

This is so full of bullshit and irony, when you have obviously forgotten what people were talking about in this thread. It's not like the posts have gone anywhere, unless you need help in order to figure how to go back a page or two in the thread. It's even more ironic when you talk about older motorcycles having no electronics and tell me to stay in context. Now, what were people talking about in this thread?

A FUSION-POWERED MOTORCYCLE, PERHAPS?

FUUSIHOAN NEDS WHUTT KINDA THINGIES? ELEKTRIKKITY, MEBBE?!

Holy shit, you're starting to make Constipated Bladerunner look outright brilliant in comparison.

Instead of being so aggressive to someone who asks questions about the facts and who puts some of your knowledge forth, how about being constructive?

Red, you should know I deteste bullshit and having smoke blown up my ass. I was being constructive. READ THE FUCKING THREAD AND THAT ESSAY BOTH AGAIN BEFORE YOU REPLY. Asking questions about the facts is a laugh when I've already directed you to something that points out answers to questions that you've asked after I posted it. Then, like the changes in effect of a kV surve when it was already measured in double-digits, should be rather common-sense. If it's lighter but severe up at an altitude, lower down (as mentioned in the essay, it should be even more rough. kV put to many electronics and even filament devices, tends to burn them out rather fast.

[Red]

You didn't say that. You said "Once the excess energy of the EMP blast is disspated then everything returns back to normal." When, quite contrary, everything is not normal. The only thing different is the EMP is gone. The effects of the EMP are still there, some letting off a nice hue and some smoke.

Yes, I did but you ommit the very next sentence "The question is can the tubes withstand the EMP voltage". This implies that anything withstanding it would still work.

That's why I said I wasn't going to bother much, because I'm not going to teach you something on which you're arguing about. Oh, the irony.

It's funny though, that if you simply answered "yes it is realated" it would prove that you're right and I'd understant that (and would aprpecaite a link/reference). Yet instead you keep making snide comments. Why would it be wrong to bring forth facts that would help me understand? Am I better off not knowing this? Or maybe you think it would be a waste of time to explain all that to me since I'm just a stubborn fool, yet you take the time to reply rather lenghtly to every single little comment I make on this forum?

Bulb explodes? Where the hell do you get that from?

A misinterpretation of a bad joke which I didn't see and feel rather foolish about it now. Bascially it invloves me thinking about valves while you referring to transistors and you talking about smoke.

In the case of a light bulb, yes, it would "short'". Since it's already a wire, it goes along what makes the light bulb work and MAKES THE FILAMENT HOTTER AND BRIGHTER TO THE POINT OF BURN-OUT. What happens when things short? That is an answer I'm not going to teach you, but again I'll remark that it's ironic you're arguing about something upon which you're replying to in defense but with little knowledge on.

I don't see why you're getting all over in a fuss here since we agree. Not only that but you explain exactly what happens when things short and then say you won't tell me. Quite amusing.

There's more than that there. Try again, and this time don't just skim.

There is but barely and can be generally summed up to the sentence I've quoted which seemed the most relevant. The only place I've skimmed is the "US Policy" since I don't give about US's position on the subject.

In a very...simple way of putting it. A brown-out is a cut of power, but often in a very unstable way that often has a series of surges invisible to the average joe. Commonly, the term brown-out is used to indicate a temporary loss of power due to either overload or a surge.

Well I don't live in California and though I've noticed some small surges and rather too frequent black-outs, the answer would then be no.

You then either lied about having read it or didn't understand it at all. As you seem to have forgotten or can't be bothered to read this thread, I'm more inclined to think you're just arguing for the sake of it instead of worrying about the subject matter.

I'm arguing for tow reasons mainly. The first is identify a peice of information that I might be missing for my own knowledge and the second simply to know wether I'm right or wrong.

"The EMP from a single hydrogen bomb exploded 300 kilometers over the heart of the United States could set up electrical field 50 kV/m strong over nearly all of North America"

Now, given that it went into the differences and strengths of the different typs of blast from HEMPs ro grounds, ground blasts would be more than 50kV/m but in a smaller area (but still substantially large).

Fine and dande, however US is large, we don't know the relation of the tonnage vs the voltage generated. We do know they were ground explosions since ICBMs were used. We also know pertaining to this article that earth absorbs EMP pretty well. We don't know how spread apprat the blasts were. And latesly the force of the blast's voltages wasnt' discussed in the article, and even less the distances it covers. Pertaining all these missing facts from teh artcile you posted (and our knowledge of fallout), how do you know that "everything was taken out" AND the actual voltage of the blast? I mean your statement is simply a comclusion drawn upon the other statement, not a fact, although I'm inclined to beleive it. The other factors still remain.

Now, what were people talking about in this thread?

You confuse "People" with "you".

Red, you should know I deteste bullshit and having smoke blown up my ass.

Yeah, I have no further comments on that remark.

kV put to many electronics and even filament devices, tends to burn them out rather fast.

I never denied that. My only claim was that tubes were slightly less susceptible than transistors - in light of the article. And if it survived the original EMP blast, it would still function quite adequately.

[Rosh]

You didn't say that. You said "Once the excess energy of the EMP blast is disspated then everything returns back to normal." When, quite contrary, everything is not normal. The only thing different is the EMP is gone. The effects of the EMP are still there, some letting off a nice hue and some smoke.

Yes, I did but you ommit the very next sentence "The question is can the tubes withstand the EMP voltage". This implies that anything withstanding it would still work.

Tubes are connected to the curcuit board, feel the surge, and are likely overloaded to burn-out. If it's burnt out, then that is an effect of the EMP.

Easier to understand? I'm not going into basic electronics theory unless I'm going to be paid for it, it's not worth my time.

That's why I said I wasn't going to bother much, because I'm not going to teach you something on which you're arguing about. Oh, the irony.

It's funny though, that if you simply answered "yes it is realated" it would prove that you're right and I'd understant that (and would aprpecaite a link/reference). Yet instead you keep making snide comments. Why would it be wrong to bring forth facts that would help me understand? Am I better off not knowing this? Or maybe you think it would be a waste of time to explain all that to me since I'm just a stubborn fool, yet you take the time to reply rather lenghtly to every single little comment I make on this forum?

Because some things get *very* annoying since you're arguing about things while not having the information or having much comprehension on even material the article had. There's even some blatantly simple things that I'll take great pains (i.e. waste time) to point out.

In the case of a light bulb, yes, it would "short'". Since it's already a wire, it goes along what makes the light bulb work and MAKES THE FILAMENT HOTTER AND BRIGHTER TO THE POINT OF BURN-OUT. What happens when things short? That is an answer I'm not going to teach you, but again I'll remark that it's ironic you're arguing about something upon which you're replying to in defense but with little knowledge on.

I don't see why you're getting all over in a fuss here since we agree. Not only that but you explain exactly what happens when things short and then say you won't tell me. Quite amusing.

In reality, the truly amusing thing would be to say that a bulb "shorts". That's how a light bulb works in the first place. It's a narrowed piece of line, hardened so it can withstand the power it radiates from the excessive energy.

To further point out the obvious:

Vacuum tubes have filaments, too, and would be as affected or even more by EMP, depending upon the construction and how the equipment was engineered.

There's more than that there. Try again, and this time don't just skim.

There is but barely and can be generally summed up to the sentence I've quoted which seemed the most relevant. The only place I've skimmed is the "US Policy" since I don't give about US's position on the subject.

But you quoted one mere part of the affects from the article and made as if it was the only bit in there.

In a very...simple way of putting it. A brown-out is a cut of power, but often in a very unstable way that often has a series of surges invisible to the average joe. Commonly, the term brown-out is used to indicate a temporary loss of power due to either overload or a surge.

Well I don't live in California and though I've noticed some small surges and rather too frequent black-outs, the answer would then be no.

What does California have to do with anything? Is this another one of your tangents? Answer to no....to what? With brown-outs and every time the power cuts out on a wide area, there is a fair number of surges that can last mere miliseconds that people cannot detect. If connected to monitoring equipment, they would be very noticable.

Fine and dande, however US is large, we don't know the relation of the tonnage vs the voltage generated.

Even a widespread blast surging down from a HEMP makes a nasty pulse over most of North America, from a "standard" hydrogen bomb. If they don't include specifics of tonnage, it's the common-build of that time. With a ground blast, which would be closer to what is affected, it would be much more severe than 50kV/m. 50kV/m is still enough to do a certain amount of damage to most electronics and burn out common appliances.

We do know they were ground explosions since ICBMs were used.

In discussion about HEMPs, no. That was a high-arial where it covered a large area with a significant amount of EMP voltage, with a common-build hydrogen bomb of the time of its writing.

We also know pertaining to this article that earth absorbs EMP pretty well. We don't know how spread apprat the blasts were.

In Fallout, no. The EMP does, from my recollection, travel further than the damaging blast.

And latesly the force of the blast's voltages wasnt' discussed in the article, and even less the distances it covers. Pertaining all these missing facts from teh artcile you posted (and our knowledge of fallout), how do you know that "everything was taken out" AND the actual voltage of the blast? I mean your statement is simply a comclusion drawn upon the other statement, not a fact, although I'm inclined to beleive it. The other factors still remain.

A HEMP blast does a wide-range effect of 50kV/m. Ground blasts are signficantly more powerful but in a smaller area of effect, but not that much.

This is all in the article and I've stated this already, but in a different way. Hopefully this re-iteration gets through. Sorry if I don't have any hard numbers, but even 50kV/m and greater isn't enough to convince you that "most electronics and even electrical devices = fucked".

Now, what were people talking about in this thread?

You confuse "People" with "you".

Get
your
head
out
from
your
clenched
ass (this one's good... "only temporary disables electronics"...like boiling the radiation out of water? Or that "There is an extra problem though in which transistors are usually broken because of radiation (so a friend in electronics told me anyhow)". Nice imaginary friend, unless they are an idiot. :roll:)
and
read.

I never denied that. My only claim was that tubes were slightly less susceptible than transistors - in light of the article. And if it survived the original EMP blast, it would still function quite adequately.

Barely even that, on their own. Depending upon their construction and if in a sensitive setup, or in a calibrating ensemble, they would be more at risk. But let's not forget your "friend in electronics" who knows all this, and that "radiation breaks transistors".
:roll:

[Red]

Tubes are connected to the curcuit board, feel the surge, and are likely overloaded to burn-out. If it's burnt out, then that is an effect of the EMP.

Sure, no problem, I never said they were invulnerable did I - or at least not after you pointed out the article? All things I've read about EMP mentioned that tubes were more resistant to EMP then conventinal transistors.

Because some things get *very* annoying since you're arguing about things while not having the information or having much comprehension on even material the article had. There's even some blatantly simple things that I'll take great pains (i.e. waste time) to point out.

You're not abligated to continue this conversation with such a lowly person as I am.

But you quoted one mere part of the affects from the article and made as if it was the only bit in there.

Why bother? It doesn't bring forth any other information.

What does California have to do with anything?

California has been known to suffer brown outs because they failed to pay their electric bills. Now I don't have any idea if it was "correct" to call them brown outs, but that's what they called it. Is the act of adding a little flavor to a post so wrong?[/quote]

Even a widespread blast surging down from a HEMP makes a nasty pulse over most of North America, from a "standard" hydrogen bomb. If they don't include specifics of tonnage, it's the common-build of that time. With a ground blast, which would be closer to what is affected, it would be much more severe than 50kV/m.

I found some extra information... Of course I can't exacly know how valid it is as much as we can trust the web... Anyway, "Since the ground is a relatively good conductor of electricity it provides an alternative path for the electrons." So ground blasts would be worst then low altitude blasts, and amperage "The nature of the problem is that the voltage pulse arising from the EMP rises to kilovolts in one billionth of a second and currents in the kilo-amp range."

We do know they were ground explosions since ICBMs were used.

In discussion about HEMPs, no. That was a high-arial where it covered a large area with a significant amount of EMP voltage, with a common-build hydrogen bomb of the time of its writing.

Of course not. I'm applying it to Fallout. In Fallout they used ICBMs, thus the corrolation from HEMP (in article) to ground(in Fallout)/low altitude hits was somewhat nebulous, and see my above comment about it.

In Fallout, no. The EMP does, from my recollection, travel further than the damaging blast.

That's right "It also popped circuit breakers, street lights went out, burglar alarms rang, and power lines went down in Honolulu, about 800 miles away." and this was from a 1megaton blast, something probably larger in Fallout's blasts... The article doesn't mention how much things actually broke down though.

A HEMP blast does a wide-range effect of 50kV/m. Ground blasts are signficantly more powerful but in a smaller area of effect, but not that much.

I apologize, I meant amperage.

"only temporary disables electronics"

It's still true, depending on your distance from the blast. Dunno what's so hard to understand about that. On top of it your own article states that about 3' of earth uaully absorbs the gamma rays and thus makes anything underneath less vulnerable. I'm quite sure there's plenty of stuff bunked up under...

...like boiling the radiation out of water?

Never said that. Only mentioned purifying it - as in removing bacteria and possibly some sediments. You decided to throw in radiation which I didn't care about... Anyway take that to the other thread.

Or that "There is an extra problem though in which transistors are usually broken because of radiation (so a friend in electronics told me anyhow)". Nice imaginary friend, unless they are an idiot. :roll:)

We'll I'll take my imaginary friend out for an imagenary beer and talk in metaphorical dreams about all this sometime.

As for that last bunch of links. You still seem to have an issue with people actually continuing to discuss things thouroughly. Just because it takes a while to answer because I'm a bit busy and a few posts go by doesn't mean we can continue our conversation.

[Saint_Proverbius]

I found some extra information... Of course I can't exacly know how valid it is as much as we can trust the web... Anyway, "Since the ground is a relatively good conductor of electricity it provides an alternative path for the electrons." So ground blasts would be worst then low altitude blasts, and amperage "The nature of the problem is that the voltage pulse arising from the EMP rises to kilovolts in one billionth of a second and currents in the kilo-amp range."

EMP isn't like typical electricity. For all intends an purposes, it's a wave of variating magnetic energy. As such, it generates a current in a closed circuit loop and that's what fries the electronics. As such, the ground wouldn't really do much as far as "lessenning" the EMP at all, since it's a spherical, expanding pulse. It wouldn't matter much if it were ground burst or air burst, anything with a close circuit near it would get a current induced.

However, anything that's turned off would stand a better chance of surviving than something that's turned on, because it's not a closed circuit. It depends on the strength of the EMP. If the EMP is strong enough to induce a current powerful enough to make that current jump the gap in the switch, then that circuit will be closed and those components will be damaged. This also applies to vacuum tubes, since those rely on current jumping gaps inside them.

[Rosh]

Sure, no problem, I never said they were invulnerable did I - or at least not after you pointed out the article? All things I've read about EMP mentioned that tubes were more resistant to EMP then conventinal transistors.

Yes, but remember your original wad of bullshit?

I'm no expert, but I beleive that EMP only temporary disables electronics.

You're not abligated to continue this conversation with such a lowly person as I am.

Indeed. It is quite a waste of time picking through your pseudo-knowledge.

But you quoted one mere part of the affects from the article and made as if it was the only bit in there.

Why bother? It doesn't bring forth any other information.

On that topic of what you bitched about, it did have substantially more relevent than what you quoted from and then bitched about it having so little. Incdluding a numerical figure that's been quoted more than 3 times already. Then it put other factors into relation that any programmer familiar with a greater than, less than, or proportionate to should be able to piece together.

What does California have to do with anything?

California has been known to suffer brown outs because they failed to pay their electric bills. Now I don't have any idea if it was "correct" to call them brown outs, but that's what they called it.

Hence either overloads, and when the grid fails, there are intermittent surges. California, as you brought up, was a really ambiguous and at that time irrelevent topic to bring up as it was presented without any connecting information.

Is the act of adding a little flavor to a post so wrong?

Only when that flavor comes from the south end of a north-bound cow.

I found some extra information... Of course I can't exacly know how valid it is as much as we can trust the web... Anyway, "Since the ground is a relatively good conductor of electricity it provides an alternative path for the electrons." So ground blasts would be worst then low altitude blasts, and amperage "The nature of the problem is that the voltage pulse arising from the EMP rises to kilovolts in one billionth of a second and currents in the kilo-amp range."

Wow, great way to pull absolutely nothing from your ass and try to look knowledgeable about it. When I could then re-link to that essay, which would point out that ground is shielding from EMP and that the denser atmosphere reduces the effect radius, but not a whole lot.

Of course, I could point out like Prov has said already, that EMP is not like ordinary electricity, and this random tidbit you found on Google about electronics is irrelevent save to try to dig yourself out of an impact crater with a spork.

Of course not. I'm applying it to Fallout. In Fallout they used ICBMs, thus the corrolation from HEMP (in article) to ground(in Fallout)/low altitude hits was somewhat nebulous, and see my above comment about it.

Which results in stronger but slightly more localized areas of effect. Also, if I recall some bits correctly, the bombs in Fallout were also dropped from planes.

That's right "It also popped circuit breakers, street lights went out, burglar alarms rang, and power lines went down in Honolulu, about 800 miles away." and this was from a 1megaton blast, something probably larger in Fallout's blasts... The article doesn't mention how much things actually broke down though.

That is the fringe effect, yes. Not entirely the EMP effect, however.

"only temporary disables electronics"

It's still true, depending on your distance from the blast. Dunno what's so hard to understand about that.

Don't try that load of horseshit. Well, it does figure that you'd change from horseshit, since the bullshit was getting rather monotonous.

In your original point, you made it to sound like EMP = "only temporary disables electronics". To try to say it's "still true", it would be like saying "bomb blasts don't kill people" when in fact they could survive - if they were far away enough, that is, but it's hardly an accurate labeling of the effect. Granted that EMP isn't as strong at the fringes than it is at the center, but EMP overall destroys electronics. You can't really back out of using a whole quantifier now.

...like boiling the radiation out of water?

Never said that. Only mentioned purifying it - as in removing bacteria and possibly some sediments. You decided to throw in radiation which I didn't care about... Anyway take that to the other thread.

Doesn't matter. Same bullshit, different thread.

In reply to why using irradiated water is bad:

Why do you need to use pure water? I mean sur it boils faster then "dirty water", but it'd be just stupid...
Thinking it over, boiling water is a very good way to clean the water actually.

No mention about "bacteria", "sediments", or whatever. "Dirty", particularly in how it was used, is a term used to reference irradiated or greatly radioactive.

You know, that is a poor habit of yours and it's becoming quite tiresome.

We'll I'll take my imaginary friend out for an imagenary beer and talk in metaphorical dreams about all this sometime.

You do that, Sparky. EMP effects are only temporary and radiation breaks transistors.

Yeah, good thing there's nothing like electronic Geiger counters, or else it would be something like a solar-powered flashlight, eh?

As for that last bunch of links. You still seem to have an issue with people actually continuing to discuss things thouroughly. Just because it takes a while to answer because I'm a bit busy and a few posts go by doesn't mean we can continue our conversation.

No, you were the one who was bitching because they couldn't seem to figure out how some things were relevent, or had a clue that we were talking about fusion-powered motorcycles. That is, until you successfully derailed the entire thread with heaps of pseudo-knowledge bullshit.

[VasikkA]

Agreed, true. But there's many things still similar.

Yes there are and the Mad Max style post-apocalypse is definitely a part of the fallout universe but it shouldn't be the main point of view at the cost of 50's retro feeling, which is also essential in Fallout. Too many biker gangs/scrap vehicles etc. would emphasize this, not necessarily to the good.

Not really, because by the science and even scare of the effects of EMP of the time-frame from what Fallout was borrowed (which was just slightly exaggerated from what it really is, but not by much), the Highwayman shouldn't exist other than scrap. Also, a cobbled-together bike has more of a wasteland survival feel to it, like you're running off of stuff pieced together from the wreckage of the past. Which often is the point of games like Wasteland, Fallout, and the post-apocalyptic genre because that is it's main thing.

The Highwayman was a piece of scrap when you picked it up, but it was repairable. I'm sure there are other repairable cars in fallout universe, not too many though. I'm not even going to imagine MCA's view on this, but pre-war cars to some limit should exist as many other pre-war gadgets, preferably fusion-powered. 'Cobbled-together' bikes and other vehicles fit in the post-apocalyptic theme but as I said in my previous paragraph, the retro 50's aspect is equally important. Out of the two options, I would choose the Highwayman.

In a development note, I wouldn't like another car like the Fo2 one, since it made 2 perks useless and carry weight useless. It was a great concern in Fallout 1, but in Fallout 2 you were an ammo supply store on wheels.

This could easily be tweaked/fixed. I agree though that carry weight became useless in Fallout 2 and there should've be an item limit or a weight limit on your trunk making it impossible to stuff 10 miniguns and shitloads of ammo there. A car(or bike) as a movement speed upgrade would be cool in Fallout 3. Getting the car in Fallout 2 gave me the same feeling as when I got the Power Armor for the first time in Fallout. Something you don't easily forget. :roll:

Yet you just said something about a car. Which is it? You're starting to sound as confused as Red. Besides, Mad Max and New Reno are *really* quite different. More of your equipment should be "born from the ashes of yesterday", and if it includes a bike that you might have to barter/steal/talk/kill your way to get, then that's part of wasteland survival.

I mentioned the car because it represents the retro 50's feeling in Fallout. If there's a 50's style bike in Fallout 3, then that's fine. New Reno and Mad Max are different from eachother, you're right about that, but they both represent the 'other' aspect of the fallout series. This aspect should also be in Fallout 3, but not over-done as New Reno in Fallout 2. A step back to the original setting in Fallout would be important.

[Red]

Yes, but remember your original wad of bullshit?

I'm no expert, but I beleive that EMP only temporary disables electronics.

Yup, that's the original statement which triggered your prattle, however i've pointed out several times that this original stetements was wrong and specifically in relation to reading the article you've posted.

Hence either overloads, and when the grid fails, there are intermittent surges. California, as you brought up, was a really ambiguous and at that time irrelevent topic to bring up as it was presented without any connecting information.

I have to admit comparing my idea of "brown-outs" (ie California's) and those which you described was really irrelevant to me understanding what you meant.

Wow, great way to pull absolutely nothing from your ass and try to look knowledgeable about it.

I'm not. Never claimed I was, but it did add some relevant infromation about the subject. Of course that doesn't matter to you.

Of course, I could point out like Prov has said already, that EMP is not like ordinary electricity, and this random tidbit you found on Google about electronics is irrelevent

Perhaps, maybe instead you could find further infomration about it. From what I gather there is actually not that much information about EMP throughout. At least in my lack of knowledge I'm searching with means I can.

the bombs in Fallout were also dropped from planes.

I think so, point was simply that they were ground balsts not HEMP...

You can't really back out of using a whole quantifier now.

Well, when you nuke an entire (and quite big) country, there's bound to be places where there is no ground zero. Point being that not everything electronic would be destroyed in the country. Not near the blast.

No, you were the one who was bitching because they couldn't seem to figure out how some things were relevent, or had a clue that we were talking about fusion-powered motorcycles.

Actually, the only one who brought up fusion powered motorcycles is still you and in a single post. I'm discounting CBR's comments about it killing the purpose of motorcycles since all it was for is the "cool badass sound" since fossil fuels are largely non-existant.