Feargus speaks the bad talk again

[Mad Max RW]

Probably means your hand-eye coordination is shot to hell. :P

[axelgreese]

No. It means I don't like having mess around with that crap.

Seriously, go read a review for a thrid person console game, what do they almost always lose points for? Camera control. It's a pain in the arse. Especially in games like Dark Reign 2, rts' like that I need to worry about more important things then the fricking camera. Pretty colors and multiple angles are just fluf but the camera crap just pisses me off.

And I never once said I couldn't handle it I said it took away the fun. It made games unfun. It pisses me off.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

No. It means I don't like having mess around with that crap.

Seriously, go read a review for a thrid person console game, what do they almost always lose points for? Camera control. It's a pain in the arse. Especially in games like Dark Reign 2, rts' like that I need to worry about more important things then the fricking camera. Pretty colors and multiple angles are just fluf but the camera crap just pisses me off.

And I never once said I couldn't handle it I said it took away the fun. It made games unfun. It pisses me off.

That's true, so many games with fancy cameras that end up getting you killed, I especially dislike the ones that suddenly reverse perspective when you enter a certain area and you can't see for shit where anything is. I don't like the camera for the SOA demo it's seriously putting me off buying the game (if it ever gets released over here), give me an adjustable camera that allows me to choose the angle/amount of zoom I want to see things from but doesn't keep changing of it's own accord. A nice big reset button that returns you to the default view quickly would be nice as well.

[VasikkA]

I think that turn-based combat would not necessarily have a negative effect on sales. I know that people like realistic combat, but D&D real-time is not very realistic either, is it? The problem is that game developers are just a bunch of pussies who are scared of trying something new(in this case, old). How many people would you think would not buy a game just because it says turn-based in the back cover? I doubt gamers today don't even know the meaning of that, so it might come as a surprise to how interesting it actually is. Of course that needs a good turn-based system that isn't slow and boring. I don't care if Fallout 3 has nice 3d effects and stuff but I hope they would keep the isometric angle.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I think that turn-based combat would not necessarily have a negative effect on sales. I know that people like realistic combat, but D&D real-time is not very realistic either, is it? The problem is that game developers are just a bunch of pussies who are scared of trying something new(in this case, old). How many people would you think would not buy a game just because it says turn-based in the back cover? I doubt gamers today don't even know the meaning of that, so it might come as a surprise to how interesting it actually is. Of course that needs a good turn-based system that isn't slow and boring. I don't care if Fallout 3 has nice 3d effects and stuff but I hope they would keep the isometric angle.

TB play obviously has some commercial potential otherwise EvoG and the Project Phoenix team wouldn't be making a TB only game. I'm sure they've done more market research than just asking us lot what we would like. So I don't think that developers aren't just too chicken to create TB games, more likely they want to use RT and believe that their games will be better for doing so. Obviously a TB Fallout 3 would be the better game to fans of the existing format i.e. us, and would likely to have initial success especially as it already has a fan base, unlike Project Phoenix will have to start from scratch. Afterall I'm more likely to go out and buy FO3 sight unseen than I will PP. Would you not buy FO3 if it was RT only, and 3D with a roving camera?

[DarkUnderlord]

I always like it when people, talking about fantasy computer games, bring up "realism".

Shotting taht guy in teh hed wiht my 10mm didn kill him!1! Tihs gaem sux0rz!!1!

I like, tacticaly speaking, turn based combat. But it isn't realistic. How many fights have you been in where you go, you hit me first, then I'll hit you, and so on. NO, you both wallop on each other at the same time.

Umm... Yeah... Never been in a real fight have you? Do you just stand there and "wallop on each other at the same time"? If you want to live/win, you sure as hell don't. It's either extremely one-sided, or it is played in turns.

Besides the fact that if you watch any real-time game closely enough, you'll actually see that they are "hit me first, then I'll hit you, and so on". Didn't you ever notice that in some games?

[VasikkA]

Realism should not matter at all. It's only a fucking game. Even the graphics aren't fotorealistic, your imagination can fill the gaps. That thing doesn't seem to bother people. Same with turn-based, who cares if the NPCs move like they were chess pieces? The problem with TB is not that it is considered more challenging(quite the opposite), but that it's often too slow paced and thus uninteresting. This is what should be avoided. I do hope Project Phoenix and ToEE will challenge all the real-time CRPGs out there and preferably beat their asses. In the end, it's the game itself that matters, but ditching some of the best aspects of the original Fallout would be stupid. If Fallout 3 would have rotating 3d engine and/or real-time combat, I would still give it a chance even if I'd be forced to call Feargie a fucking pussy for the rest of his life.

[EvoG]

I noticed one common element with arguments usually against a certain feature, especially 'why' 3D sucks over 2D...you guys( no one in particular ) are able to take ONE concept and misconstrue it to actually sound like validation for your arguments...and it 'almost' makes sense...but they don't.

Examples :

"I hate 3D cameras because I walk into a room and the camera flips around facing me in the wrong direction and I get killed"

or

"Console games always get slammed for their 3D camera therefore ALL cameras that are 3D suck"

Come on....is this the '3D camera' or the particular GAME? Phoenix's camera stays where you put it until you chose to move it for a better viewing angle...so this argument is valid ONLY in that particular game you played. Therefore, 3D cameras aren't the problem, its the control and implementation in a particular game that is the problem. Regardless of your feelings about NWN or DS as games ( I've personally played and finished both ), the cameras worked perfectly fine...so the '3D camera sucks' arguments hold no value in a vacuum.

Just to elaborate on the 3D engine...we're building these little worlds that are just glorious to look at...YOU WILL WANT to rotate and zoom the view to soak it all in...its wonderful. Sure if the graphics are shitty, who cares, fine... but, when have you NOT wanted to just absorb the game world when the world is alive and detailed and beautiful? I think you guys can hold down one small button and move the mouse without straining yourselves too much...and I don't think the camera will get you killed in a TB game :wink: , think about it.

As for Feargus wanting a 3D engine...who the fuck can blame him...I want to play Fallout in a 3D world ( hence Phoenix's existence )...and as for realtime gameplay, I play every type of game in the world...literally, so if he makes it FUN...who gives a shit. This whole focus on games being TB or RT or 2D or 3D is silly....I mean honestly. Its a fricking game, if its fun its just fun. If a developer fucks something up, its not he 'somethings' fault...its the developers fault for poor implementation.

Hell, I'm going to go and throw realtime in Phoenix now just because you guys oppose it soooo much. HA!

Oh well....

Cheers ( ...its actually on tv right now as I write this )

[axelgreese]

I noticed one common element with arguments usually against a certain feature, especially 'why' 3D sucks over 2D...you guys( no one in particular ) are able to take ONE concept and misconstrue it to actually sound like validation for your arguments...and it 'almost' makes sense...but they don't.

well you almost didn't piss me off, but not quite.

Examples :

"I hate 3D cameras because I walk into a room and the camera flips around facing me in the wrong direction and I get killed"

or

"Console games always get slammed for their 3D camera therefore ALL cameras that are 3D suck"

Come on....is this the '3D camera' or the particular GAME? Phoenix's camera stays where you put it until you chose to move it for a better viewing angle...so this argument is valid ONLY in that particular game you played. Therefore, 3D cameras aren't the problem, its the control and implementation in a particular game that is the problem. Regardless of your feelings about NWN or DS as games ( I've personally played and finished both ), the cameras worked perfectly fine...so the '3D camera sucks' arguments hold no value in a vacuum.

I hate being misquoted. 3D camera handling is a common error in console games, thus if I was trying to explain to people why messing with cameras is bad (which i was) it'd be a good idea to point out some of the worst ways to handle it. And it seemed odd that console munchkins knew something about gameplay that pc gamers didn't.

Just to elaborate on the 3D engine...we're building these little worlds that are just glorious to look at...YOU WILL WANT to rotate and zoom the view to soak it all in...its wonderful.

Oh you're making a fps? I thought you were making a rpg... Cause in a fps I like to be immersed in the game world by the graphics and prett colors and sounds and all that toss. But in an rpg i like to be immersed by the pretty words and story. Graphics mean poop. It's nice to have good graphics in an rpg, but it's just a selling gimmick.

Sure if the graphics are shitty, who cares, fine... but, when have you NOT wanted to just absorb the game world when the world is alive and detailed and beautiful?

Alive an detailed IN words IN story. Being immersed by the graphics is fps type thing.

I think you guys can hold down one small button and move the mouse without straining yourselves too much

Once again effort is not the point, hassel is. I dont' want to fuck around with a camera. I don't care about fancy angles. I don't care about pretty colors. For me it has no way of enhanceing gameplay only hindering gameplay. For example, a valid reason for the free floating camera in Dark Reign 2 was the tactical means of hiding troops under cliffhangs and what not, but they screwed the camera management up so badly it sucked and furthermore if I'm playing an rts I'm try to feel immersed as mangeing an army, so that's what I'm doing, and i dont' want to worry about the freaking camera, some people may like the tactical gameplay elements of a movable camera but for me it was just a hassel.

...and I don't think the camera will get you killed in a TB game :wink: , think about it.

Yeah it'll just be an annoyance.
Sorry if this seems harsh but I'm a little pissed off.

[Doyle]

Oh you're making a fps? I thought you were making a rpg... Cause in a fps I like to be immersed in the game world by the graphics and prett colors and sounds and all that toss. But in an rpg i like to be immersed by the pretty words and story. Graphics mean poop. It's nice to have good graphics in an rpg, but it's just a selling gimmick.

Oh, come on. Now you're just being contrary. Graphics are never a negative unless the rest of the game suffers because of the time spent on graphics.

Sorry if this seems harsh but I'm a little pissed off.

Liar, you're just an asshole.

[axelgreese]

Oh, come on. Now you're just being contrary. Graphics are never a negative unless the rest of the game suffers because of the time spent on graphics.

Yeah it's not a bad thing, but it is just a gimmick. If there is no need for INSANE!! graphics why spend the time and effort? I'd rather they put the time and effort into important things.

Sorry if this seems harsh but I'm a little pissed off.

Liar, you're just an asshole.

So sue me.

[EvoG]

Actually I wanted this statment to be general...for everyone. Keep in mind I'm not arguing with you or anyone, but, I've heard this all before, you just 'inspired' me to make mention of it. I'm not misquoting you mainly because I never intended to quote you...or I would've used the quote box...so to get "pissed" is a tad extreme, no? The simple fact is that what Feargus and myself are referring to with our 3D cameras is NOT a 3rd person game, where console cameras are NOTORIOUSLY horrible, but rather 3/4 viewpoint cameras. Anyway...to say that 3D cameras SUCK because they blow in console games is 'GENERALIZING'...to say, THAT is why "messing with cameras is bad" is a poor argument to validate your opinion. Its apples and oranges. If you gave an example of how say, DS's or NWN's cameras impeded your ability to play those games, you would have a valid argument, but to compare a shitty 3rd person camera on a console game to a 3/4 top down camera in a PC game is an unfair way to justify your opinion that indeed, 3D cameras suck because they suck in console games. Is that a run-on sentence? Haha...anyway, do you see my point? I'm being civil here... :)

One comment caught my eye...'Graphics in an rpg are a selling gimmick?' Do you honestly believe this? I'm not being confrontational, but thats a tad ridiculous. Why in the hell would we 'chose' to look at poor graphics if we can have great graphics along with a great story? Why equate great graphics to shoddy gameplay? Bump mapping I would argue is a 'selling gimmick', as they are a subset of graphics that don't add to the gameplay, whereas graphics DO add to the visual immersion. But to say good quality art is a gimmick is laughable...I'm sorry. Humans are visual by nature...this is not an opinion, its fact. We love art, movies, comic books, the great paintings on the cover of PnP RPG's. Role playing games on a computer extend the worlds we visit with great graphics. All I hear from you people is how beautiful these dated 2D engines look...yet, graphics are unimportant?

Now just to make it very clear to everyone....story is very important, but, I see the whole package as equal parts of the sum. Though we hope to deliver a story you finicky people think is interesting, with lots of interaction with the game world, I also want to make absolute sure that it is a visually stunning place to visit. I'm not making a PnP game, I'm making a computer game.

Actually you know what....what I wanted to really say overall is that I think its silly for everyone to get so hot under the collar about a games viewpoint, 2D engine, 3D engine, locked camera, free camera, pretty graphics, shitty graphics...BEFORE the game is even in development...this is all entirely too ridiculous to debate. I know everyone agrees that if the game is fun its just fun...plain and simple.

My partner had an interesting observation....you people are BASHING the guy who was a large part of delivering the world of Fallout, which you so desperately cherish...don't you sorta think that if you really loved what he gave you in the past that he just might know what he's doing to give you something fresh and equally exciting in the future? He also added that really, NO other industry( he cited the bike and car industry ) frowns upon innovation and lives in the past. I drive a pretty awesome sports car..and I can't WAIT to see what the auto maker comes up with for the next years model and so forth. Sure maybe thats a poor example only because lots of people have their favorite year car and may not want to see change, but I think you get my point. I want to see new stuff. Innovation.

You guys have taken such complete ownership of the Fallout series that its BLASPHEMOUS for even Feargus to dare mention making innovative changes to the Fallout series. Just to protect that statement, if he does NOT innovate the RT combat, and it is a click fest, I will have to agree with you...but if he cares as much about Fallout as you all do, I'd like to believe that he would do it some justice in its newest incarnation.

You know what...this isn't directed at you, Payne, or anyone...I'm just expressing some thoughts. I'm done. :)

Cheers

[Mad Max RW]

I for one thought the camera control in Incubation was brilliant. Ground Control was damn good, too. It all depends what games you play. Sounds like you found some shitty ones.

[Doyle]

You guys have taken such complete ownership of the Fallout series that its BLASPHEMOUS for even Feargus to dare mention making innovative changes to the Fallout series. Just to protect that statement, if he does NOT innovate the RT combat, and it is a click fest, I will have to agree with you...but if he cares as much about Fallout as you all do, I'd like to believe that he would do it some justice in its newest incarnation.

There's a big difference between innovation and changes for the Hell of it. RT has been done in RPGs -- and RPGs by BIS no less -- so I have trouble classifying it as innovation.

Also, the man most directly responsible for Fallout is Tim Cain, not Feargus, and if you examine Tim's ideas about Fallout and Feargus's there's a big distinction. This is a real example, albeit paraphrased:

Tim wants to explore the ethics of a post-nuclear society

Feargus wants a 3d engine because a minigun would look "fricken cool"

That may be a bit unfair because they were talking about completely different subjects at the time, but it gives you an example of how the two men weight aspects of game design differently.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

If you gave an example of how say, DS's or NWN's cameras impeded your ability to play those games, you would have a valid argument

DS = DungeonSiege? IIRC DungeonSiege's camera would barely allow you to look up, if there were badguys on a level above you, you'd have to zoom the camera out until you could see them. Even then you wouldn't always be able to move the camera out far enough. Don't get me wrong I loved DungeonSeige (though I wouldn't agree that it's an RPG) but that feature was another nail in the coffin for using archers.

[EvoG]

Well, keep in mind that in Dungeon Siege, or any game intended for 'top-down' play, the camera isn't supposed to allow you to 'look up'. This isn't the fault of the games camera, but rather the way it was implemented. Not speaking for DS or NWN, but the reason our camera is a 'top down' camera, is for world detail. The more the player is able to pitch the camera up, the more world he sees, exponentially, to the point where he/she can see the horizon. At that point, you're drawing a HELL of a lot of objects and polys...that or the stupid fog which is awful. So we limit how far you can pitch the camera, from straight down to about 50' degrees pitch, so we maximize the world detail in that 'view' because we never have to worry about vast drawing distances. This equates to more accurate z buffer and almost next to no overdraw, which in turn equals very detailed worlds to explore.

No DS is not an RPG as Diablo is not an RPG, no argument there. :)

Cheers

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Well, keep in mind that in Dungeon Siege, or any game intended for 'top-down' play, the camera isn't supposed to allow you to 'look up'. This isn't the fault of the games camera, but rather the way it was implemented.

Sorry I don't see the difference between a crap camera system and poor implementation, both have the same result a ruined game. And if you have a game intended for top down play why bother having a moveable camera in the first place? Not that I'd agree that DungeonSiege was a top-down game, since it was in a 3D environment and featured multi-level combat the fact you couldn't see where attacks were coming from, even by zooming all the way out was a serious flaw.

[Mr Carrot]

name me one decent fully 3d RPG?

You cant because so much time and money gets spent on making things look good that you have fuck all left to make a game. Torn took so long because they couldnt get the graphics up to a PASSABLE standard for a new game. They could have done it with a 2d engine.

Besides newer 2d/3d mix engines like the commandos 2 engine show just how much more gorgeous you can make a game look, especially from an overhead persepctive. If im playing an all 3d game its like im playing a 3rd person shooter NOT an RPG.

[EvoG]

Okay people..lets stay in context of the conversation.

The camera being 3D didn't make it poor for you, it was the fact that the designers chose not to allow you to pitch upward very far. This is in context of what I've been arguing in my '3D cameras suck' rebute. Its not the fact that the cameras thus the game, is 3D, but that designers do stupid things with their cameras that make them frustrating, but not because they are 3D.

As for Dungeon Siege not looking up...I explained this already as to why they didn't allow full 'look around' freedom...and to be honest, I don't recall a time in the game when I was attacked from above by archers, but I could be mistaken. In that case, yes, they shouldn't have allowed any enemy to attack you that you could not see. Again, poor implementation, not the fault of '3D'.

Keep in mind that my argument is focused on the aspect of 2D versus 3D engines for RPG's, where the cameras have been criticised which is why '3D cameras are evil'. My whole case has been that they have been just fine...at the same time they have been horrible. Great example is Grand Theft Auto 3, one of my all time favorite games. The PS2 version has HORRIBLE camera control, but the PC version makes it absolutely brilliant. Both 3D, both diferent implementations. Dungeon Siege's camera is great. NWN's camera is great.

Dungeon Siege is of course top down. Your view is restricted to looking 'down' on your players. NWN, Age of Mythology, Fallout, Populous, Syndicate series, Starcraft, ToEE, Lionheart, Phoenix, are all top down games as opposed to 3rd or 1st person games. You view the game world from a 'birds eye' view, up TOP looking DOWN. Being in a 3D environment or having multiple levels doesn't change the fact that the camera is STILL looking downward.

[Megatron]

I think camera control is ok so long as it isn't to fiddly or the game requires you to alter your view. A few recent rts have an ok camera system, but it's annoying if something goes around a building, you tilt the camera to far then can't get back to your original view.

I wouldn't mind 3d. So long as the artists/modellers chose to make good models insead of relying on particle effects and other fancy crap to cover-up pointy models with low-detail skins.

I'm not sure about a full fallout world to explore. Morrowinds seemed huge, but that was just an island with a lot of mountains. Fallout is at least a whole state. Plus most of it's probably desert, and a 3rd person perspective has less detail than 1st person, so a lot of it could be wasted and pointless. If they added lots of 'monuments' and intresting scenery though, it could be pretty good.