Feargus speaks the bad talk again

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:17 am

Hi Rosh! Long time no hear. Well I just counted, and I have 5 buttons, the wheel and full X AND Y movement. :)

Arguably, most users may have the now standard 3 button mice, and I hardly consider 33% a "good chunk" of the mouse.

...and to my friend Payne...

Lastly, X and Y are not buttons...you want to use X and Y for more useful things? Like what? Moving the cursor? I didn't get your point. Saint was arguing we could use that precious button for other things like bringing up your skill use menu...but X and Y? How's X and Y being exclusively relegated to one task with this system? Whether you 'move' the mouse to postion your cursor, or move the mouse when you're rotating the camera, I don't see the distinction. Arguably, FPS's are the camera systems that limit the usage of X and Y since they are exclusively assigned to JUST moving the camera on a permanent basis for the most part, unless there is yet another button that is used to maybe halt the camera movement temporarily and allowing the cursor to appear to interact with the world, as in some more adventure oriented first person games.

I think we can give up the whole 'mouse is encumbered' argument with regards to the camera, when christ kids, we have 100+ keys on the damn keyboard. We are so old school, I guess we forgot that all the early, wonderfully nostalgic rpgs were played with just the keyboard. Shit, Ultima, I think, managed to use every letter key.

This is just nitpicky shit....Doyle hit it on the head, if this was an action rpg, I might be inclined to agree with you...but since you all are perfectly comfortable hitting the ALT key, then I think you can hit other keys. :wink:

Lets get over it... :)

Sending Love!!

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:17 am

EvoG wrote:Hi Rosh! Long time no hear. Well I just counted, and I have 5 buttons, the wheel and full X AND Y movement. :)

Arguably, most users may have the now standard 3 button mice, and I hardly consider 33% a "good chunk" of the mouse.

Arguably, that's still shitty design. We could go on all day about the letters of the alphabet that Ultima used, except you might forget one thing. That wasn't in a menu-based system, nor was it in a 3d environment.

Here, let me solve your design flaw instead of cluttering up your interface AND it'll leave you more potential functions for your mouse controls.

Make the mouse look dependent to a held keyboard key, preferably something close to the default movements keys (usually arrows), Ctrl, or if they are remapped by the user to the keypad, it could be Ins or whatever they want. They would control the movement of the camera with the mouse/trackball wheel. Another key could optionally be for zoom, or the scrollwheel could be used for those who have them.

It doesn't remove the ability for a right-click menu, a left-click operation, and still leaves support for those who might not have the "standard" 3 button mice. Plus it keeps the camera controls from fucking up as they accidentally hit the wrong mouse button as the scrollwheel is often used for zoom and mashing two mouse buttons at the same time is an annoying thing. If you were going to use the middle mouse button, most mice/trackballs put the middle button in the scrollwheel, so that would be a poor choice to use. The right-mouse button has far too much design potential to be used as a sub-menu or function change button that it would be silly to waste it as a camera control.

By leaving it to a held keyboard toggle, it also puts the controls out of the way until the user needs to move it around to compensate for whatever design brainfuck the developers made.

There, much better. Design flaw solved.

*pats EvoG on the head*

Don't worry, you're still learning.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:41 am

Rosh wrote:*pats EvoG on the head*

Don't worry, you're still learning.

Who ever said my controls weren't entirely configurable?

*taps side of forhead with index finger several times, nods and winks at Rosh*

Do some thinking first before you speak kiddo :wink:

Still sending love :)

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:07 pm

EvoG wrote:
*taps side of forhead with index finger several times, nods and winks at Rosh*

Do some thinking first before you speak kiddo :wink:

And the winner for weakest dodge goes to...YOU! If you're going to accuse someone of not thinking, you may want to take the opportunity to do so yourself.

Let's dice this down.

A mouse look done with a right mouse button would be rather misplaced as it takes away a full operation to keep things simple. For example, the mode toggle for Fallout, the aim toggle on Jagged Alliance 2, etc. You would be sacrificing the utility of the right mouse button in order for camera controls. Now, if your layout is shitty enough to require camera movement every 5 seconds in a 3rd-person game, then by all means, keep it to the right mouse button.

A central button mouse-look would be misplaced as it would hinder the use of the aforementioned middle button/mousewheel combinations. One of the high points that people look forward to in a 3d game, often to get around part of the clunky graphics presentation, is a zoom function of some sort. Now, you might say the Y axis can be used for depth, but that is annoying as hell to manage depth at the same time you're using the same control to do X rotation on a fixed height. That was one of the big things I've noticed over the years and have noticed that very few at all use that method for that very fact. If it's not going to have a zoom, then I might see where using the middle mouse might have some relevence, but it still wouldn't be too popular. Holding a button on the mouse while moving it, picking it up, and then moving the mouse again (even releasing it when you pick it up) - or move+hold, drag back with button released, then hold and drag again, leads to some very convoluted controls and can be annoying as well as. The way that is alleviated is with a trackball, and not everyone owns one of them.

If you have it to a fourth or even a fifth mouse button, well, more on that in a bit.

Survey says, it's pretty retarded to put the held-look controls on the mouse in the first place unless it is in an inherent mouselook, which is for a FP environment. That results in a situation that would require a majority of people (read: not you) would have to rebind their keys at best. Which is a bad thing in interface design.

Then I could also mention that some things are far too inherent to an interface than switching around key binds, kiddo. Oh, wait, I already have.

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:06 pm

POINT = ROSH
SPANKED = STEVE

Steve, listen to Rosh or your game will suck.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:39 pm

You could still use the right mouse button for a quick menu and camera movement. In Fallout, for example, a quick click switches to the menu, but clicking and holding the button "locks" the cursor in places and switches the X and Y axes to a camera movement mode. You might use that for rotation and zoom, while other camera movements -- ie scrolling the screen -- would be just like in Fallout. Then the problem is solved using only one button, and you still retain the right-click menu, or whatever you want to do with it.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:44 pm

EvoG wrote:...and to my friend Payne...

Lastly, X and Y are not buttons...

When you mentioned that the control was in one button, I thought to myself "that's impossiable" but then I decided that what you ment was that the one key was a toggle function which switched the x and y axises purpose, which I think is a common practise in 3d views. So I just contributed that to Rosh's post /shrug

you want to use X and Y for more useful things?

When did I say that? Or right, you do make a lot assumptions, in fact it looks like the rest of your post is based on the assumption that i said something that I didn't. So I won't bother to comment on it.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:35 pm

Doyle, the King of Not Reading.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:33 pm

Obviously.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:57 pm

Andy, you're an antagonist...stfu

...Rosh, I 'think' I understand your point...which would make sense, but I have no idea where you got your information. The way the controls in Phoenix work in regards to the camera is this : hold down middle mouse button and move mouse to pitch and yaw camera. You can look straight down or pitch to an angle of about 60', and you can yaw 360' obviously. Zoom is completely on the wheel. I don't see a problem. Honestly, how in the world is that shitty design? Both left and right buttons are free for world interaction and menu selection. You almost never even have to use the keyboard if you don't want to.

I can't believe we're having a discussion about my controls when I haven't even really talked about them nor have you used them. Plus, this isn't a terribly original design element...its been used on other games before just fine...

These controls couldn't be any more simple.

....oh and my comment was hardly a dodge...you were derisive, so I replied in like. You passed judgement on something(my controls) you know nothing about, and as if you were in some position of authority(interface designer) on the matter. You gave a clear description of key remapping...so my reply stands...not all people share the same desire of choice of keys, so they're are free to move them whereever they like. A key remapping option is NOT a poor design cure, its actually a desired feature...for those who NEED to change the keys for whatever reason.

...and Payne, you obviously understand what I was talking about. Good. I don't know where I assumed anything though. I just took the context of your initial comment which implied that X and Y would be sacrificed for camera movements, which, would be the case in context of what Saint and I were talking about, which is the sacrificing of vital mouse funtionality to a dedicated task...not mulitasked. No assumption. :)

That love...its....its still there...

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:21 am

Steve, I just find all these discussions pretty funny. It's good to see a developer able to stand up to the likes of Saint and Rosh. Just make sure you're not too stubborn to see their good points. Though you've got to forgive Rosh and Saint's stubbornness that's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Bulldog · Post by **Bulldog** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:46 am

paynetothemax wrote: When did I say that? Or right, you do make a lot assumptions, in fact it looks like the rest of your post is based on the assumption that i said something that I didn't. So I won't bother to comment on it.

No, you didn't explicitly say that but it's the meaning of your post, even if that's not what you intended. It's almost embarrassing to call you a member of this community, given the things you've said in this thread.

You have no clue about how games are made, it had to be explained to you that an artist is only going to work on art. The fact that there are also people that ONLY work on the story went completely over your head.

Every time you talk it's just to nit pick some aspect of a person's post, going completely overboard with a ludicrous strawman argument to make yourself appear intelligent. When someone calls you on it your response is:

"It's my job to be an asshole LOL"

It's people like you who completely retard development because you perceive one or two flaws and get so hooked up on them it's all you talk about. OH NO YOU MIGHT HAVE TO TAKE A COUPLE MINUTES LEARNING A NEW CONTOL SYSTEM GOOD GOD. You're in an rpg for the long run anyway, suck it up.

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:45 pm

EvoG wrote:The way the controls in Phoenix work in regards to the camera is this : hold down middle mouse button and move mouse to pitch and yaw camera. You can look straight down or pitch to an angle of about 60', and you can yaw 360' obviously. Zoom is completely on the wheel. I don't see a problem. Honestly, how in the world is that shitty design? Both left and right buttons are free for world interaction and menu selection. You almost never even have to use the keyboard if you don't want to.

I presume there's a way to remap that, for those of us with 2 button mouses (mice?) and no wheel.

Bulldog wrote:You have no clue about how games are made, it had to be explained to you that an artist is only going to work on art. The fact that there are also people that ONLY work on the story went completely over your head.

GRRRR!
See, that's not always the way.

http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features ... oore.shtml

Chad Moore, Arcanum Artist wrote:I was hired on as an artist, and I did a few monsters, and a couple of PC body types. I also worked for a month or so on one of our movies. For the last six months or so, I've done nothing but design, dialogue and scripting, as well as the occasional installment of Arcanum Tales.

http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features ... rson.shtml

Jason Anderson, Arcanum Artist wrote:I spend most of my time torn between being a designer and an artist. I initially spent the majority of my time doing artwork; wall-sets, ground tiles, interface and such. Lately I've been spending a lot of time designing the tech schematic system, fine tuning the interface and balancing different things in the game like currency and experience points. I also just got voted in as being the person that yells "NO!" at the other team members and slaps them down when they want to implement complex new ideas that would delay game completion. Oh joy.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/090/090576p1.html

Chad Moore again wrote:Typical day here at Troika Games. I, Chad Moore, computer graphics and animation specialist, am slaving away over the dialogue script of one of the many characters in Arcanum. One might ask: Dialogue? Isn't that a designer's job? Well, yes it is. And so is the scripting that I often do, as well as the writing of various documents concerning character development, back story and location descriptions. To tell you the truth, I haven't loaded up a 3D package in the last 9 months. Have any of you out there played football? Well, what we're doing here at Troika might be called "platoon" football, or "playing both ways." If there's a job to be done around here, then someone's got to do it. And although I do miss the graphics work, I must admit that learning how to design an RPG has been very enlightening. Sometimes it's almost enjoyable. It's also frustrating as hell.

Graphics vs Design.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:57 pm

Darkunderlord....sure you can remap, but I'm curious...and I'm not being funny nor condescending...but is there any reason you haven't purchased a now standard wheel mouse? You can honestly get a 3 button/wheel mouse for 2 bucks ( US$ ). TWO DOLLARS!! No joke...go to pricewatch. I mean hell, you can get a Microsoft Optical mouse with all sorts of buttons and the wheel for 12 dollars. I don't believe they even make mice without the wheel anymore...again, considering you can get the wheel mouse for $2.00.

...or you're messing with me... :)

Oh and to comment about dual purpose team members...they do exist, but its not the norm. I've worn and still wear many hats, but thats at the individual level. Someone may come in is as an art guy and end up having a penchant for say, dialog writing, so they get to multitask. BUT!! This doesn't work in the reverse as easily...designers may be artistic by nature, so they'll do art...but writers and programmers are on a completely different spectrum, and can't just be 'reassigned' to do art.

Most of my employees and others I've worked with through clients have been single purpose for the most part. Arguably its awesome to get talented individuals that can do other tasks and sometimes employers will outright ask for prerequisites as such...like "Must be able to model, texture, animate and light your cgi cutscenes for game x,y,z". Again, though, like any other job, people are hired for one task and usually they excel at that one task.

The original argument that making great graphics would steal the resources of the 'gameplay' team and sacrifice substance is untrue, since doing graphics is not a trivial task. In fact, ironically enough, your three examples are all from artists being taken away from art and reassigned to substance, which would be more the case than the reverse.

Cheers

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:26 pm

If the game says something like "Requires monitor to play" they'll still find a reason to bitch.

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:41 am

EvoG wrote:Darkunderlord....sure you can remap, but I'm curious...and I'm not being funny nor condescending...but is there any reason you haven't purchased a now standard wheel mouse?

Nope, I'm not messing with you. I've never used a wheel before and don't see any reason to buy a new mouse just so I can use one. Essentially, my care factor for buying a new mouse is somewhere around ground level. It's something I never think of. "I need a new mouse with a wheel" just isn't a thought that pops into my head.

Now an optical mouse... There's a thought. But it's like one of those new Microsoft keyboards with the "home page" keys and what not up the top. I don't use them, so don't buy them. I actually avoid those keyboards believe it or not... I hate extra buttons. It's like a phobia or something. They just put buttons there. WHY DAMMIT!? WHAT'S SO HARD WITH PRESSING THE HOME PAGE BUTTON!? WHY DO WE NEED A KEY FOR IT!!? But that's going off track a little...

Then again, I don't have a credit card, so can't buy any of the cheap online stuff.

There you go, that's the three mice (mouses?) I have. The incentive to buy is small when you've got enough that work. Hmm.... Now a nice new clean mouse mat might be in order...

Mad Max RW wrote:If the game says something like "Requires monitor to play" they'll still find a reason to bitch.

Speaking of monitors... Would it help that if I told you I have three computers.

- A 486 hooked up to a 17 inch monitor running Windows 3.1 and Dos 6.11
- A Pentium 200 hooked up to a 19 inch monitor running Windows '95 (this is also the computer hooked up to the internet)
- A Duron 850 hooked up to a 15 inch monitor running Windows '98

So the slowest computer I have actually has a better monitor than the newsest one... Go figure, huh? Actually, the 486 also has the three button mouse...

Just to show how l33+ I am, I'll split your last paragraph up into three.

EvoG wrote:The original argument that making great graphics would steal the resources of the 'gameplay' team and sacrifice substance is untrue,

It does, if, as a result of blowing the budget on 20 great artists, you can only afford to hire one bloke off the street to work on the story, as opposed to 10 artists and 10 story developers. I'm arguing that anything takes resources. If you have $5 million from a publisher to make a game, a certain amount of that has to be spent on:

- Programmers
- Artists
- Offices and Office management
- Tools and equipment

Spending any amount of money on one, and not on another, means sacrifice. You could spend the money on renting a couple of floors of the Trump Tower in New York. As a result, you'll have less to spend on any of the other groups. On the other hand, you could save money and setup in someone's garage for free, leaving more money for programmers etc...

Stopping at just that example, you have the extremes. One company with fantasic offices, but low paid "cheap" programmers and a few artists to make a game, because they blew the budget on the offices. The other company with well paid artists and programmers, but they have to deal with coming to work to someone's shed every day.

To say sacrifices aren't made is untrue. Surely, as a company, there are things you've had to spend money on instead of other things, because you quite simply NEEDED something more than something else? Perhaps you had to forgo the new 21 inch flat-screen monitors for everyone and buy faster computers instead? Either way, sacrifices are made. If you aren't making any sacrifices, you must have an unlimited budget.

Need vs want. Do we want great graphics, or do we NEED them? Do we need the $90,000 a year fantastic artist so we can have great graphics? Or is it better to hire two average guys at $45,000 a year? Or one average artist and another allrounder?

EvoG wrote:since doing graphics is not a trivial task.

In an RPG, storyline isn't either. It's about balance. Balancing the team so that you have the programmers you need to do the job, the artists you need to design the graphics and the people working on the story. Tipping the scales in favour of artists is okay for a game where graphics are everything (FPS for example, or even hiring Carmack to make your graphics engine). Tipping it the way of the programmers might be for a game where art is less important, and gameplay is everything (Railroad Tycoon or a stock market game perhaps?). Tipping it in favour of story development is important for story driven games. Games that are bought and sold based on how good their story is (RPGs used to fit in here).

EvoG wrote:In fact, ironically enough, your three examples are all from artists being taken away from art and reassigned to substance, which would be more the case than the reverse.

Actually, I was waiting for someone to say "So that's why Arcanum has shitty graphics!". Great gameplay and story though.

If you truly have the budget to afford all the things you want, go for it.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:54 am

Well, I'll keep reminding you every now and then to buy a wheel mouse. No, in fact I'll use 'my' credit cards :) and buy you one and even customize it with Phoenix's real name and logo. One of a kind.

Anyway, when you use an optical 5 button mouse enough...you miss not being able to move backwards and forwards in your browser or being able to scroll through stuff when you have to use a 2 button mouse. You don't THINK you need it, and technically you don't, but they are far more efficient...the buttons are not placed there for fun.

As for your examples about spending...well hell, those aren't sacrifices, those are blantant misuse of resources. Anyone(Ion Storm) who blows money on penthouse office space maybe should reassess their priorities. Thats not how it works either and not what I meant. Companies DO do this, and are very misguided in their priorities. I'm not going to restart the graphics vs. substance argument because they both can and have existed together in truely wonderful games...so I'm never going to agree with anyone who thinks graphics somehow saps substance by its inherent nature. Its not the graphics...its the managment.

I will say this, if you do have the money surplus above employee costs, I'd argue in favor of a nice office space because that naturally attracts the better talent and makes the work environment pleasant. So it just all boils down to managment...managing your wants vs. needs.

Oh and I never said creating a solid RPG storyline was trivial, I was merely keeping in context of the conversation, which was managing graphics resources. :wink:

MADMAX : You last post was some funny shit. :)

Cheers

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:04 am

Bulldog wrote:No, you didn't explicitly say that but it's the meaning of your post, even if that's not what you intended.

Oh okay.

It's almost embarrassing to call you a member of this community, given the things you've said in this thread.

I'm just a known spammer, I not a member of the community.

You have no clue about how games are made, it had to be explained to you that an artist is only going to work on art. The fact that there are also people that ONLY work on the story went completely over your head.

I only know what I've read/heard/whatever if those facts are incorrect, well that's my loss, and that's why I was so quick to ask Mr.EvoG questions. But I guess I'd heard too many things about artist working on the story as well as the art (much like I figured coders would do the same, seems silly to me to hire a professional writer who knows nothing about coding or art, and that's all he does is write, but I could be wrong on that). Oh well.

Every time you talk it's just to nit pick some aspect of a person's post,

I dont have anything better to do. /shrug

going completely overboard with a ludicrous strawman argument

I do like to argue, perferably to pointless worthless silly trival things.

to make yourself appear intelligent.[/quote[

Where'd you get that? Most everything I do makes me look stupid.

When someone calls you on it your response is:

"It's my job to be an asshole LOL"
Yes. What's the problem? Being obnoxious is a personallty trait I do exhibt. I'm not going to deny it just because I don't like the sound of it.

It's people like you who completely retard development because you perceive one or two flaws and get so hooked up on them it's all you talk about.
Somethings are just annoying, like camera control. Like realtime with pause. Like elevator music. Alot of things I don't pay much attention to because I don't care about them, others do I don't. But there are somethings I do care about. Like having the annoyance to manipulate a camera.

OH NO YOU MIGHT HAVE TO TAKE A COUPLE MINUTES LEARNING A NEW CONTOL SYSTEM GOOD GOD.
OMG!!! oh noez!!! I must learn a control system I already know!!! How can that be!?!? Once again I never said I don't know how to do it or am incapable of managing a camera but the sheer annoyance bothers me. I'll most likly swallow it when Pheonix comes out (because nobody's perfect) but still I'd rather the flaws were in areas I cared less about.

You're in an rpg for the long run anyway, suck it up.
I guess I have to back to playing NeverWinter Nights then? And just suck it up?

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:46 am

heh, you don't realize how lucky you are EvoG is taking the time to discuss his game here and maybe... just maybe... borrow some of your ideas. Developers have 2 options: 1. do everything the fans say or 2. make the game THEY WANT.

As a whole, the fans have no clue what the hell they want. When developers start listening to them you end up with a mess. If the masses praise Baldur's Gate you get a dozen Baldur's Gate sequels and spinoffs. That's when you get more watered down games like UT2k3 and all the other sequels in the world. It's what the whiny, dumbass fans want. But you always have people who hate the game because it wasn't made with each and every person in mind.

I say let EvoG make the game he wants. You might end up with something new for a change. Because once you start demanding a feature from one game and a feature from another, all you have is the same old shit. If you don't like controlling a camera then play Fallout a few hundred more times. Project Phoenix sure as hell isn't gonna be Fallout, so stop thinking it is.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:53 am

Like you said, Max, they'll bitch about anything.