Duck and Cover

inaneframe wrote:

TinyTeeth wrote::act on instinct: The prelude to fascism.

I'm sorry but the context eludes me.

Then you have misunderstood the ways of DAC. Fascism is always relevant.

TinyTeeth wrote:

inaneframe wrote:

TinyTeeth wrote::act on instinct: The prelude to fascism.

I'm sorry but the context eludes me.

Then you have misunderstood the ways of DAC. Fascism is always relevant.

Is there any kind of Wiki that I could read up on this shit or perhaps you could give me a lesson?

Learn the art of St. Toxic, learn the german of Thor Kaufman, and watch old nazi propaganda. Stay away from the Blargh though, it will give you diarehha.

I prefer the propaganda of WWII US. . . They were so much more thought out.

inaneframe wrote:I prefer the propaganda of WWII US. . . They were so much more thought out.

What are you drivelling about, the nazi propaganda is the best.
Everyone knows so.
Especially the movies by Leni Riefenstahl are absolutely splendid, of which <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7">Triumph des Willens </a> is probably the most famous.
Have a watch you cockmonger.

inaneframe wrote:

Icabod wrote:Proof they won't.

Proof they won't what? Ruin the series? Who knows, and it all depends on your angle. They are guaranteed not to please the hardcore Fallout elitists, I don't think anyone will be able to. I'll be happy if they are able to put out a quality game, if not a little disappointed by it's lack of adherence to the originals but an adherence to the originals, a good game does not make.

It looks as though they will stick to the feeling and the emotion of the originals or at the very least try. I think that that is the best we could hope for at the moment.

Mismatch wrote:Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion.
They sure as hell aren't RPG's.
The nicest thing one could say about them is FPS with RPG elements.
But seeing how the RPG elements in said games are bad at best, I'd go with labeling them FPS games.

Why all of this dogging on the Elder Scrolls series on this site? Sure, I hate the mini additions shop crap and it may not even deserve all of the recognition it is getting (maybe it does). The game, Oblivion, is about as solidly made of a game as could be expected and a Fallout fan throwing out cries of it being unfinished or burdened with bugs is ironic because as much as I love Fallout, it had bugs, a lot of them.

BTW RPGs were first-person before FPSs even had time to put on diapers, Oblivion is much more open ended than any other RPG that I have played since Fallout 2.

We don't criticize Oblivion for it's bugs, we criticize it for being the heap of shit that it is. Oblivion is not open ended, it just has a large variety of stuff to do. I guess that on the whole, us "hardcore" Fallout fans cannot stand it due to it's lack of intelligent dialogue. In fact, the game is completely fucking devoid of any intelligent dialogue whatsoever. Speaking from my own persepctive, one of the reasons for why I enjoyed was how you had so many different characters and personalities in Fallout. Unlike in Oblivion, you didn't have the same 3 voice actors repeating the same shit all over again, regardless of who they were meant to be. Didn't we all love all of Cassidy's different quotes? etc. My point being, if FO3 is going to be anything like Oblivion (maybe besides the engine), it's going to suck some major balls.

Mismatch wrote:

inaneframe wrote:I prefer the propaganda of WWII US. . . They were so much more thought out.

What are you drivelling about, the nazi propaganda is the best.
Everyone knows so.
Especially the movies by Leni Riefenstahl are absolutely splendid, of which <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7">Triumph des Willens </a> is probably the most famous.
Have a watch you cockmonger.

Watch this. Being a native of the Baltic, this is of especial interest to me (especially since 3 members of my family were in Waffen-SS). The women in the sauna said that torrentspy has this *hint hint*.
edit: my background <3
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5219 ... aluss7.jpg

Mismatch wrote:nazi propaganda

nazi propaganda

inaneframe wrote:BTW RPGs were first-person before FPSs even had time to put on diapers

It's a branching genre. Fallout adheres to purelly text-based rpg's and adventure games, where the biggest pnp inspiration is choice, words and puzzles. This is, by (I'd guess) most of us here, defined as the pure rpg model. Post text oriented games came the branch in the genre, with it's dungeon crawling and graphical representation, taking with it the pnp combat and skill managment as the core gameplay mechanic. This would by standard definition be the action rpg or arpg, as it relied mainly on killing a load of shit.

Now, while ye' fprpg's of olde' relied primarily on skills to get the job done, Oblivion has devalued skills to the point that they are of no real use. As such it has strayed from the arpg model, and can in fact stand to be called an fps or fpf.

inaneframe wrote:Oblivion is much more open ended than any other RPG that I have played since Fallout 2.

Open ended means that you can basicly skip to the end sequence from your first arrival into the game, either by going for the big bad guy straight away or completely ignoring the main quest until the game ends by itself. As far as I understand, you had to run around closing numerous stagnant portals to hell in order to do whatever, and prior to that initiate contact with numerous NPC's. That sounds rather linear and sequenced, if I'm to be asked.

TinyTeeth wrote:the ways of DAC = fascism is always relevant

We need Cleck in here to explain the basics.

inaneframe wrote:Is there any kind of Wiki that I could read up on this shit or perhaps you could give me a lesson?

As soon as someone brings this up, just say something Deutsches like "Mein Herren!" or "Izt die amerikaaaaaner! Sound die alaaaarm!" and always end with .

On that note, leave the Reich pics alone at least in this section of the forum. The Beth boys aren't all that used to forum politics even on a local scale, so anything to do with Nazi Germany would likely make them shit their pants.

We don't criticize Oblivion for it's bugs, we criticize it for being the heap of shit that it is. Oblivion is not open ended, it just has a large variety of stuff to do. I guess that on the whole, us "hardcore" Fallout fans cannot stand it due to it's lack of intelligent dialogue. In fact, the game is completely fucking devoid of any intelligent dialogue whatsoever. Speaking from my own persepctive, one of the reasons for why I enjoyed was how you had so many different characters and personalities in Fallout. Unlike in Oblivion, you didn't have the same 3 voice actors repeating the same shit all over again, regardless of who they were meant to be. Didn't we all love all of Cassidy's different quotes? etc. My point being, if FO3 is going to be anything like Oblivion (maybe besides the engine), it's going to suck some major balls.

Emil sounds like he understands that, and he claims that the rest of BethSoft understands this. However, we're not exactly in a position of power on this one. Oblivion sold well, was well received critically and is what people expect from BethSoft so on that end their hands are almost tied as far as what their approach can be to Fallout. I hope, that with all that good will or as Bush would call it ... that MANDATE, they go and do Fallout 'right'.

It's a branching genre. Fallout adheres to purelly text-based rpg's and adventure games, where the biggest pnp inspiration is choice, words and puzzles. This is, by (I'd guess) most of us here, defined as the pure rpg model. Post text oriented games came the branch in the genre, with it's dungeon crawling and graphical representation, taking with it the pnp combat and skill managment as the core gameplay mechanic. This would by standard definition be the action rpg or arpg, as it relied mainly on killing a load of shit.

Now, while ye' fprpg's of olde' relied primarily on skills to get the job done, Oblivion has devalued skills to the point that they are of no real use. As such it has strayed from the arpg model, and can in fact stand to be called an fps or fpf.

I love you, you curry eating son of a whore.

Open ended means that you can basicly skip to the end sequence from your first arrival into the game, either by going for the big bad guy straight away or completely ignoring the main quest until the game ends by itself. As far as I understand, you had to run around closing numerous stagnant portals to hell in order to do whatever, and prior to that initiate contact with numerous NPC's. That sounds rather linear and sequenced, if I'm to be asked.

You are correct, this is the GTA model of "freedom"

For all the side missions/distractions it offers. If you're intending to play some sort of meaningful role in the game world you'll find all your actions follow a linear path and the side missions aren't all that deep or meaningful.

Killzig wrote:I love you, you curry eating son of a whore.

Good for 1 blowjob?

and a reach around.

Killzig wrote:and a reach around.

Now we're talking!!

St. Toxic wrote:It's a branching genre. Fallout adheres to purelly text-based rpg's and adventure games, where the biggest pnp inspiration is choice, words and puzzles. This is, by (I'd guess) most of us here, defined as the pure rpg model. Post text oriented games came the branch in the genre, with it's dungeon crawling and graphical representation, taking with it the pnp combat and skill managment as the core gameplay mechanic. This would by standard definition be the action rpg or arpg, as it relied mainly on killing a load of shit.

Now, while ye' fprpg's of olde' relied primarily on skills to get the job done, Oblivion has devalued skills to the point that they are of no real use. As such it has strayed from the arpg model, and can in fact stand to be called an fps or fpf.

I can see what you are saying but how would you implement some of these pnp features in battle sequences within the realm of a fpRPG without still coming across as an aRPG? If they were to insert the GURPS rules and use the algorithms for emulation of the throw of dice within an aRPG in real time combat, almost a necessity for FP, how would it even be noticeable to the player? Would that make the experience more enjoyable? I can see them easily implementing the better use of skills within the Oblivion engine. That would not be a problem, I don't think.

inaneframe wrote:I can see what you are saying but how would you implement some of these pnp features in battle sequences within the realm of a fpRPG without still coming across as an aRPG?

Tough question. You have to shift the weight from player action to character action. Let's examine the adventure game standard input, say for example, DUCK goes into BARREL for whatever reason; the point isn't the actual insertion of the DUCK into the BARREL but the end result of it, so the action is automated and so shifts the weight from the player to the character ( the player need only bring those together ). A realtime fpf isn't just 'Use SWORD on BAD GUY', instead aiming for the battle as a priority and not the end result, thus making the action purelly player oriented.

Now, it's just a viewpoint so you could in fact make selectable battles happen ( I think at least one game has done that, like in some over the top tactical way ) but I don't really see the point of it. If it's realtime ( which it most likely is, if you're going for fp ) then you still have the factor of time and reflexes hanging over your head, and a turn-based fp enviroment does sound rather weird ( there's some folks modding Doom 3 into a tb post-apoc rpg by the way. unplayable piece of shit last I checked ) and 'clunky'.

So, at best, and this is wether it's realtime, turnbased ( good turn based ) or turn based ala Final Fantasy, you make combat 101% reliable on character skills. That way, whatever you do as the player, it'll go through a huge selective process to filter out most of your involvement. Bloodlines, for instance, did something like that, and the combat portion of the game wasn't that good; total skill reliability removes any point of directly controlling a character, while still making you run about and do pointless actions. So it pretty much defeats the point.

My conclusion is: you can't make a non-action fp rpg. A full 3d enviroment is basicly made to give the player a live-feed controll over his character, and it'll in likely all cases further the separation between character and player. I'd guess lowering the amount of combat in the game, so that it is below that of non-combat activities, might do the trick -- but again, if you want a game with focus primarily on speech, puzzles and managment, there's little good reason to make it fp.

inaneframe wrote:If they were to insert the GURPS rules and use the algorithms for emulation of the throw of dice within an aRPG in real time combat, almost a necessity for FP, how would it even be noticeable to the player?

Well, as previously explained, the amount of damage the opponent takes would be completely reliant on your character's skills. Furthermore, you'd likely find yourself shooting someone in the head or chopping someone's arm off without doing any damage to the opponent on several occasions. You being able to connect with a sword or aim straight with a gun is something that pnp rules ignore, seeing as your personal skills aren't ever considered upon. Things like that tend to annoy you, because it does give mixed signals to the brain. You hit but you miss, you did but you didn't. Say for instance that the lockpicking minigame in Ob actually relied on your character's skills, making the lockpicks move slowly or break without any real reason. You'd be furious. I'd be furious. FP simply warrants an input that pure rpg's aren't able to comply with.

inaneframe wrote:Would that make the experience more enjoyable?

It'd make it pretty fucking annoying.

inaneframe wrote:I can see them easily implementing the better use of skills within the Oblivion engine. That would not be a problem, I don't think.

Well, modders worked it in the right direction from the start, from what I have heard, by removing the level scaling. How skills handled after scaling was removed is beyond me. Oblivion could work with full skill imput, certainly, by blocking out some of the mini-games and of course working without level scaling, but wether it'd make the game better or worse I can't say. In vanilla Ob the skills work like bonuses, in the vein of GTA:SA -- it's not like you need to improve anything to be a tough opponent ( the mp servers proved that ) so it's skill optional ( basicly, your character is that tree guy from Tekken 3, and he's impersonating you ) which does create a huge gap between player and character.

St. Toxic wrote:Well, modders worked it in the right direction from the start, from what I have heard, by removing the level scaling. How skills handled after scaling was removed is beyond me. Oblivion could work with full skill imput, certainly, by blocking out some of the mini-games and of course working without level scaling, but wether it'd make the game better or worse I can't say. In vanilla Ob the skills work like bonuses, in the vein of GTA:SA -- it's not like you need to improve anything to be a tough opponent ( the mp servers proved that ) so it's skill optional ( basicly, your character is that tree guy from Tekken 3, and he's impersonating you ) which does create a huge gap between player and character.

Yeah see that was my biggest annoyance with Oblivion, the level scaling! It simply makes no sense. I loved how, in Fallout, I could come back and annihilate EVERYONE later on in the game, ok you're getting me excited and that Fallout 2 disc in my binder is looking quite tempting to me right now! Hell so is Arcanum, hehe. yeah make fun of the idiot, go ahead!

Nazis had the coolest uniforms and the best slogans. It's a pity they had to go off and do stupid horseshit like be at odds with America while we had that fellow-traveling cripple syndicalist traitor President in office. Ah well, kudos on the Jew and Slav murder. My only regret was that we didn't send them Hollywood

box wrote:Nazis had the coolest uniforms and the best slogans. It's a pity they had to go off and do stupid horseshit like be at odds with America while we had that fellow-traveling cripple syndicalist traitor President in office. Ah well, kudos on the Jew and Slav murder. My only regret was that we didn't send them Hollywood

Trotsky did some time in Hollywood.

yeah. 3 years for that bizarre, fatal accident during a gay bdsm choking game. involved whale fat and legless wenches too. wish that scene would be 'an egg' in f3.

Just Wanted to post this pic I made tonight, thought someone, somewhere, might like it?
But I know, I thought wrong;
It goes down the drain along with tubgirl's orange juice & dignity.



I know, I know, I must be incredibly naive to think that Bethesda wants and will seek our opinions. That being said, I cannot just give up and stand by idly...I need to feel like we might have a chance.

For many of us, this is a religious institution, where our worship is posting on forums, creating art, movies, mods and actually just playing the game for the hundredth time....we are scorned, mocked and belittled on any other forum except here and NMA (justly & mostly unjustly so). We have had no place to call home since 1997 and for many of us, a year or so earlier. We are the forgotten, but our piety remains solid...I for one have been away from these boards ever since Vault 13 closed it's doors, as I was almost too obsessed with the current state of gaming and dour over the future of Fallout. I still read the boards, but never post, as at arms length it seems more manageable. But with the upcoming game, I felt that it was necessary to speak out even if it were in vain (which I most assuredly feel it will be). This is our home, where we feel welcome...for me, when Fallout came out, it was almost a revelation...I had been obsessed with post-apocalyptic films, literature and cold-war era life, that it seemed too good to be true....I had played Wastelands back in the late eighties, but for some reason I was not into post-apoc then, so the mark was rather faint, but with Fallout, everything seemed perfect...a perfect game for a perfect genre...finally, fans got what they deserved! Anyway, that is my post, hopefully I will not be too char-broiled....Dia

What's a "fallout?" I just come here for the goatse spam.

Who's that in the blue?