Duck and Cover

MF wrote:
And Diablo 2 is a very, very 2D game. If you're stupid enough to think it's 3D just because there's a '3D mode' option in the menu that does nothing but create some weird parallax effect on the tiles and use your 3D hardware for flashy light-effects, you're a moron.

*goes off to have many children*

I never 'learned' to tell the difference. You can clearly see it. I can't see any polygons in Diablo 2. I can see sprites with limited directions. There you go, it's a 2D game.

Being able to tell the difference between a 2D and 3D engine is not an acquired skill. The point is knowing what you're talking about.

If you know what a 2D engine is, and you know what a 3D engine is, you can tell the difference. If you know what both are, and you can't tell the difference, you're a moron.

If you don't know, you're not a moron. It's not something you need in life, like being able to slice bread. Just don't talk about the benefits of a 3D engine when you don't even know what you're talking about.

One more thing : 3D perspective and a 3D engine are not the same thing.

By the way, there is also the logical 3D engine, like Fallout Tactics. It has a Z axis. But it's not graphically 3D. Graphically it's very 2D, and that is the point of discussion here.

wait... you mean to tell me we're not talking about the scary monkey show?

MF wrote:I never 'learned' to tell the difference. You can clearly see it. I can't see any polygons in Diablo 2. I can see sprites with limited directions. There you go, it's a 2D game.

Being able to tell the difference between a 2D and 3D engine is not an acquired skill. The point is knowing what you're talking about.

In order to know the difference between a sprite and a polygon, you need to know what one is.

You were not born with this knowledge.

You now have this knowledge.

Therefore, yes it IS an acquired skill and yes you DID learn it at some point.

If you know what a 2D engine is, and you know what a 3D engine is, you can tell the difference. If you know what both are, and you can't tell the difference, you're a moron.

No. There is a difference between knowing what something is and knowing how it works. In fact there are different levels of understanding within knowing how something works.

If you don't know, you're not a moron. It's not something you need in life, like being able to slice bread. Just don't talk about the benefits of a 3D engine when you don't even know what you're talking about.

I didn't and don't believe I need to understand the difference between the graphical rendering terms "sprite" and "polygon" to spot that a 2D game sells well, particularly when I stated that Diablo 2 had a 2D mode and admitted at the time I wasn't sure of its technical classification.

If I had made claims relating in some way to sprites or polygons, I could understand some of where you are coming from (if not your offensive manner). I didn't, so your criticism is entirely unjustified and your point entirely invalid. Either you didn't think it through, or you thought it through and for some reason (desire to belittle someone, for instance) came to the wrong conclusion.

Ironically, your own posts have been fairly moronic, in that they demonstrate a psychological immaturity. Specific symptoms:

• Being unable to share information with someone who doesn't have it without using it to bolster your ego.
• Assigning disproportionate value to your own knowledge over that of others.
• Pointlessly introducing offensive name-calling into a discussion.

While it may be true that the turn to 3D is a bit premature, it is still happening.
Also, I think most of the gaming press would disagree with BioWare rpg's suking. Every major publication has loved them. You are the exception, not the norm. Solipsisimm if you will.

The gaming press never give any releases from a major publisher bad write-ups any more. It's like gymnastics - the points scored range only between 8 and 10.

Allright friendly friend Crow, let me elaborate :

You said the following : "You learned at some point to tell the difference between a 2D and a 3D engine."

I said : " No, I learned what they are, and being able to tell the difference comes naturally with that knowledge, at least when you're not a moron."

You said : "But you were not born with that knowledge."

No. That's right. I know what a 2D engine is. I know what a 3D engine is. I know how they work, and knowing what they are actually manifests knowing how they work to a certain extent.

If you do not have this knowledge, you should educate yourself before participating in a discussion which requires this knowledge.


And I'm terribly sorry if I offended you. I already said you were not a moron because you just don't know exactly what you're talking about (at least I assume so now). I have that too, sometimes.

As for my criticism and psychological immaturity..
It was justified. You said

a) I believe a huge number of people play Diablo II in 2D mode (to boost frame rate), although I realise this doesn't necessarily make it a 2D game. I believe we could class Diablo II sales as adequate.

Which, in my book, means one or both of two things :
A: You're a moron
B : You don't know what you're talking about

Either way, you should keep your mouth shut. If you want to say something, educate yourself first.

And please, stop the boohoo. You don't need to cry over the word 'moron'. I'm not being terrbly hostile. In fact, I can see you just made a mistake and you are probably well able to educate yourself on the matter. Even if you choose not to do so, you now know Diablo 2 is a 2D game.

The point I'm trying to make is that any sign of ignorance on the basics, essence and inner core of a particular subjects negates all arguments you make on a higher level. Basically meaning that you can't really defend 3D or 2D engines when you don't know what they are, and to a certain extent how they work.

This is insane.
Someone is calling someone and idiot. And that idiot is not me!

wierd, isnt it? i say its the first sign of the armagadon

MF wrote:Allright friendly friend Crow, let me elaborate :

Hilarious and very mature.

MF wrote:You said the following : "You learned at some point to tell the difference between a 2D and a 3D engine."

I said : " No, I learned what they are, and being able to tell the difference comes naturally with that knowledge, at least when you're not a moron."

You said : "But you were not born with that knowledge."

No. That's right. I know what a 2D engine is. I know what a 3D engine is. I know how they work, and knowing what they are actually manifests knowing how they work to a certain extent.

Since you're unable to follow the logic for yourself: this means you learned the difference between 2D and 3D when you learned the second set of knowledge. To elaborate, either:

You acquired your knowledge of 2D then 3D (at which point you learned the difference)

or

You acquired your knowledge of 3D then 2D (at which point you learned the difference)

MF wrote:If you do not have this knowledge, you should educate yourself before participating in a discussion which requires this knowledge.

I'll be sure to if I ever participate in such a discussion.

MF wrote:It was justified. You said

a) I believe a huge number of people play Diablo II in 2D mode (to boost frame rate), although I realise this doesn't necessarily make it a 2D game. I believe we could class Diablo II sales as adequate.

Which, in my book, means one or both of two things :
A: You're a moron
B : You don't know what you're talking about

Either way, you should keep your mouth shut. If you want to say something, educate yourself first.

The fact I was completely and utterly right doesn't figure in your thinking, then? Is there some kind or incorrect statement in my comment?

It doesn't matter to you that the comment was not only accurate but also relevant?

MF wrote:The point I'm trying to make is that any sign of ignorance on the basics, essence and inner core of a particular subjects negates all arguments you make on a higher level.

Your method of discussion is to first decide whether someone knows everything there possibly is to know about a subject, then just accept everything they say?

Then, by your own standard, your earlier demonstration of an incomplete understanding of logic negates most of what you say.

YOU WERE NOT RIGHT. Okay?
Diablo 2 is NOT a 2D game!

this doesn't necessarily make it a 2D game

You clearly implied Diablo 2 is otherwise a 3D game here, especially when you consider the context.

As for the rest, I wasn't talkig about learning what 3D graphical engine is or a 2D one in any particular order, I was talking about applying your fucking BRAIN to the logic in those two concepts to be able to tell them apart.

When you've seen an apple and a pear you'll be able to tell them apart, without knowing the principles of photosynthesis, right?

Crow, I think the weak point in your thinking is your belief that it's an acquired skill. It's not a skill. Granted, he didn't know the difference between 2D and 3D when he was born, but as soon as he learned what they were, he knew the difference. There's no skill about it.

So MF was correct in calling your earlier 'acquired skill' statement wrong. However, you're right when you say it's acquired knowledge, and MF has agreed with that point.

The remaining point of contention, that he called you a moron, is completely trivial. I don't think he was right in doing so, but it doesn't matter. Please, just give it a rest.

Thank you Doyle. Swell plan, that.

Sorry, Crow, for calling you a moron, taking it back and implying your ignorance later on.
Let's move on.

Great idea. I apologise for insulting your intelligence and for being aggressive.

Great now we can get back to the discussion at hand.... They don't want the game to be good. They want you to buy it (for $30 more than it's worth), play it for a while, get bored, then go buy a new game. Therefor the desired affect is to make a game with pretty colors and well known names (like DnD) to attract the masses and get them to buy the game thus making money. So considering this we can assume that Fallout 3 will be a fps with uber L337 graphics, cool weapons affects, all-new monsters, and multiplayer capablity through gamespy.......

Well you're right about the play it and drop it syndrome, but I dno't know if anyone actually WANTS that. Surely everyone wants killer games that hang around for ages?

As for gamespy, well - why does everyone hate it? I flatly refused to sign up for anything from gamespy, even when it was the only way to MP games I liked, but when the client is embedded in the game, it seems okay. What is it people don't like about it?

'cause if the game last a long time then it decreases the chance that you'll buy another one (I've got a good one I'll stick with it for awhile...) and that's bad for the economy which means good games are bad for everybody. Of course if you subscribe to play a game then it's okay for it to be good 'cause then you get money without doing anything.

Crow of Ill Omen wrote: As for gamespy, well - why does everyone hate it? I flatly refused to sign up for anything from gamespy, even when it was the only way to MP games I liked, but when the client is embedded in the game, it seems okay. What is it people don't like about it?

1. Spyware. It's Gator/GAIN this time.
2. Runs like shit.
3. Like AOL, invasive to system integrity and sometimes hard to remove.
4. Often is the only way to play a game in multiplayer, which makes the multiplayer aspect broken when/if either GameSpy drops it or Gamespy goes down the drain like other services have in the past.

There's more reasons why, I think these are the prime aspects why.

Also, about the 2d-3d thing...what was in Diablo 2 was a parallax gradient-position effect, which has been used to varying degrees in 2d games in the past. Usually it was in strict planes, but in a couple of shooters it was used for a canyon effect. How that was done was making the artwork blend, with various graphic colums scrolling faster than others (thus needing to be longer than the others, proportionately to how much more they scroll). This gives an illusion of 3d, and is a great way to add the effect without a 3d engine and also save resources. Been used in arcade shooters for a long time. With Diablo 2, it was done in both an X and Y plane and tweaked for various locations.

paynetothemax wrote:'cause if the game last a long time then it decreases the chance that you'll buy another one (I've got a good one I'll stick with it for awhile...) and that's bad for the economy which means good games are bad for everybody. Of course if you subscribe to play a game then it's okay for it to be good 'cause then you get money without doing anything.

Not really.

Good games over and over get an increasing following. That's what made Ultima so popular until U8. Subscription games do need constant updates, development time, and bugfixes on the fly...it can be a bit stressful. Otherwise, subscriber interest will wane after a while.

Regular, good releases are a good thing. It increases the chance that you'll buy another good game since the last one was well crafted.

Half-ass releases don't get anyone except, in IWD's case, the naive, die-hard Infinity Engine fans, or die-hard BIS fans. The expansion just added a bit to a static game that really just played the same every time you played it. If they just released mediocre games ad nauseum, they'd lose their audience quite easilhy.

I hate threads like this. The answer is that it doesnt matter. Each has its advantages:

2d games are more artistic looking, while 3d games have the capability to allow so much more in gameplay