J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

Nuka Cola · Post by **Nuka Cola** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:21 pm

What if you can get a trenchcoat? Eh? Eh?

Killa-Killa · Post by **Killa-Killa** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 9:00 am

Damnit, Megatron, stop taking everything so personally. Just state your points. Saying "ya well your an idiot" in no way helps your case.

Note:I assume I'll have a series of verbal attacks against my inteligence now?

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:39 am

All these clever and witty new people are hilarious, I hope they stay and become valued members of the community like Kashluk and Smiley.

and me :DDDD

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:35 pm

Megatron wrote:All these clever and witty new people are hilarious, I hope they stay and become valued members of the community like Kashluk and Smiley.

That's gotta sting.

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:13 pm

Not exactly, megatron knows he's an equally valued member so there's no harm done.

I'm wondering why this topic hasn't been moved to the wasteland yet though.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:35 pm

Because I've already had to split/move this shit once and I've decided to give up on this thread.

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:38 pm

Well, let's wait for another one to do it then.
I think it would be appreciated, though, with a bit more mod-motivation on this board.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:36 pm

You're absolutely right. This topic needs modding. However, it's not bad enough for Wastelanding, so it gets a lock.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 1:02 pm

SuperH wrote: Ok, since, it appears, you're far more qualified than anyone else to develop a game, not to mention decide what's good to put into the game, send a resume along to iply why don't you? Maybe you can get rid of J.E. before he can sully the setting any more.

Why would I bother to jump on a ship that's already sinking?

Rosh wrote:Really? And how do you figure that? Pugilism was 50's sci-fi style. So was some brawling styles instead of karate. So was large, bulky weapons, handheld and otherwise.
So... hand to hand fighting in Fallout was drawn directly from 50's sci-fi? Someone tell me if that makes any sense. Hand to hand puglism is as much 50's sci fi as it is cinema noir, sure, it's in there, but it's hardly a key element of the setting. It's like saying that eggs and bacon are 50's sci fi because people would eat them for breakfast in the 50's.

For frag's sake, THINK for once! The Khans. A bit derivative of gangs depicted in both RL and sci-fi of that time, although a bit more mundane. Why are they done like that? Because of the setting. Same as why crowbars, knives, and other akin brawling weapons were in Fallout 1, but then someone had a brain trust to put katanas and similar into Fallout 2. Oh, hey...there was swords in some 50's sci-fi. Does that mean it's proper to have swords and the like in Fallout?

Of course not, it's because design must be in relation to the setting, which was already established with the first game, borderline accepted in the second. Why the hell would they have karate moves in a 50's sci-fi America? Because it wasn't in the popular imagination of that time. Just like with Googie styling and why it doesn't quite fit into 50's sci-fi, but art deco does.

Again, think of Fallout's setting, where it is placed, and what the elements were of it. 50's sci-fi, especially from pulps, is the overlying tone of the game, almost entirely.

And, yet again, I ask, since when did any main character in any 50's sci fi ever singlehandedly wield a minigun? Bulky design or otherwise? They - did - not.

Still resorting to straw men, aren't you? Singlehanded or in both hands isn't relevent. That point of illustrating the slots with the weapons was to show that while there may be a gun in each hand or at the ready, they were not necessarily being fired at the same time. That's a far easier explanation than your: "Look, he are holding two gun in hand! Therefore akimbo is it!!!!11"

It is still irrelevent to mention however many hands they hold it in regards to bulky weapons, except that they were readied. Without getting into piecemeal over it, a quick holster or a sling could be used to hold the off weapon while the main is being used.

Oh, about the bulky weapons being held in one hand, you might want to check out some basic staple serials and pulps of that time. Namely Flash Gordon, but you can also see some of the similar in theatrical productions of cartoons. Large, bulky weapons were held in both one hand and two, but never fired in akimbo. Ray pistols were also part of popular imagination, sometimes held with one in each hand (though rare, usually it is depicted as holding one while using the other for some other purpose), but not fired both at the same time or in an akimbo way.

Again, your argument is purely the same as your earlier argument regarding power armor and the like weren't in 50's sci-fi, but you were caught blowing smoke with that load of shit.

I have studied 50's sci-fi, probably a hell of a lot longer than you've been the result of a lost condom. Radio serials, television serials, animation, pulps, and written.

Could you tell me what the defining characteristics of a "boxy" is as pertaining to sci-fi?

So lets see here, you 1) Refuse fallout 2 as continuing the fallout storyline, simply because you don't like it.

I said no such thing and you can retract that mouth stuffing, shithead. It is now evident illiteracy is your problem. Or it could be stupidity, although it is difficult to pinpoint what it is. You do a good job of arguing for the latter.

I clearly pointed out that a number of extraneous elements were in err. I made no argument about the storyline. This demonstrates your understanding of design to be horribly inadequate to even consider continuing this conversation, as the storyline is a far different thing than what I pointed out.

2) Still use the christian bible thumping argument : "You don't agree with what I say? That's because you just don't understand."

You've demonstrated that you were talking bullshit earlier. Need proof? Re-read your own posts and the replies to them. Hell, I think more than a couple of people corrected you on that as well.

3) Can't make any argument, christian circle running or otherwise, without making a personal attack as well.

Quid pro quo. If you are going to post bullshit, you're going to be treated as a person who posts bullshit. It's also amusing that you try to say I'm arguing in circles, when you keep going back to the whole "that isn't in 50's sci-fi" when you've repeatedly displayed that you pretty much don't know what 50's sci-fi is to begin with.

IRONY! HYPOCRISY!

Tremendous! I'll say it again, since you obviously know so much more about fallout, 50's sci fi, and everything in general, why don't you send a line along to iply about how great you are, so they'll listen to your excellent points and kick J.E. out, thusly saving the game.

Then, to use your logic, you sound like you should be slobbering over Chuck Cuevas' knob as his personal lackey for your level of determined cluelessness apologist.

Now, disregarding your hyperbole, I'll say that parts of what Sawyer has are flawed, and it's also unfortunate that he's been forced to try going for a TB/RT combination and all the problems that arise with that (especially with some potential overwatch and guns akimbo, standing perpendicular to a doorway on one side to lower accuracy penalties, and take out enemies easily because of the flaws that also exist in the IE games with initiative, and with the higher damage output and possible abundance of pistol ammo) mainly because of the clueless trend-chasing twits on the publisher side. He's got some of the setting down, but he still has yet to mature as a developer since he doesn't understand that "kewl != good" in these kind of projects. I was hoping between him and MCA, there would be some checks and balances that would work out, but it appears that with MCA gone, there will be problems.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:40 pm

Spazmo wrote:You're absolutely right. This topic needs modding. However, it's not bad enough for Wastelanding, so it gets a lock.

I veto'ed the lock. For some reason, I just have this quirky little opinion that a new comment forum shouldn't have the comments locked. They definitely shouldn't have threads deleted either(Right, Mad Max RW?). Anyway, since they're accessable directly from the front page, seeing as how people might read the front page and decide to leave a comment, I think it's just rather silly to have them click that COMMENT ME link only to see the THIS THRAED IZ TEH L0XX0RZ message.

I'd much rather people be scared off by the comments than the moderation of those comments.

Rosh wrote:For frag's sake, THINK for once! The Khans. A bit derivative of gangs depicted in both RL and sci-fi of that time, although a bit more mundane. Why are they done like that? Because of the setting. Same as why crowbars, knives, and other akin brawling weapons were in Fallout 1, but then someone had a brain trust to put katanas and similar into Fallout 2. Oh, hey...there was swords in some 50's sci-fi. Does that mean it's proper to have swords and the like in Fallout?

That Khans brawl deal is very much like those 1950s TEENAGE GANGS GONE BAD movies. You know the kind, where the kid falls in with the bad crowd, and ends up having to fight the leader in a fist fight to get what he wants out of the situation.

Having to fight the gang leader in pugilistic mayhem is one of the key elements of a lot of those movies in the 1950s, and most of the game's gangs were pretty damned close to the type of thing seen in those movies. Of course, some parts were taken to extremes, like the Skullz guy shooting that other guy in the Skum Pitt, but the whole thing about them having a hide out in the back room of a motel was dead on. 1950s thug gangs all had hide outs in back rooms of some building somewhere.

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 4:18 pm

After it's off the main page it should get the lock. But what's the fucking point when you veto every damn thing for your own amusement, right Saint?

And when the hell did I delete a thread?

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:20 pm

Rosh wrote:Still resorting to straw men, aren't you? Singlehanded or in both hands isn't relevent. That point of illustrating the slots with the weapons was to show that while there may be a gun in each hand or at the ready, they were not necessarily being fired at the same time. That's a far easier explanation than your: "Look, he are holding two gun in hand! Therefore akimbo is it!!!!11"

It is still irrelevent to mention however many hands they hold it in regards to bulky weapons, except that they were readied. Without getting into piecemeal over it, a quick holster or a sling could be used to hold the off weapon while the main is being used.

Oh, about the bulky weapons being held in one hand, you might want to check out some basic staple serials and pulps of that time. Namely Flash Gordon, but you can also see some of the similar in theatrical productions of cartoons. Large, bulky weapons were held in both one hand and two, but never fired in akimbo. Ray pistols were also part of popular imagination, sometimes held with one in each hand (though rare, usually it is depicted as holding one while using the other for some other purpose), but not fired both at the same time or in an akimbo way.

Again, your argument is purely the same as your earlier argument regarding power armor and the like weren't in 50's sci-fi, but you were caught blowing smoke with that load of shit.

I have studied 50's sci-fi, probably a hell of a lot longer than you've been the result of a lost condom. Radio serials, television serials, animation, pulps, and written.

Could you tell me what the defining characteristics of a "boxy" is as pertaining to sci-fi?

First off, boxy = bulky, etc. Second off, by singlehandedly I'm not referring to the akimbo / one handed argument whatsoever, I'm referring to the superhuman strength necessary for a single person to hold a minigun without any assistance. Typically miniguns are mounted, either on a tripod or some type of base on a vehicle, because it's insanely unrealistic to be able to hoist one up yourself, let alone fire it. If the kick from a shotgun can leave a bruise, imagine what firing a minigun against your stomach could do. That was never in 50's sci fi, people would never have such large weapons handheld, it just doesn't make sense.

The katanas or whatever those swords are in fo2 are dumb, and you're absolutely correct about the karate and such extra influence on the setting; it doesn't belong at all. I don't see firing two guns at once to be any further, though, from the setting than having a person hold a minigun. The game wouldn't be unbalanced because of it, sure, if you apply it to the weapons in fallout one and two, it will be unbalanced because they weren't designed for it. And i understand that you already theoretically can stick to the small guns for the entire game, in fallout one and two.
Mistah Sawyer doesn't seem to think so however, and I can also see where he's coming from. If you don't bother to do the math for the guns, common sense would dictate that the smaller guns would be weaker, giving players the option to fire two at once makes the idea of keeping with small guns seem more palatable, even if it isn't precisely 50's sci fi.

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:38 pm

Rosh wrote:but then someone had a brain trust to put katanas and similar into Fallout 2.

SuperH wrote:The katanas or whatever those swords are in fo2 are dumb

I'm curious, where on earth is there a *sword* in Fo2?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:53 pm

Smiley wrote:
Rosh wrote:but then someone had a brain trust to put katanas and similar into Fallout 2.

SuperH wrote:The katanas or whatever those swords are in fo2 are dumb
I'm curious, where on earth is there a *sword* in Fo2?

The wazikhy (spelling) blade the Yakuza uses around New Reno.

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 7:28 pm

New Reno...?

Don't you mean San Fran?

hmm it's hardly a sword, it's not even a foot long if it's a wakizashi or however you spell it.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 7:34 pm

New Reno. The Yakuzas used them.

It's still larger than a combat knife, and it wouldn't really make sense to have eastern swords in fallout.

Swords and akimbos are just for style. In reality there are better alternatives. A minigun makes sense as there needs to be some big-gun equivalent of a smg, so why not a minigun?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 7:35 pm

Smiley wrote:New Reno...?

Don't you mean San Fran?

hmm it's hardly a sword, it's not even a foot long if it's a wakizashi or however you spell it.

Yakuze is japanese mafia. San Fran are not japanese, but chinese... They are not quite the same people, you know?
So I wrote New Reno, and it is New Reno.

And it is a sword.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:05 pm

Yeah, you get them from random encounters all over there... and they totally suck. In every way imaginable. Japanese culture (read : little american kids' pop culture) doesn't belong anywhere except in a pile of burning books and dvds, and certainly not in fallout.

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:15 pm

hmm I see. I don't recall any Yakuza in New Reno, that's what confused me...!

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 9:24 pm

Smiley wrote:hmm I see. I don't recall any Yakuza in New Reno, that's what confused me...!

There aren't any Yakuza in New Reno, only in random encounters around New Reno.