How do you define an rpg?

[Thor Kaufman]

bananas

[St. Toxic]

I never actually managed to win a single level becaue it was taking AGES.

That's all due to your nationality. And there's a fast forward button, y'know.

[Koki]

Are we talking about Settlers/2?

You gook.

[box]

Are levels necessary for an RPG?

[Jesus Christ]

Are levels necessary for an RPG?

Probably not...

But they are very helpful. I can't think of an example on how to make a descent RPG without levels, but I can refer you to smarter people who maybe could. It's not the levels that make an RPG it just seems to be the only descent way to pull off descent character building.

[box]

First of all, Jesus H. Chirst, you are omnipotent. In order to be truly omnipotent, you are also necessarily omniscient. So, Jesus, so-called Savior of Man, explain your Lack of Knowledge in any given topic. Do it. Mm, hmm. Satan!

Seriously, I am curious about that. I would tend towards not. But if RPGs necessarily contain levels, the reverse is certainly not true, as there ae games with levels that fall far from the classification.

[VasikkA]

First of all, Jesus H. Chirst, you are omnipotent. In order to be truly omnipotent, you are also necessarily omniscient. So, Jesus, so-called Savior of Man, explain your Lack of Knowledge in any given topic. Do it. Mm, hmm. Satan!

I think you're mixing him up with his Father.

Seriously, I am curious about that. I would tend towards not. But if RPGs necessarily contain levels, the reverse is certainly not true, as there ae games with levels that fall far from the classification.

It depends. As there doesn't seem to be a universal definition of an RPG, you could be of either opinion. I don't think character stats and thus levels are needed in an RPG. I'd go with the character based definition(i.e. acting and behaving as if you were the character) provided I'm given enough choices to seemingly act freely in a gameworld and the gameworld reacts accordingly. Stats, combat and dragons are merely building blocks in a game of roleplaying.

Simplified, it boils down to these relations:

Character - Gameworld
Choices - Consequences

Again, this is my personal opinion.

[St. Toxic]

I'm not sure about levels, as they're just a simplified number of the experiance you've recieved so far ( As in LVL 43 instead of typing out 40502833 EXP ) but exp I think is quite the important little bit for rpg's. We have that Bethsoft mmorpg system, sure, where you fuck about and get skills for fucking about. Amazing, truly, but it does cripple open endedness and further damages the rp aspect of rpgs. To simulate a fully dynamic gameworld, you'll either inject the game with every possible choice under the sun and some more, or you'll leave appropriate bits for the imagination to take care of.

Meaning, when I'm done with Quest X I've learned some neto tricks to make me a meaner patriot than before.

X1 The Beth approach: the skill I use to finish the quest is upped by the ammount I use it. The quest itself becomes quite pointless as to what I gain outside of material possessions. There's no room for anything to happen in between that I as the player don't know off, and my gain is only what I've put into it.

X2 Fallout: Depending on how I solve the quest, I get different amounts of experiance. When it pools up, I level up and choose what I'll be more proficient in. This allows me unrestricted access to character building, thus adding to the roleplay element. While there's a limited ammount of quest finishes, the "in betweens" of quests are unlimited and unrestricted, and my skill choices at the level cap are worthy representations of the "in betweens".

While X1 at first glance seems far more realistic than X2, it's a harmful reward system ( as it rewards running about like a retard and generally not interacting with the story or gameworld ) and it is quite restricting, for both gameplay and rp.

[Redeye]

I'm not sure about levels, as they're just a simplified number of the experiance you've recieved so far ( As in LVL 43 instead of typing out 40502833 EXP ) but exp I think is quite the important little bit for rpg's. We have that Bethsoft mmorpg system, sure, where you fuck about and get skills for fucking about. Amazing, truly, but it does cripple open endedness and further damages the rp aspect of rpgs. To simulate a fully dynamic gameworld, you'll either inject the game with every possible choice under the sun and some more, or you'll leave appropriate bits for the imagination to take care of.

Meaning, when I'm done with Quest X I've learned some neto tricks to make me a meaner patriot than before.

X1 The Beth approach: the skill I use to finish the quest is upped by the ammount I use it. The quest itself becomes quite pointless as to what I gain outside of material possessions. There's no room for anything to happen in between that I as the player don't know off, and my gain is only what I've put into it.

X2 Fallout: Depending on how I solve the quest, I get different amounts of experiance. When it pools up, I level up and choose what I'll be more proficient in. This allows me unrestricted access to character building, thus adding to the roleplay element. While there's a limited ammount of quest finishes, the "in betweens" of quests are unlimited and unrestricted, and my skill choices at the level cap are worthy representations of the "in betweens".

While X1 at first glance seems far more realistic than X2, it's a harmful reward system ( as it rewards running about like a retard and generally not interacting with the story or gameworld ) and it is quite restricting, for both gameplay and rp.

Wasteland goes both ways
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A bisexual threesome courtesy of old Interplay.

[Koki]

I consider skill using-getting system superior("Want to be a doctor? Go to wasteland kill mobs. Want to be a spokesman? Go to wastelant kill mobs..."), but I have yet to see it implemented so it can't be abused(Jumping around like a moron upping your Acrobatics for example).

[Redeye]

I consider skill using-getting system superior("Want to be a doctor? Go to wasteland kill mobs. Want to be a spokesman? Go to wastelant kill mobs..."), but I have yet to see it implemented so it can't be abused(Jumping around like a moron upping your Acrobatics for example).

I'd love a kill mobs game.

Like a riot control simulation.

Have wacky mode with flamethrower tanks and combines/threshers and minigun-equipped robots.
Don't forget the projectojets with VX.

Then comes the ultra-fun "Media Affairs" part of the game:
On tv you run a bunch of random footage of terrorists and radicals/etc. Just for fun throw in some little clips of intellectuals using jargon. (Subtext=They are all the enemy)

The hopelessly idiotic public will switch to "security mode" and applaud their valiant protectors.

Then run a segment on "fallen heroes". Have a flag waving in the background and play some patriotic music. Observe a moment of silence and then run a piece wherein people wax nostalgic about "the Good Old Days".

Have a follow up with interviews of teenagers. "Do you think people nowadays are less polite and respectful than when your parents were your age?"
And the dumb kids will regurgitate the standardized answers they have learned from watching the same interviews on tv many times before. "Yeah, people these days don't have a sense of community/etc."
As if their parents had regaled them with tales of how nice everyone was back in the 80's.

Of course, we have to have the "outreach and uplift" segment, where a "disadvantaged latino-african obese semi-retarded handicapped woman is given a "hand-up, not a hand-out". Marvel as she "overcomes obstacles" and "makes sacrifices" and "stays true to her principles".
Don't forget the church scene where she is energized by the deep, soulful, traditional ethnic wailing of the choir.


I really want to play this game.

[Koki]

I'll pass on your idea to the president of Republic of Poland

[vx trauma]

Have wacky mode with flamethrower tanks and combines/threshers and minigun-equipped robots.
Don't forget the projectojets with VX.

*fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfappafappafapfapfapfapfapfpfpfpfpfpfpfpffff*
*!*
JAAA!! JAAA!! JAWOHL!!!

[St. Toxic]

"Want to be a doctor? Go to wasteland kill mobs. Want to be a spokesman? Go to wastelant kill mobs..."

In Fallout quests seem to hand out more experiance than just killing stuff, and there is a time pressure to put a cap on what you can gain just running around and, em, killing stuff. I'd call it a pretty fluent system.

[Jesus Christ]

"Want to be a doctor? Go to wasteland kill mobs. Want to be a spokesman? Go to wastelant kill mobs..."

In Fallout quests seem to hand out more experiance than just killing stuff, and there is a time pressure to put a cap on what you can gain just running around and, em, killing stuff. I'd call it a pretty fluent system.

Getting exp for taking the diplomatic route was one of the greatest aspects of FO, you could still raise diplomatic points in the beth version, but you couldn’t use diplomacy to improve anything other than the difficulty of your stupid "speechcraft minigame". Experience (an experience pool, not pts going right to the skill being used) is definitely of tremendous importance, I agree with the good saint that levels are just a means of simplifying experience.

[box]

I think I'd fall more into VasiKKa's definition, but it strictly limits the amount of 'real' RPGs out there by, hmm, cRPGs like the FOs and PS:T. But I don't know what to call the rest, like the BGates and the old 8bit games I used to play. Dragon Warrior games, linear as all hell and not enough text, but solid, fun games. Castlevania 2 for NES, the best NES game out there, a side-scrolling RPG?

Toxic's Example 1, a la Oblivion, is more realistic and oh so masturbatory, like jumping up and down for acro skill, which might as well be eating KFC for muscles or whatever in San Andreas.

At any rate I would say that maybe a sk1llz-based level-up system would be okay if you could train for most or all of your points a la Morrowind. That way you could gain levels without actually having to preform said activity. How about lifting the five-points-per-level training cap in Oblivion to however many points you want, or to 2/3? Some kind of communist, scaleable system whereby it becomes exponentally more expensive?

Here's an idea for maybe making Ex.1 more workable:

How about quests like this: you go to Doctor Hans Mengele and he says, "Vault Dweller, I need you to go kill ze deathclaws in my garten" or whatever. You do, and if you're smart enough you could say, "Well, Doc. Forget the money and train me how to set broken bones instead..." and Mengele raises your Doc skill, or gives you a "Autooc Training Certification" perk or something. I'm trying to think of a FO quest that worked like that, maybe the Klamath Gecko Trapper in FO2, and that's about it.

Would it work on a larger scale, and it would it be good for illustrating an emerging barter system?

[St. Toxic]

Skill and perk reward system for quests is a full go by me, get as much of that in there as you can. But no mmorpg style skill "training", really, none of that. It's great ( in the same sense mmo's are great, meaning not really ) for mmo's where you have the option to be an antisocial bastard just standing around on the edge of the world, cutting trees 24/7 to get your lumberskill up to a billion, but in a singleplayer game with, hopefully, a throng of quests and stories and funky dunky stuff, I really don't want a system where my choices are "Spend hours doing quests not developing your character much at all" and "Spend hours stabbing the respawning hobgoblin to become the most stabalicious bastard in the history of the wasteland".

Another thing I don't want to see is the "Rest to advance in lvl" thing. Who's with me on that one?

[box]

Amen on all counts. MMMPRORPRPGs are crap, generally the training sytem sucks, and having to go to sleep for your level is silly.

So, since levels really are just a placeholder for experience points, could we say then that not so much levels but gaining experience is one key requisite of an RPG?

The old WL system?

[Redeye]

The old WL system?

As I said.

WL.

Some learn by do, rest is points you get to assign.

Though I remember the skp could only be spent at libraries or in the
helicopter simulator.

[VasikkA]

Another thing I don't want to see is the "Rest to advance in lvl" thing. Who's with me on that one?

I think it's more of a remnant of the past. You're supposed to memorize or grasp the stuff you've learned earlier that day. I don't know the origins of this curiosity, D&D perhaps?

I consider levels as some sort of milestones; something you strive for, unlike the uninteresting skill usage-based system.