Signs of a future Superpower

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:03 pm

Hammer wrote:My signature says a hell of a lot more about success than your Communist avatar ever could hope to.

Now, now, hammer. Communism has killed 100 million people. I really doubt that America can claim a score like that. Wait, I forget, is murdering people by the millions good or bad?

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:18 pm

depends how bad assed you wanna be.
so in the killing department, communism pwns the US.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:51 pm

Actually the Greeks had democracy.

Despotism is a governement where all the powers are reunited in the same man's hand, this last man having authority over everything and everyone.

Communism isn't despotic. Communism is the abolition of private property to make it collective.

Stop talking of those hundreds of millions of death the communists caused. If you are talking about wars in Korea or Vietnam, than USA is as responsible.

And stop looking at the past results of communist revolutions. You need to try before you succeed.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:54 pm

s4ur0n27 wrote:Stop talking of those hundreds of millions of death the communists caused. If you are talking about wars in Korea or Vietnam, than USA is as responsible.

I'm talking about the millions of 'class enemies' slaughtered by communists in Russia and China. I'm talking about the people murdered by Communist regimes in North Korea and Cuba. I'm not talking about the Korean war, or the Vietnam war.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:11 am

The Athenians are considered the founders of Democracy, I disagree whole-heartedly. If you wanna see a damn near perfect, Utopian, Democratic society you need to look towards the Lacedaemeons.

Otherwise known as The Spartans

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:17 am

The Athenians are all glorified in highschool and popular thought, but they were really big jerks. The spartans had to rise up against the oppression they enforced throughout the meditteranian, because they had the biggest navy. All the other greek states were too little to do anything, so they're like "omg sparta help us wtf" and it was like "ok". Then nothing happened forever, because they were both shitty at fighting each other. Then there was this athenian governer guy named Aphistocles or something, whatever he was a Sophist, and a bad one at that, and cut all the phalluses off the athenien good luck statues (hence bringing them BADASS bad luck), and the atheniens got po'd at that, exiled him, and he went to sparta and was like "um here's athens secrets plz". Then athens got f'd up bad because he also destroyed their navy by having it attack crete, "for teh phat lewt", and in a couple hundred years the romans were like "go sparta, we're making our government like yours plz". Thanks for listening to mah historah lesson. I don't think that guy's name was aphistocles really, but it started with an A. oh well.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:22 am

All I remember is that the Athenians were jerks, like H mentioned, but then Pericles, the Athenian ruler was a big asshole, so the Spartan and their friends (Delian League? Dont remember) collectively said "stfu" and pwned them.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:24 am

The delian leauge was with Athens to start, kinda like the UN or something, but then Athens got so big and tuff that they annexed their allies. Pretty cool no? Then Corinth was like "yo sparta athens is being a bitch help" and etc. The states that were against Athens were the peloponnesian states, hence the title "the peloponnesian wars" (sp?). Was it Pericles? Brb i'm gonna check my world civ book it says who the big athens jerk was.

Edit : OOps not crete, sicily. And the guy's name was Alcibaiedes. Hahaha he was cool because he was wildy sexual, he'd have sex with anything he could, and dress up like a woman to spy on women only religious rituals. Cool kid no?

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:41 pm

The war was named peloponesian because it took place around the peloponesian sea.

And Sparta was full of jerks too, they were big tuff fighters, that's all.
Athen still brought a lot of new cultures in Europe. Eastern culture were massing in Tunisia and, along with the Phenitians or w/e you call em in english (not Venice in Italy), Athen welcomed the oriental culture.

P.S. Lesbos Island was the best back then

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:46 pm

s4ur0n27 wrote:The war was named peloponesian because it took place around the peloponesian sea.

And Sparta was full of jerks too, they were big tuff fighters, that's all.

The Spartans weren't really jerks. They had no reason to be anything but big tuff fighters after the Messian war, I think its name was.

P.S. Lesbos Island was the best back then

Why, because Sapphos wrote love poems that were directed at women? It's not like there were huge lesbian orgies there or anything.

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:48 pm

s4ur0n27 wrote:Actually the Greeks had democracy.

Despotism is a governement where all the powers are reunited in the same man's hand, this last man having authority over everything and everyone.

Communism isn't despotic. Communism is the abolition of private property to make it collective.

Stop talking of those hundreds of millions of death the communists caused. If you are talking about wars in Korea or Vietnam, than USA is as responsible.

And stop looking at the past results of communist revolutions. You need to try before you succeed.

First it was Athens. They were not united as Greece back then, they were city states. Second Communism is a despotic government, despotic is used to describe tyranny. Thats what communism is, a tyrannical government which uses the ideas of socialism. If people liked communism so much, then why do people keep trying to escape it? Why do you think that the government rose up against itself in the USSR in 1990? And we didnt or ever have killed hundreds of millions of people, and neither has any government. The USSR is responsible for over thirty million deaths of thier own people. Not to mention innocent afghanis and not so innocent Germans, innocent Koreans, and they even sent the Jews to labor camps, well they were going to but luckly for the jewish population, Stalin died before that order was going to be carried out. And dont forget about the Tibet annexation. Many very innocent people were murdered then becuase they arent allowed to practice thier religion. Comeon, what have the budhists ever done to deserve that?

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:52 pm

Comeon, what have the budhists ever done to deserve that?

Well, they were rather oppressive to the Muslims in Khara Khitai...

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:57 pm

I'm talking about the monks. They were the ones who were vastly persecuted.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:11 pm

Soldier87 wrote:First it was Athens.

Um, did you read like the last 5 posts? It wasn't athens - athens was a BIG BAD OPPRESIVE TYRANNICAL STATE. Spara made up what we think of as democracy today, thanks.

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:14 pm

Study history more often. It was athens. Thanks.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:16 pm

First there was oligarchy and tyrants in Athens. Then Cleisthenes started democracy there. Sparta ALWAYS had oligarchy.

Soldier87 · Post by **Soldier87** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:19 pm

Sparta was military based, it was a government all about the military, Athens was a true democracy because people were involved in everything and voted for thier political leaders themselves.

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:26 pm

Hammer wrote:The Athenians are considered the founders of Democracy, I disagree whole-heartedly. If you wanna see a damn near perfect, Utopian, Democratic society you need to look towards the Lacedaemeons.

Otherwise known as The Spartans

now i can understand why hammer thinks a militarist/democratic government is perfect.
but the spartan government wasnt a utopian democracy.
no one yet has said anything about the spartans wonderful state controlled schools, and the governemnt parlament with 2 kings and governing body of elected for life elders.
they even used slaves and took peoples children away at the age of 7.

go utopian democracy!

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:31 pm

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD wrote:
Hammer wrote:The Athenians are considered the founders of Democracy, I disagree whole-heartedly. If you wanna see a damn near perfect, Utopian, Democratic society you need to look towards the Lacedaemeons.

Otherwise known as The Spartans

now i can understand why hammer thinks a militarist/democratic government is perfect.
but the spartan government wasnt a utopian democracy.
no one yet has said anything about the spartans wonderful state controlled schools, and the governemnt parlament with 2 kings and governing body of elected for life elders.
they even used slaves and took peoples children away at the age of 7.

go utopian democracy!

They didn't just have slaves, their whole economy was based on slavery. As soon as they defeated and enslaved the Messenians or whatever the their name was, all their men had to do was fight.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:34 pm

They should bring back slaves, but like treated better. Like servants mabye, but BETTER!