Duck and Cover

I like to see varing fighting "styles", like being able to choose Martial Arts or boxing fighting styles(maybe determined by the SPECIAL system?).

Kozmo_Naut wrote: What I really want is some decent unarmed hand-to-hand combat.

It was sucky in FO1, alot better in FO2, but still not powerful enough to compete with the weapons you get later in the game. (But the Mega Power Fist was very nice to have!)

Eh.. HtH might have been less powerful than other weapons that were available to you, but it was still strong enough to use exclusively throughout the game and still be a match or more than a match for your foes- I don't think that it needs to be strengthened much..

Could use some style though

"I kicked you in the shin, now what are you gonna do with that 'minigun'"

paynetothemax wrote:"I kicked you in the shin, now what are you gonna do with that 'minigun'"

"I burst you in face with minigun"

As for using HtH in FO2, use the mega power fist. Along with the Slayer, Bonus HtH Attacks, Bonus HtH Damage (2) , and Bonus Move. Also get a couple Action Boys and with targeted punches & kicks you should be able to take on anyone.

Slider wrote:

paynetothemax wrote:"I kicked you in the shin, now what are you gonna do with that 'minigun'"

"I burst you in face with minigun"

As for using HtH in FO2, use the mega power fist. Along with the Slayer, Bonus HtH Attacks, Bonus HtH Damage (2) , and Bonus Move. Also get a couple Action Boys and with targeted punches & kicks you should be able to take on anyone.

I haven't tried that particular combo yet... *Updates to-do list*

Although I have tried using the Mega Power Fist for targeted blows to the eyes. Can you say SPLAT?

What I was asking for are 'special' moves. Grabs, throws, knee-to-the-groin and so on. And style. Drunken Fighting in particular.

hmmm. knee to the groin. i can see it now

Item- Steel reinforced kevlar jockstrap

I like the bow idea myself. Also, with all of the junked cars lying around, it would be possible to make crossbows from their leaf springs.
Towns might have ballistae made from truck springs. Metal armor should be more common since it can be made from stripped cars.

There should be more salvage options, especially if you have a vehicle and strong friends(or power armor).
Average-to-high-quality metal from the Old Times such as girders, engine blocks, and railroad tracks would be in high demand. Glass from the old days would be in particular demand, I would think.

Blarg wrote:There should be more salvage options, especially if you have a vehicle and strong friends(or power armor).
Average-to-high-quality metal from the Old Times such as girders, engine blocks, and railroad tracks would be in high demand. Glass from the old days would be in particular demand, I would think.

Railroad Tracks... :twisted:

How's that for a cool melee weapon?

Ooh, and if there are railroads, how about having one of these babies?

Railroad Tracks...
How's that for a cool melee weapon?

Already tried it in the Arena. In real life, it would be impossibly heavy.
Even in Fallout, it would be too heavy for power armor.
US railroad track on main freight lines usually weighs about 100-135 pounds per yard(a reference to x-pound track refers to weight per yard), or about 45-60 kilos per not-quite-a-meter. On the other hand, if you were strong enough, it would sting a bit...

Well, technically, you COULD use it as a weapon, if strong enough (in SPECIAL system, min str 9) and you could surprise your opponent. It's waaay too slow to start a "fist-combat" like battle with a railroad track.

Blarg wrote:Metal armor should be more common since it can be made from stripped cars.

"Look! on the horse... that plate armor! It's... a Chevy Cavalier!" ;P

Blarg wrote: 7.62mm NATO(.308) weapons should do more damage, penetrate armor better, and have greater range than .223(5.56mm)weapons, as per real life.

.223 and 7.62 are used by both the military and civilians. AP ammo should be around on old military bases, police stations, and such, it is restricted for civilians today. Hollowpoints or jacketed soft points(acting as JHP for game purposes) should be available.

Ammo mods: Perhaps a merchant could modify ammo for a price, turning FMJ into AP or JHP; or "hot loading" ammo for more damage and range, but a greater chance of malfunction.

The Sniper Rifle is described as having been rechambered for .223 from 7.62mm, perhaps it could be re-re-chambered or available in 7.62 originally.

At the same range, 7.62 mm x 51mm (.308) FMJ (military call this "Ball" ammo) should do more damage than 5.56 mm (.223) ammo in single shot mode. In burst mode at close range however, you'd probably do more damage with an assault rfile chambered for 5.56mm as they tend to have a higher rate of fire than the few 7.62mm full auto rifles out there and are way easier to keep on target during full auto fire! Most countries that made their own copies of the FN FAL (Britain, Canada etc..) for example only made semi auto versions of this otherwise excellent rifle as the 2nd and 3rd rounds of a full auto burst with this weapon usually only hit sky!

While you can buy (in our timeline) soft point and hollow tip high expansion rounds in both 7.62mm and 5.56mm civilian loadings, these are usually intended for bolt action rifle and could cause stoppages (jamming) in assault rifles due to the soft or hollow tip bullets being damaged in the magazine or during loading. Another reason why you might have problems with this or any re-loaded ammo in a military weapon would be caused by a light (reduced propellent) load not producing enough recoil to cycle a recoil operated weapon (H&K, FN FAL etc..) or a high residue propellent clogging up the gas system in gas operated (M16, AK series etc) weapons.

As for 'hot' loads, standard military ammo is loaded pretty 'hot' as standard and increasing the chamber pressure/recoil forces in a 100+ year old gun ( as any FN FAL or AK 47 would be in FO1) is a pretty good way of loosing fingers, eyes, etc in the resulting barrel/bolt failure...

Current 'real' world 5.56mm ball ammo is actually a light AP round as it has a mild steel core in the front part of the bullet. With its higher muzzle velocity and smaller cross sectional area it out penetrates 7.62mm ball against a NATO standard 3.4mm steel plate target until nearly 600 metres.

Of course, real AP ammo (either Teflon jacketed in small calibres or tungsten cored in larger rounds) will penetrate several times this armour thickness at greater ranges.

I have a real problem with that description of the sniper rifle....unless you were all out of 7.62mm ammo, you would never re-chamber it for a smaller calibre round because you need the higher kinetic energy that a larger round holds on to when shooting at distant targets. 5.56 gives up energy very quickly as it's velocity drop due to the bullet being very light (3.95 gm versus the 9.5 gm of a 7.62mm bullet). Heavier bullets also resist cross winds better than lighter ones, a key factor when shooting at distant targets!

Basically, the heavier the bullet, the more energy it has left at a 1,000 metres to damage the target. Recent cartrigde choices in sniper rifle such as .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua Mag are good examples of round which have high bullet energy and high velocity to reduce the amount of bullect drop at long range.

More importantly, much like boring out a car or bike cylinder to increase engine capacity and power; re-chambering a weapon for a larger round can be done, but going to a smaller round is almost impossible. You'd have to fit a sleeve inside the barrel and chamber, and change all the springs/gas assembly to make it work.

Heckler and Koch could do this at their factory if you paid them enough, but there's no way some old blacksmith in the Wastes would have the equipment or skill to do this!!

Viktor makes some very good points, but I have to bitch about one little thing: Teflon coating does not an AP bullet make- the teflon is used simply to preserve the inner surfaces of the gun/barrel during firing (as the bullet itself is typically steel- which would carve up the rifling and make the gun useless).

One other thing: holy shit, viktor is so right about rechambering weapons... seems I wasn't the only disbeliever afterall

Darwin_187 wrote:Viktor makes some very good points, but I have to bitch about one little thing: Teflon coating does not an AP bullet make- the teflon is used simply to preserve the inner surfaces of the gun/barrel during firing (as the bullet itself is typically steel- which would carve up the rifling and make the gun useless).

One other thing: holy shit, viktor is so right about rechambering weapons... seems I wasn't the only disbeliever afterall

Ooops....thanks for picking that up, Darwin! I seem to remember nylon also being used to protect the barrel from steel jacketed rounds..

Another option (mainly seen in large calibre tank ammo) is to have a small diameter tungsten projectile with a plastic sabot which engages the rifling, providing the gas seal and keeps the projectile clear of the barrel surfaces. The sabot flies apart when the round leaves the barrel, allowing sub-calibre muntions to be used in larger guns. I think Remington made a .30-'06 sabot cartridge with .223 bullet to allow hunters to use their deer guns on small game. And there was a 12 gauge sabot round made for the police which had a .50 steel jacketed projectile for baracade penetration and shooting out engine blocks - I think a company called BRI made it....

Glad to hear someone has a 'realistic' view on rechambering weapons. The British Army spent a small fortune 'rechambering thousands of Lee Enfield rilfes and BREN LMGs from .303 to .308 - this was actually re-manufacturing as all weapons had to be returned to the Royal Small Arms factory in Enfield.

As this meant going from a 7.7mm x 54mm rimmed round to the 7.62mm x 51mm NATO rimless round, it was very much a 'throw the barrels and bolts away and start again' exercise.....and this was at a factory where they had been inventing/developing/manufacturing 'modern' (1900 +) military weapons for over 60 years!

I would really like to see a weapon that will actually kill the enemy, rather than take off 1/4 of their health after 5 direct hits! That kind of invincibility should be reserved for power armor etc, not for leather-armor wearing bastards. Basically, people should die easier.

*aim for the eyes or have a high luck*

As for surviving a burst from an assault rifle or minigun it just shouldn't happen unless you have power armor on.

.308, .303, and 7.62 are all the same IMO. Pick one and use it as the standard... and make any weapons you dont want the players using right away to be odd calibres - so they have to get the weapon re-chambered (bookoo bucks expense, like the car in Fo2).

In fact, I like nice round numbers - like 5mm instead of 5.56, and 8mm instead of 7.62. 13mm instead of 12.7, 11mm instead of .45 cal, etc. It makes it much easier to repeat and understand.

Come on, the game happens in an era long after we'd die - I dont care about the history of guns up til now, cause it'll be as outdated as the musket.

7.62mm bullets do more damage than 5.56mm, but 5.56 has a better penetration rating because the bullet actually does go faster and has a much smaller cross-section in which armor would be able to effect it (velocity on average of 800 meters / sec with 7.62mm as compared to 1000+ meters / sec with 5.56mm).

As for AP - aren't all rifle bullets steel with a small lead coating?
At least that's wat I was lead to believe (no pun intended).

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Bigger the bullet = lots more damage (talking diameter here).
Faster the bullet = more penetration and longer range.
Heavier the bullet = more penetration and more damage, but less range.
Harder the bullet = lots more penetration, less damage.
Slower the bullet = more damage, lots less penetration & range.
Softer the bullet = more damage, less penetration

Combine these:

5.56mm bullet = Faster, Harder
7.62mm bullet = Heavier
12.7mm bullet = Heavier, Bigger
12ga Shotgun Shell = Slower, Bigger, Softer (varies)
9mm bullet = Slower
14mm bullet = Bigger, Slower
.45cal bullet = Bigger, Slower, Softer
4.5mm (see below) = Faster, Harder, Heavier

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For armor:
I dont see how metal armor could have any effect on stopping bullets - metal plates wont stop 9mm beretta rounds... there aint no way in hell it'll stop a rifle bullet... and bullets do more damage if they're going slower (because the target absorbs a greater percentile of the impact energy - and more importantly, the bullet gets lodged in them instead of going right out the other side). Damage meaning the magnitude of effect it has on the target (stopping power).


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I've got an excellent idea for a weapon:

Uses 4.5 x 60mm cartridges. The projectile itself is 4.5 x 32mm, which consists of a 4.3mm Steel rod with a steep parabolic tip, which is coated in a hard plastic sabot. The cartridge contains refined explosives - something that works better than gunpowder for the purposes of firing a bullet. It looks like a very narrow 7.62mm cartridge with an abnormally long bullet on the end (which is white btw).

Now, the rifle is semi-auto only, and has a very long barrel which is lightly rifled (about a meter, with about 4-6 twists per foot, dont want the rifling slowing the bullet down - the bullet has alot of surface area). It has a 30-shot clip to feed from (ideal for a combat rifle, has alot of endurance).

The gun kicks like a shotgun when fired, sending the projectile out at nearly twice as fast as any other conventional firearm bullet (about 2500 meters per second). The effect is roughly the same as the Gauss Rifle from FoT (but less damage).

This is in essence, a gun with the same effect as a railgun, but low-tech instead of high-tech.

I like it. You have valid points. In the post-oops future, today's guns will be museum pieces, or at least antiques.

Sounds good. Now how do we get rid of the energy guns and mini guns?

Why would you get rid of the energy weapons?

They are standard military issue for the army in that time period.
Laser Rifle --> their sniper rifle
Plasma Rifle --> their assualt rifle without a burst mode
Gatling Laser --> their machine gun/minigun
What else do you need except for some grenades and some armor?

As for new weapons, I only would like to see some more melee/HtH type weapons. If a new gun(s) gets introduced it should be very rare and made by a group like the BOS or other high tech group.