Duck and Cover

Yeah, as I said, the general story of FOT can be preserved, but some aspects of it should be revamped. For balance reasons the FOT ending where the Calculator is destroyed should be considered canon, since otherwise the Eastern BOS would be too strong.

Anyway, I'd say that the Enclave should be kept somewhat a mystery in the main rulebook, and not referenced directly. It says on the website that an organization companion guide will follow, so that might be a better place to outline the Enclave.

And if we include Tactics, we need to remember that there are two Brotherhoods of Steel - the original one, which plays more of a passive role in the Core Region (Nevada/California/Oregon area), and the Eastern BOS, which is a fascist, expansionistic splinter faction which is only BOS in name.

So woah woah, starting out as a bos member? How'd that work?

St. Toxic wrote:So woah woah, starting out as a bos member? How'd that work?

In FOT you started as a BOS recruit wearing a stupid uniform designed by Sigfried and Roy and carrying a pistol or hunting rifle.

Wouldn't most of the BoS members just 'start out' that way? IIRC, the BoS were just a bunch of dudes holed up in an underground bunker, and in Fallout 1, they didn't even accept recruits (they gave all of them the impossible quest of going to the glow & coming back alive), so I presume most modern-day BoS members would just start out that way, as the descendents of the BoS members who had come to the underground bunker previously. Right?

Edito: and yeah, in Fallout Tactics you just start out as some tribal/trailer trash dude recruited forcefully out of the wasteland.

Well hey, screw tactics, where they were just picking up tribal trash and sending them out in combat and letting them "work their way up to bliss". Bos is pretty exclusive eh, an organization usually not entered from the outside unless you're the prime friggin cheese of the wasteland ( as Atoga said, Mr Impossible ) -- then you might get that starter-up uniform. However, if your daddy is a fraggin paladin, you'll be born a member, with a silver-power armor in your mouth -- as in, with quite the humongous advantage. I'm not sure I see it working out.

Don't forget that the BOS in FOT were expansionist. They were building a conquering army and that takes recruits. They were not a technical order of knights keeping a low profile as in FO1 or 2.

On the subject of PA in FOT, it took my team quite a while to get any IIRC.

Original BOS from California isn't normally recruiting people from the outside, but the Eastern splinter faction is conquering towns and villages and recruiting from there.

As for getting Power Armors, the thing is, the BOS doesn't even have the technology to create new ones (at least in FO1 - FOT is inconsistant on that, so let's assume the horned versions are tweaked T51b's). And if the ranks of the BOS grow (either as the numbers of the descendants of the original crew grow, like in the original BOS, or as they expand their territory, as in the Eastern one), they won't even have enough Power Armors for all Paladins, or they'll have only as many Paladins as Power Armors, and the rest will just be Knights, even though Knights used to only be engineers in the beginning.

Anyway, it'd be best to have only the Core Region in the main book and have the areas from FOT in some future expansion, especially that not knowing what's in the middle is kind of problematic.

Ausir wrote:As for races, I suppose they could be divided into "sub-races", to make up for the small number of races in the main rulebook - e.g. regular ghouls and glowing ghouls, dumb mutants and smart mutants (the latter ones with a level adjustment or something like that, to make up for their advantages), humans could be generally divided into "clean" ones (e.g. Vault Dwellers or the Enclave) - aquainted with high tech, but not adjusted very well to life outside (radiation, survival in the Wasteland), tribals, who are best suited to surviving on their own in the harsh environment, and the ones in between, who live in remnants of towns or towns made after the War, who use some technology and are somewhat adjusted to life in the Fallout world.

Seeing all that argues between "SPECIAL" and "d20", can I suggest a little compromise: having "(sub)races" as "character classes" instead of d&d/d20 type character (prestige) classes?

Actually, races-as-classes is one of the optional rules in Unearthed Arcana d20 supplement.

Ausir wrote:Actually, races-as-classes is one of the optional rules in Unearthed Arcana d20 supplement.

I know nothing of that, but I know it was a (part) of a character class rules in D&D original, having "Elf" as character class.

So, can that "race-as-class" rule solve the problem of adapting fallout to d20 system?

Chichiriba wrote:

Ausir wrote:Actually, races-as-classes is one of the optional rules in Unearthed Arcana d20 supplement.

I know nothing of that, but I know it was a (part) of a character class rules in D&D original, having "Elf" as character class.

So, can that "race-as-class" rule solve the problem of adapting fallout to d20 system?

That's how it was in the d&d basic game of the 80's as well... red, blue, green boxes... Did'nt know that's how it was in the original... before my time.

St. Toxic wrote:Well hey, screw tactics, where they were just picking up tribal trash and sending them out in combat and letting them "work their way up to bliss". Bos is pretty exclusive eh, an organization usually not entered from the outside unless you're the prime friggin cheese of the wasteland ( as Atoga said, Mr Impossible ) -- then you might get that starter-up uniform. However, if your daddy is a fraggin paladin, you'll be born a member, with a silver-power armor in your mouth -- as in, with quite the humongous advantage. I'm not sure I see it working out.

QFT

I will point out that d20 Modern uses a very different class system than standard D&D D20.

You have Classes and Occupations.

Classes are: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated & Charismatic

then you have occupations like: Academic, Adventurer, Athelete, Blue Collar, Celebrity, Creative, Criminal, Dilettante, Doctor, Emergency Service, Entrepreneur, Investigative, Law Enforcement, Military, Religious, Rural, Student, Technician, White Collar

Very different from your standard d20 classes and, I think, very good for the fallout world.

You could have a Strong Adventurer or a fast one... very fallout-y

So, the occuptaions(in Fallout) could be: Trader, Adventurer, Scout, Hunter, Soldier, Merchant, Doctor, Mechanic, Technician, etc.

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Also, for whoever it was saying Deathclaws <b>SHOULD NOT</b> be a race because they didn't like the idea, Ausir I think... Just don't use them. Don't make the decision for all the other GMs who don't mind. Give them the option and if they want to they'll use it... You don't have to.

This game should have plenty of options, now, mind you, option do not always equal Crunchy-bits. All options should, however, be just that; optional.

D&D 3e had this problem, to not use one of the "options" you had to cut out 10 other things that applied to it, then the ten things each of those iteracted with... talk about a pain. d20 Modern seems to have done a better job with this.

Well, the thing is, the talking deathclaws in FO2 were just one small tribe, created shortly before FO2, and killed shortly after. According to Avellone, they all died, and Goris and Xarn didn't reproduce. In the long run, they aren't as notable as the super mutants or ghouls, and are merely an aside. Talking deathclaws were one of the most widely criticized parts of FO2, and the FO2 designers admitted that they probably weren't the best idea, just like the talking racccoons in FO1, which fortunately were cut before the game was published.

And the talking deathclaws in Tactics were yet another huge errors, since the DC's weren't talking until the Enclave experimented on them years after FOT takes place.

Anyway, including talking deathclaws as one of the major races along with super mutants and ghouls is likely to make hardcore Fallout fans negative, and descriptions of classes, prestige classes etc. suitable for deathclaws will only take up place that could be used for something else instead.

None of that tells me the option shouldn't be there

GMs, and I'm speaking from experience here, will rewrite any parts of a history they feel like, even the holy Star Wars Canon, if it fits their purpose.

The option should still exist, but let GMs(and players) know how rare they are.

Like I said, it's up to the individual GMs and Player as to whether it'll be used. There's nothing more frustrating than reading a source book and saying "Wait, they didn't include X"

Well, as I said, if they include deathclaws, the individual GM can go "Wait, they didn't include talking raccoons, intelligent scorpions, sentient spore plants!", "they didn't include any stuff from Van Buren!", etc. It's all up to the individual GM, of course, but it doesn't mean it has to be in the main book - it's not as every bit of the Fallout world has to be there. Let's keep the basic stuff in the main book, and leave optional races for future ones, especially ones that require entirely new classes, prestige classes, feats etc. Let's keep the deathclaws in the bestiary, a creative GM will be able to convert it to a race anyway.

Ausir wrote:Well, as I said, if they include deathclaws, the individual GM can go "Wait, they didn't include talking raccoons, intelligent scorpions, sentient spore plants!", "they didn't include any stuff from Van Buren!", etc. It's all up to the individual GM, of course, but it doesn't mean it has to be in the main book - it's not as every bit of the Fallout world has to be there. Let's keep the basic stuff in the main book, and leave optional races for future ones.

Except none of those were available as party members (and as you said the Racoons never even made it in), and someone who knows the source will want to play a Deathclaw, I guarantee it.

Could you imagine if WotC had left Halflings out of the Players Handbook? I can honestly say few people play halflings in standard D&D, but they'd have raised hell if they'd had to wait for the next book to get the stats.

I'm looking at this from a Gamer point of view, I know what frustrates Gamers & GMs... more work. We are, by default, a lazy lot. anything that makes our work easier means we're more likely to play. We don't want to wait for the next book for the info we want. We will, but it's a pain. This is something that can VERY easily be included and take up no more than a couple pages. And I personally would prefer those couple pages in the Players book than a later book.

And I certainly hope we're not just marketing to the Hardcore Fallout fans... that'd be a mistake. And no matter what, they'll bitch. I also know that no matter what I(as a gamer) will bitch... I'd just like a little less to bitch about as I will actually play the game.

You also had dogs, robots and cyberdogs as party members, it doesn't mean they all should be available as playable races in the main book. And Goris, the party member, was unique even for a talking deathclaw.

And while the raccoons never made it in, they are mentioned in one holodisk .

And why did WotC keep drows out of the Player's Handbook? I mean, there are lots of people who have read Drizzt books and want to play a drow! Well, that's mostly because drows joining an adventuring party are very rare, and most of them are ruthless killers - deathclaws also don't normally join adventuring parties, and all of them but one small pack are ferocious beasts.

You also had dogs, robots and cyberdogs as party members, it doesn't mean they all should be available as playable races in the main book.

I fully agree with that. And if your player wants to (seriously)play one of those you need a new player.

I asked my friend(also a big fallout fan, even ran the GURPS fallout game I was in) what he wanted to see in the Main book. The first thing he said was "RUles for the other races, Super Mutants, Deathclaws and Ghouls."

I honestly don't see why this is such a major issue It's two, three pages tops that will make the Gamers(Those most likely to buy, use and keep the book, the people you want to make happy) happy. They may not really care that it was included, but they'd certainly notice if it was ommited, we're strange like that.

Quite honestly, I'm tired of talking about it. I want them included, that's my opinion, as a gamer.

Well, that's most likely because deathclaws were playable in Fallout Tactics (which was a huge continuity error), and because they were included in Jason Mical's Fallout PnP (with that part being erroneously based on Tactics in the fact that all deathclaws are capable of speech, not just one pack).

And anyway, I'd bet more players want to play a dual-wielding drow than a halfling or a gnome. And adding deathclaws will also mean adding deathclaw feats and deathclaw classes, as they are very different than regular races. That's probably also why WotC doesn't include non-humanoid races in their main books - because they require lots of additional rules.