I am fading to the end [Heroin v. Alcohol]

[Stalagmite]

To be fair I read the same thing as Manoil did recently, think it was on the BBC news website, may be wrong.

The simple truth: You have a higher chance of dying from a hangover than withdrawals from heroin, even if it seems otherwise whilst experiencing it. That is all.

Actual addiction on either substance varies for the individual.

[Cakester]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3497/templateja.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1d1CgRBkqs the most beautiful temple i have everm ade

[Yonmanc]

To be fair I read the same thing as Manoil did recently, think it was on the BBC news website, may be wrong.

The simple truth: You have a higher chance of dying from a hangover than withdrawals from heroin, even if it seems otherwise whilst experiencing it. That is all.

Actual addiction on either substance varies for the individual.

Good point indeed!

[Username]

To be fair I read the same thing as Manoil did recently, think it was on the BBC news website, may be wrong.

The simple truth: You have a higher chance of dying from a hangover than withdrawals from heroin, even if it seems otherwise whilst experiencing it. That is all.

Actual addiction on either substance varies for the individual.

Yeah that's definitely true!
Hash takes over as a more harmful substance in the longterm of moderate use though. This because from what I understand certain traces of hash remain in the nervesystem for long time while alkohol can be digested and even used as energy.

[Blargh]

COULD YOU FADE A BIT FUCKING QUICKER EH MAUDE THIS DELAY IS INTOLERABLE

[Tofu Man]

Yeah that's definitely true!
Hash takes over as a more harmful substance in the longterm of moderate use though. This because from what I understand certain traces of hash remain in the nervesystem for long time while alkohol can be digested and even used as energy.

But then you never saw Bob get home high and beat his wife to a pulp.

Face it, the overall effect alcohol has, not only in the life of the "addict" but on the lives of his or her friends and family, is far more nefarious than all the other drugs put together, let alone any single one.

Then ther-WAAZUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

COULD YOU FADE A BIT FUCKING QUICKER EH MAUDE THIS DELAY IS INTOLERABLE

[Frater Perdurabo]

I recently read that alcohol is technically more dangerous than heroin with all factors (of the individual and those affected) combined. Comment?

It's a matter of quantity.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Yeah that's definitely true!
Hash takes over as a more harmful substance in the longterm of moderate use though. This because from what I understand certain traces of hash remain in the nervesystem for long time while alkohol can be digested and even used as energy.

But then you never saw Bob get home high and beat his wife to a pulp.

Face it, the overall effect alcohol has, not only in the life of the "addict" but on the lives of his or her friends and family, is far more nefarious than all the other drugs put together, let alone any single one.

Then ther-WAAZUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

COULD YOU FADE A BIT FUCKING QUICKER EH MAUDE THIS DELAY IS INTOLERABLE

http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2010/06/met ... m-on-buddy
(yes, I know it's not about heroin, but it is an illustration)

And what exactly are you saying? That heroin addicts live functionally in their households with their families?

[Taco-Hero]

He's arguing with himself, but he can't hear him.

Oh, I see, I think.

[Retlaw83]

But then you never saw Bob get home high and beat his wife to a pulp.

I and the majority of my friends drink regularly. No one has ever died or needed to go to the hospital. I only know of one guy who hit his girlfriend while drunk, and he no longer drinks on account of it.

Face it, the overall effect alcohol has, not only in the life of the "addict" but on the lives of his or her friends and family, is far more nefarious than all the other drugs put together, let alone any single one.

That's an absurd notion. However, I wouldn't argue that alcoholism is more common than other types of drug addiction, but that comes down to availability.

Also, in the case of the guy who beat his girlfriend, he wasn't an alcoholic; that's classified as a chemical dependency on alcohol. There is no doubt, however, that he had a drinking problem.

[Tofu Man]

http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2010/06/met ... m-on-buddy
(yes, I know it's not about heroin, but it is an illustration)

And what exactly are you saying? That heroin addicts live functionally in their households with their families?

Ok Frater, let's ignore the long history of US born serial killers and general nutcases DISCLAIMER - If you're a citizen of the U.S.A. and feel insulted by the previous half-sentence, go back and read it again. If you've read it (no less than 10 times) and you still feel insulted, fret not. There's a number you can call. I just don't have it on me at the moment.) and assume for a second that all that happened on that one example you provided had to do only with the mushrooms he ingested. Let's imagine he's just a normal everyday kinda guy (and by looking at his photo, it's pretty clear he isn't) that had a bad trip and did what he did. My argument against that is that for every guy like him that does what he did, there's a hundred other guys that drink instead of doing shrooms that either get home and beat their wives or kids, that get in car and kill someone drunk driving (or themselves), that drive their friends and family to near insanity (I dunno if you've ever had to deal with a booze addict, from what I know it's quite taxing, to say the least) with their madcap antics and general obnoxiousness.

To put it plain and simple, add all the drugs and all the addicts (and no, I'm not privvy to this specific info, I'm just throwing numbers out there) and you'd end up with something like huh, 10-15% of the general population (and that's stretching it a bit methinks). You surely have a lot more people consuming alcohol than that don't you?

I have to say, as a smoker, I'm quite surprised and also somewhat insulted no one's started picking on us yet. (WAIT FOR IT......)
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING - I apologise for the previous disclaimer. The person responsible has been sacked. Oh and don't smoke. Smoking's bad.

@Retlaw - I'm not saying that everyone who drinks is an addict nor am I saying that everytime you drink you're killing the planet or somesuch. Simply stating that the plain availability and low price of alcohol (not to mention the fact that people usually regard it as "entertainment" and then fret on hard drugs) makes it a prime intoxicant when compared to other types of drugs.

Don't get me wrong, I drink myself (though hardly ever to the point of inebriation) and I'm not looking to sound patronizing and claim that "people can't hold their drinks, alcohol should be banned" or anything like that. Simply pointing out the inconsistent treatment society gives to some substances when the whole lot of them is potentially dangerous, not to mention lethal.

I'm not arguing definitions here, I'm arguing the effects substances might have on people, whether the user itself or his or her relatives/friends/others and whether clinically sick or not.

[Tofu Man]

To further the discussion, (I know, enough with the walls of text and all but there's fuck all else to do at work at this time o' day) let's take our own experiences on it into account.

You've mentioned a guy beating a girlfriend as a result of drinking. That relate, I have two cases. A father of a close friend of mine who drinks (at absurd levels) that threatened to beat his wife on some occasions, that threatened suicide on another and then more recently hit his son (my friend, and a 26 year old "kid" at that). That's one. The other involves that same friend's former girlfriend whose friend/roommate crashed her Corsa (while pissed) with 2 other girls inside. Result? One dead, one w/ heavy injuries (recuperated fully as far as I know), one with light injuries.

So out of 2 people on here we've 3 cases involving booze, 0 cases involving other drugs. All of the people in my examples drink, smoke, get high and the friend's ex did E, at least when they were together.

I could also tell you the time when our group's "guy with the pot" got stoned at my place and started getting paranoid. One slap to the face and one wet bed in the morning, and that's about the worst story I got that involves drugs. Mate couldn't remember shit in the morning so I made him sleep on the same matress twice before I told him.

[Retlaw83]

I have seen innumerable cocaine related fits of violence, and I know a couple people who get violent when high on pot. The guy who hit his girlfriend isn't a "friend" so much as a guy I know.

Plus, I'd imagine you and I are the types of people who don't hang out with many who do hard drugs. People on PCP can fly off the handle at any moment, and heroine addicts rarely know what they're doing. Most potheads I knew treat marijuana like a lifestyle instead of a recreational activity, and fall into the same traps as addicts of hard drugs without being physically addicted.

There are quite a lot of people who can't handle drinking. They shouldn't drink. But to claim knocking back a few beers occasionally is unequivocally on the same level as someone who does heroine and is addicted is absurdity.

[Yonmanc]

Speaking as somebody who drinks, smokes and occasionally partakes in cannabis, I must say I've NEVER seed anybody act violent on ciggarettes or pot. As forbooze, occasionally. Coke? Yes. Booze and coke? My stepdads a cop and most of the peeps he arrests are those who mix booze and coke together, almost always for acts of extreme violence.

[Retlaw83]

I must say I've NEVER seed anybody act violent on ciggarettes or pot.

It's highly unusual and I was shocked, too, but I've seen it. It wasn't extreme violence, but really sloppy attempts at fighting over mild insults.

[Username]

Sorry I thought you guys were talking about cannabis (hash). Heroin being less harmful than alcohol? what a load of bull. I must've misread simply because I couldn't phantom such a stupid claim.


Here's part of the reason why this is bull and why statistics should now and forever be called a form a lying: economic costs and "international damage".


Of course alcohol costs society more than heroin. FAR MORE people use it.
That was one of the criteria used to rank a drugs harm on society.



Again, the reason is even explained in the article:

"Crack cocaine is more addictive than alcohol but because alcohol is so widely used there are hundreds of thousands of people who crave alcohol every day, and those people will go to extraordinary lengths to get it."

Fuck man, read the article first yourselves instead of reading the topic.

[Tofu Man]

(...) "friend" so much as a guy I know.

Fixed.

But to claim knocking back a few beers occasionally is unequivocally on the same level as someone who does heroine and is addicted is absurdity.

That's not what I claimed. I compared the volume of alcohol related incidents and drug related incidents and hinted on why some of these substances should be deemed drugs and illegalized while booze (or cigarretes for that matter) is not.


On my own experience, you never know who does coke until shit hits the fan, and when it does it's just usually some rich kid looking for attention. As for heroin, I've known of one guy who's recuperated and one guy who hasn't. On both occasions they were marginalized pretty early on, not only by their groups of friends and families but by their own accord as well, apparently dissapearing off the grid, and into their own little world. You'd see the one who recuperated sometimes come bum a smoke off ya, but I can't say I or anyone I know that knew those guys ever felt threatened. I don't know of anyone on PCP.

As I understand it, PCP doesn't have the same sort of influence in little Yurop that it does in the States. Although I did find it amusing, while watching a documentary on the subject (this in Philladelphia IIRC), to see 3 burly american police officers (you know the type, 6 foot dudes, arms as wide as their heads) struggle to restrain a lanky 5'5 dude on a violent PCP-related fit. Guy went fucking nutter just like that, for no reason.


And c'mon Mac, how many times did you see chavs throwing cock fights for whatever reason outside clubs. That's not drink or drug related, that's just them being fucking twats.

[Tofu Man]

Also, lol at hijacking cakestar's thread.

[Retlaw83]

That's not what I claimed.

But that's what the article claimed, more or less, and I assumed you to be on the side of the article. Apologies for misunderstanding.

You and I are on the same page, for the most part.

[Manoil]

Also, lol at hijacking cakestar's thread.

He didn't mind, he was too busy fading