Duck and Cover

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:06 pm**

Still, I'm imagining the could increase Bottlecaps credibility as currency by putting a seal or some similar distinction mark to them by a Central authority(be it NCR, BoS or someone else) and have everyone just accept it.

It could be helpfull on creating some quests too, like, maybe, go and kill those bottlecaps seal Forging Raiders(or retrieve the forging equipm. or something)

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:50 pm**

Flamescreen wrote:Still, I'm imagining the could increase Bottlecaps credibility as currency by putting a seal or some similar distinction mark to them by a Central authority(be it NCR, BoS or someone else) and have everyone just accept it.

If they want to do something like that they should diversify money a bit. Relations between powers would affect how they valued each others currency, for one. You would also have to keep different types of currency in order to ensure that you would have purchasing power wherever you went. (Too bad this can't be done in FoT thanks to some hard-coding...)

Flamescreen wrote:It could be helpfull on creating some quests too, like, maybe, go and kill those bottlecaps seal Forging Raiders(or retrieve the forging equipm. or something)

That would be a decent variation on the "take/destroy X item from Y faction" quest. (There really aren't many types of quests, it's only in the details that you have any semblance of originality/quality that sparks interest.)

OTB

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:59 pm**

It would be nice to have a list of the possible quest types in the modding forum, you know. Would you happen to know all the base ones?

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2002 11:08 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote: If they want to do something like that they should diversify money a bit. Relations between powers would affect how they valued each others currency, for one. You would also have to keep different types of currency in order to ensure that you would have purchasing power wherever you went.

Which is one of the things I've liked about Ultima VII, Part II. About 4 types of currency.

Another thing would be weights of supplies that a certain area needs, and bonuses you could get in barter for selling them there. The script/bottlecaps/whatever would be considered "trade neutral" in that area and a flat conversion rate to another area's. It's mostly used to make your backpack a little lighter while giving you a good base to trade on.

Town to town, they could be requiring something or the other where it gives you more of a bargaining weight to your side of the trade. Or they might have more weapons or food than they need and it's value is a bit lessened. This way, it would be more beneficial to sell things here or there, depending on what types, but it's best to make sure that the trade weight isn't too much to prevent mass-cash exploits, but profitable enough if your bartering skill is high enough and you know where to trade.

Barter skill could also hint to the player that X kind of item is needed, or Y kind of item seems common, but...I think that would make it too easy. It should be obvious that if a location has a lot of guns, they wouldn't pay much for any old gun. If there's a specific special gun and the person with a lot of guns in their shop knows the real value, you may be able to get more for it. An average fellow who doesn't and has no need for that gun, he would save his money or barter selection for things he does know about and value.

All this does take a bit of a trade behaviour and preferences table...but it's not that hard to do. Where it WOULD get tricky is when you'd put in if it calculated the need of an area with the presence of actual items and other factors. But that in itself is often too much for a single-player game, and perhaps best left for MMORPG or multi-player fare, where you could be in competition to take advantage of supply and demand over other merchants.

Just imparting a bit of trade balancing from my MUD experiences...

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:24 am**

Still, I'm imagining the could increase Bottlecaps credibility as currency by putting a seal or some similar distinction mark to them by a Central authority(be it NCR, BoS or someone else) and have everyone just accept it.

A central authority does not really fit in Fallout, may it be NCR, BoS or whatever. I don't really care of an official seal or any kind of modern economy features in Fallout, bottle caps just seem a natural way to replace money in a post-apocalyptic world. Kinda like they used animal hides in the past.

Different currencies sound OK, and logical too. Each settlement have come up with their own currencies after the war, for example mine scrip in mining districts or bottle caps elsewhere. Also, it would eliminate the possibility of becoming insanely rich eliminating the importance of money/barter(previous Fallouts), as you'd have to earn the local currencies instead of having 20k caps right away. The 'gambling trick' shouldn't be too effective.

Out of bottlecaps(Fallout) and money(Fallout2) I'd rather see the comeback of bottlecaps in Fallout 3. But on the other hand, bartering with items and the bartering skill should be the main focus, that's what made the bartering system in Fallouts so interesting. Money/bottlecaps should be secondary, mainly just to balance the deal.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 1:37 am**

If I recall correctly, caps were a stamped trade unit as made by the Hub.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 1:48 am**

Rosh wrote:Just imparting a bit of trade balancing from my MUD experiences...

That was a pretty interesting post, actually.

I agree that having Barter skill give info on the value of items in locations would be a bit much. I think it would be better to have to talk to people about things. For instance the local caravan master would probably be a good person to talk to since he/she gets around, as well as that they would have an idea of what is getting taken where. Perhaps the trigger for the thread w/him/her would be a certain Barter skill level, and/or an IN requirement.

Vasikka wrote:A central authority does not really fit in Fallout, may it be NCR, BoS or whatever. I don't really care of an official seal or any kind of modern economy features in Fallout, bottle caps just seem a natural way to replace money in a post-apocalyptic world. Kinda like they used animal hides in the past.

It doesn't have to be a "central(ized) authority" in the sense of governing body. It could easily be a trade syndicate (e.g. the Water Merchants) whose interest it is to ensure that there is a stable currency in the area that eases the often tiresome aspects of a barter economy.

As for BCs being like animal skins used as a medium of exchange, that's not the case. Animal skins have always been traded because they were valuable in, and of themselves while BCs have no use, other than to buy things with.

Vasikka wrote:Different currencies sound OK, and logical too. Each settlement have come up with their own currencies after the war, for example mine scrip in mining districts or bottle caps elsewhere. Also, it would eliminate the possibility of becoming insanely rich eliminating the importance of money/barter(previous Fallouts), as you'd have to earn the local currencies instead of having 20k caps right away. The 'gambling trick' shouldn't be too effective.

Having currency not be accepted from one settlement to another would be a way to help curb the "gambling trick" all right. If nothing else, you could include traders who served as money changers, who would convert "foreign" currencies into the local tender. Charging a hefty commission in the process, of course...

Vasikka wrote:Out of bottlecaps(Fallout) and money(Fallout2) I'd rather see the comeback of bottlecaps in Fallout 3. But on the other hand, bartering with items and the bartering skill should be the main focus, that's what made the bartering system in Fallouts so interesting. Money/bottlecaps should be secondary, mainly just to balance the deal.

I agree that BCs were better currency than coins. While the logic behind them has a gaping hole in them (unless I can find that mention of the Water Merchants backing them, but that may have been an invented memory) the idea and the graphic representation (i.e. a bunch of nasty, rusty bottlecaps) was one of the many, many things that helped make FO1 so damned good.

However, if some of the above mentioned things were to make their way into the FO universe in order to expand on the Barter skill, I'm all for it. I'd like to see more of a focus on the non-combat aspects of FO3 then to focus on yet more weapons, yet more armor*, and yet more nifty gadgets that qualify as a "better mousetrap" (read: "mutant trap").

OTB

*This, even though I'd say that something needs to be done about the yawning chasm between CA Mk II and PA. I realize that PA is supposed to be the pinnacle of armor tech, but from a game balance perspective it makes PA almost a necessity since the end game enemies are basically geared toward breaching it.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:21 am**

I think Katrina mentioned that the merchants of the Hub backed bottlecaps.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:07 am**

OnTheBounce wrote: That was a pretty interesting post, actually.

Ah, thanks. Just some things I've been working on for a couple of MUDs and will be in on a new codebase.

I agree that having Barter skill give info on the value of items in locations would be a bit much. I think it would be better to have to talk to people about things. For instance the local caravan master would probably be a good person to talk to since he/she gets around, as well as that they would have an idea of what is getting taken where. Perhaps the trigger for the thread w/him/her would be a certain Barter skill level, and/or an IN requirement.

The IN and Barter skill to know what is needed or what other cities might need would be a good idea, or perhaps a Speech requirement so that you can wheedle the info to compete with the trader, unless you do them a favor elsewise.

But a per-item or per-item.class situation would work great for a number of ways. Not only could you just set up a modifier for some areas on a wide level, but for things like the hooch smuggling into Vault City. How about just a modifier that you can just sell it and get a higher monetary trade amount rather than a speech option?

A dynamic need is best left for when a lot of trading is being done on a wide scale, like in MMORPGs, but the weight of needed items should be taken into more consideration. It adds in more flavor to the locations, and it would bring in another player archetype for the wasteland: The Trader.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:29 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote:The mines in Redding.

(Gimme a sack full of rusty bottlecaps instead, though.)

OTB

Which always made me wonder why Redding wasn't the richest town in the game.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:16 pm**

well for one everyone was addicted to jet. Alsothe machines weren't working well

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 9:33 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote:

It doesn't have to be a "central(ized) authority" in the sense of governing body. It could easily be a trade syndicate (e.g. the Water Merchants) whose interest it is to ensure that there is a stable currency in the area that eases the often tiresome aspects of a barter economy.

Well, when I said "Central Authority", I didn't mean it like a North American government or something. I'm imaging that people in Fallout would revert to older ways, and if you travel way back to the past, the currency was dictated by the local city in power and the rest while keeping their own were happy to trade with it, much like today's dollar value. Certainly the Water Merchants would be a good substitute since I consider them a local power.

OnTheBounce wrote:Having currency not be accepted from one settlement to another would be a way to help curb the "gambling trick" all right. If nothing else, you could include traders who served as money changers, who would convert "foreign" currencies into the local tender. Charging a hefty commission in the process, of course...

Indeed a good idea. I hope they do implement it when they make FO3. With a bit of an imagination you can find many stories to do with them.

OnTheBounce wrote: However, if some of the above mentioned things were to make their way into the FO universe in order to expand on the Barter skill, I'm all for it. I'd like to see more of a focus on the non-combat aspects of FO3 then to focus on yet more weapons, yet more armor*, and yet more nifty gadgets that qualify as a "better mousetrap" (read: "mutant trap").

Personally, I want the ballance that is typical of FO: ways to do stuff through diplomacy and also through more violent means. If they work on the existing methods more would do it fine. I like Saint Proverbius' suggestion on diplomacy in the middle of combat. I always wanted to see something like that in a FO game.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 10:51 pm**

Flamescreen wrote:Personally, I want the ballance that is typical of FO: ways to do stuff through diplomacy and also through more violent means. If they work on the existing methods more would do it fine. I like Saint Proverbius' suggestion on diplomacy in the middle of combat. I always wanted to see something like that in a FO game.

Then there's the 'third way', sneaking and thieving. I'd like to see this aspect as well expanded in Fallout 3, making it possible to use thiefly methods to complete most of the game. Although stealing/lockpicking skills were useful and sneaking somewhat useful(traps was useless), previous Fallouts didn't utilize all the potential.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:03 pm**

VasikkA wrote:Although stealing/lockpicking skills were useful and sneaking somewhat useful(traps was useless), previous Fallouts didn't utilize all the potential.

At least Traps was more useful in FO2 than in FO. While the "Raised Plates" were sort of a generic cross between something Indiana Jones might step on and a land mine it was a good deal better than walking along, detecting a trap and then not being able to do anything about it.

You're right about the "thief" not being all that handy in FO or FO2. While there were some things that they could accomplish that other could not (or not w/o massacring a town, like getting into Killian's safe) and many quests/goals were open to them, in the end it was usually more handy to have SG tagged than Traps.

I'm going to check out Katrina now...

OTB

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:15 pm**

Raised plates never really bothered me. You didn't need a high PE to spot them and could simply just walk around them. I'd like to set traps(like in BG) and lead the enemy to them, not just a skill which basically unarms a trap. The traps should be damn effective too, to attract players to use and improve the skill.

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:53 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote:
VasikkA wrote:You're right about the "thief" not being all that handy in FO or FO2. While there were some things that they could accomplish that other could not (or not w/o massacring a town, like getting into Killian's safe) OTB
Actually I always managed to crack Killian's safe without being a thief charecter. The lock itself is quite easy to pick, the main problem is going through the door.
I don't remember excactly how, but it's possible to walk right through the door. Maybe Killian went through and I followed him... I can't quite remember.

Posted: **Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:32 am**

Regarding Bottlecaps:

Yes, it is Katrina (the greeter in Shady Sands) that mentions that Bottlecaps are backed by the merchants of The Hub. Thank you, Doyle. I was beginning to think that I was loosing my mind.

Flamescreen: Yes, interesting stories can be invented about currency. Remember Diogenes of Sinope? He was exiled from Sinope for counterfeiting.

(IIRC it had to do w/the correct mixture of Electrum, which should be 50%/50% gold/silver, but since everyone always wanted to skimp on the gold they soon fell out of use.)

OTB

Posted: **Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:51 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote: Yes, interesting stories can be invented about currency. Remember Diogenes of Sinope? He was exiled from Sinope for counterfeiting. (IIRC it had to do w/the correct mixture of Electrum, which should be 50%/50% gold/silver, but since everyone always wanted to skimp on the gold they soon fell out of use.)

OTB

This could be only slightly changed to work on any FO/FoT game. I always say that you can always go back to history to add credibility to your stories or find new ones, like the one you mentioned. Hm, Diogenes, why does that ring a bell?(apart from the historical reference)

Posted: **Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:37 pm**

Flamescreen wrote:I always say that you can always go back to history to add credibility to your stories or find new ones, like the one you mentioned.

Oh yes. The vast majority of my inspiration comes from history that I extrapolate/modify to fit the FO setting, or doing the same to speculative fiction/sci-fi. (Just don't go overboard like FASA did w/the BattleTech universe where they practically rewrote history and had everyone stompin around in 'mechs instead of armor/tanks/whatever.)

Flamescreen wrote:Hm, Diogenes, why does that ring a bell?(apart from the historical reference)

Hmm...probably because you, like he, are carrying around a lantern in broad daylight while looking for an honest man. ::tries to look innocent::

OTB

Posted: **Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:01 pm**

OnTheBounce wrote: Oh yes. The vast majority of my inspiration comes from history that I extrapolate/modify to fit the FO setting, or doing the same to speculative fiction/sci-fi. (Just don't go overboard like FASA did w/the BattleTech universe where they practically rewrote history and had everyone stompin around in 'mechs instead of armor/tanks/whatever.)

OTB

You might want to check out the book "What if?" edited by Robert Cowley.... It's collection of "what if..." or counterfactual essays by 20 top military historians on how just a small change in one event could have changed the whole history of the world as we know it. I'm thoroughly enjoying it and I'm sure it could provide a stack of new "Fallouty" historical twists....

Duck and Cover

Tandi, Harold and dogmeat