Duck and Cover

I still say something is serious wrong - I didn't have anywhere NEAR the problems that you are describing. If you think it'll help, I can email you with some really specific hints as to where to go n' stuff.

Or maybe you just suck?

:mrgreen:

Heh, heh, yeah something is f.u. - maybe the "game balance" module didn't install correctly Unless I missed the secret room with all of the power armour, vindicators, and strength modules I think I've got everyone as well-armed and organized as they are ever going to be. In fact going through the map with a fine-toothed comb (aka editor), I found only two armours - one enviro and one leather. Not very helpful when these guys have no armour at the start. Donna was helped somewhat with the enviro and let her survive a little longer but she still couldn't hold up against too much. Send me your walkthrough if you'd like.

And another thing, when you first enter the underground entranceway from the moat to the base, 5 times out of ten my squad gets shot at by enemies shooting through from the floors above?!?! Is that intentional or the standard "tile hole" bug?

Tha'd be the occulsion data f-ing up. It doesn't happen with Shadow because "they" don't detected him so they don't shoot at him. The others, however... Try and crawl or shuffle so they don't detect the PCs as easilty.

Or kill 'em via Rocket Launcher/grenades. Assuming you have any...

BTW, Fred starts with armor.

I'll email you when I get a chance...

EDIT: Out of curiousity, what difficulty are you playing the map on? I totally forgot about it, so I tested the map on "easy."

Max-Violence wrote:EDIT: Out of curiousity, what difficulty are you playing the map on? I totally forgot about it, so I tested the map on "easy."

I think thats where the cats buried...

Um no, it's probably a tile hole because the occlusion data is ONLY used to determine wether or not a tile is rendered on the screen. If a tile is "occluded out", you still can't shoot through it (think of it as if the bounding box was still there stopping bullets or something).

Red wrote:Um no, it's probably a tile hole because the occlusion data is ONLY used to determine wether or not a tile is rendered on the screen. If a tile is "occluded out", you still can't shoot through it (think of it as if the bounding box was still there stopping bullets or something).

Yea, thats what Max just said? What do you mean...?

Tile hole, occulsion data, whatEVER! It's still a bug in the game, right?

Max-Violence wrote:Tile hole, occulsion data, whatEVER! It's still a bug in the game, right?

Well what I mean is that the reason Jimmy is finding your map so hard is that hes probaly playing it on "normal" and you tested it on "easy".

Eh?

What I'm saying is that if the player is seen but SHOULDN'T be seen (or is shot but shouldn't be shot) from that location, it's a problem in the design of the map. It's not a bug in the game nor an occlusion problem.

Occlusion only determines what' s drawn (as not to draw tiles which aren't visible and thus save processing time), it doesn't affect in ANY way gameplay.

A hole in the map however can unbalance things, but that's up to the mapper to avoid that.

Note that I'm not saying there's a bug per say as I've not tested the map, but the only thing you can blame occlusion of doing is either not removing enough displayed tiles, or removing too many... And the "not enough" is usually fixed by placing invisible ethereal tiles in it's place so that issue is a bug, but a workaround is provided.

I don't see how I caused that "hole" thing to happen - I'm sure I didn't forget to place some tiles somewhere. Besides, the same thing happens with wall tiles sometimes, both in the normal game and in fanmaps. Having the two wall tiles right next to each other is about all that a guy can do

I'm hoping to take a look at this map at the weekend - providing I find time to finish "Quartz" and fight off the growing temptation to buy UT2003....or Battlefield 1942.... or The Thing.... or Black Hawk Down...

So many choices, eh Vik? I may go out and buy UT too. I'll have to catch you on the DM!

Heh, I just bought Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 today, so work on Revenge2 is gonna be delayed a bit... :mrgreen:

I DL'd this one, got through the first half once I figured out how to do the required killing, but am stumped by the second part.
Are all of these characters, with the exception of Donna, really supposed to have strengths of 2, so that they can't use the guns they start with : Looks like a pretty hopeless fight based on what I have been through so far.
One very important point I think needs fixing is to reduce the number of items that Shaddow needs to fetch. Once the path was cleared out, it was just tedious to have to run back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, to deliver the goods. Either Shaddow needs a larger carry capacity or the weight of the deliverables should be reduced.

Some_time

Eh, none of the characters have a ST of 2. One has 3, a couple have 4, one as 5, and one has 10. They can all use the weapons they start with.

If not, you screwed up the installation of the map. More specifically, the entities. Read the readme very carefully, as some of the entities go in one folder and the rest go in another.

I could be specific if I knew where you have yer FOT game installed to, i.e.: C:\Program Files\14 Degrees East\Fallout Tactics, C:\Games\Fallout Tactics, C:\Fallout Tactics (that's the install I use), etc.

By the way, you do have the game patched to v1.27, right?

I am using 1.27, and used Zip-It to unpack everything. It looks like everything went to the right places.

The problem may be that I installed it into a FoT version that I had earlier used as a test of the FoT_WW2 demo from a while back. So I was playing with characters having "covert ops" and "marksmanship" attributes. I try and install new downloads into FoT packages that I am not actively using for anything, so each partition of my hard drive has its own copy

All of the percentages for skills look right, but except for Donna, almost all of the stats are 2's, with a couple of 1's thrown in.

Some_Time

Yea, you might want to install the map into an un-messed with "version" of FOT 1.27

One would think that would go without saying...

Just finished.

Overall a very good map.

Large enough, with the right amount of detail to provide interesting scenery and lines-of-sight. No problems with the map editing except for a couple of booby-traps which did no damage when set off, which I don't really consider a bad thing! No wierd shooting through walls, floors or ceilings noted.

First part of the scenario played out ok, but it would have been nice if there were a few more explosives hidden around inside for Shaddow to find. I spent quite a bit of time sneaking him around inside and could have done a lot more, but I ran out of explosives and mines. Replaying this map would not just be a repeat of the first time through, because I learned a lot about the internal layout playing the second part, and can think of a lot of things I could do different with Shaddow. Shaddow seems too weak at first, but you just have to adjust your tactics to compensate. It would have been nice if his knife throwing was just a bit better, but I've never played that many Ninja characters so maybe there are better ways for him to engage wide-awake enemies.

Second part of the scenario was nice, but I think needs just a few MINOR adjustments. First, these folks need some ARMOR. I took too many casualties from "First Shot Kills", where my initial discovery that I was in a line of sight was when a character DIED. Lots of serious wounds too, but those can be healed. Those first shot KIAs cause me to hit the RELOAD button. During the intro you tell Shaddow to collect ammo, but the second part crew has too little ammo to start, what happed to all of it! Donna's machine gun uses up a LOT of ammo.

If I play this again I will have Shaddow spend time collecting ammo and guns and such and create a cache someplace where the second half crew can collect it before they get into action. You say in the intro that he doesn't need to do that, but I think he really should. :idea:

Finally, I realize you tailored the second half crew so that characters would have specific roles, and so that everyone wouldn't be carrying a sniper rifle. Thats OK, different roles for different folks is probably the way just about everyone plays the basic FoT game. But in this case it slowed the game down a bit without adding much, IMHO. You have to use one character to check for traps on a door, then bring in another to pick the lock on the door, then someone else to open the door and not get shot dead.... I suspect very few people develop characters with high lock pick skills who don't also have high traps skills. Those two just go together.

I would suggest some rearrangement of characteristics, equiptment and skill levels would help out. Not a lot of changes, but minor increases and some evening out of disparate stuff.

I look forward to the next map in the series, and hope you continue making such interesting situations.

Judge_Iceberg

Judge Iceberg wrote: If I play this again I will have Shaddow spend time collecting ammo and guns and such and create a cache someplace where the second half crew can collect it before they get into action. You say in the intro that he doesn't need to do that, but I think he really should. :idea:

That's called "replay value" - learning that one could've done something the first time, then do it the second time, and note how different things are than the first time

Thanks for that feedback, bud!

I agree - The skills/roles are a bit screwy, but Revenge was going to be a campaign originally, so the entities were set up as such, and it would've taken quite some time to redo all of 'em for only one map.

You'll be happy to know that Revenge2 and onward won't suffer from such oversights :mrgreen:

BTW, there's armor in the map - Shadow starts with some, as does Fred. There's (IIRC) 2 other peices of armor in the map - Enviro and Leather.

And yer right - Donna's MG eats ammo pretty quickly, kinda like real MG's

Thanks again! Now go play some other of my maps (and/or other SP maps) and post about 'em!

Oops! :oops:

Second time through I have discovered multiple places where guys in the lower level corridors can and will be shot at by guys on the ground level. I probably didn't spend enough time with a large group of people there the first time.

First time Shaddow cleaned out the lower level himself, everyone else just ran through the area. This second time Shaddow did only the bare minimum killing in the lower level, and when using the full crew for the cleanup, they were fired on multiple times by folks on the ground level. They show back too.

This second time Shaddow used the available explosives to clean up other areas, including setting multiple charges to be detonated by the second team. Seems that there is always somebody someplace who will see most of them being killed with explosives! Of course that doesn't prevent Shaddow from setting the charges, leaving the detonator near the start position, and letting someone from the second team push the button. Shaddow can make a big dent in the population of sleeping reavers, and some of the patrollers also, to facilitate the entry of the second team into house at the top of the north stairs.

Also, despite Shaddows collecting lots of ammo I am still encountering lots of ammo problems.

I will confess now to having made a modification to your map before I started. I added five sets of ghoul armor near the start area, so I could armor folks up. I tried forcing my way across the bridge, WITH the armor in use, and still couldn't do it, so the armor didn't have a big effect on play balance. But it HAS kept folks alive after taking their first hit, I'm out of meds at this point, so they are not being healed up. We shall see if I have anyone left when I kill the last reaver, assuming I can actually get through the second half of them with anyone left alive. :roll:

J I