Duck and Cover

vehicles in fallout,
... animal driven, horse/brahmin etc... or rudimentary dune buggy type vehicles (or scrambler motorbikes), possibly run on fusion cells OR methane produced from whatever animal/human's feces, although, if this was the case the vehicle(s) wouldnt have much of a travel radius unless other spots of civilisation had the means to produce methane and store it.

speaking of which, does anyone know if this would actually be achievable in a post apoc setting? ( i think its fairly basic, but i could be way off)

DarkUnderlord wrote:My skills would be:

COMBAT:
-----------
Unarmed - Unarmed combat.
Melee - Skill with melee weapons
Throwing - Chuckin' stuf.
Small Guns - One-handed firearms. (pistols)
Rifles - Hunting rifle, assault rifle etc.
Big Guns - MORE than two handed firearms. (rocket launcher, minigun). We ain't talking two hands here, the way they hold that minigun in FO, you're using your whole body.

Science - Programming and using the operating systems of computers/robots + Physics, higher mathematics, plasma/laser technology.
Repair - Working on devices that are primarily electronic (televisions, radios, broken computers, some generators, etc.). + Working on devices that are primarily mechanical (most cars, lots of weapons, etc.)
Speech - Persuasion, intimidation, subterfuge and pals. + A measure of effective influence over party allies.

Why not then just trim it down to the bare basics,

Marksmanship, covers virtually all the combat skills.
Medic, all your healing skills
Tech, repair and science combined, including care of energy weapons and 50% of traps.
Diplomacy, includes speech, barter, gambling.
Thief, 50% of your sneak 50% of traps, plus your steal and lockpick.
Outdoorsmanship, survival in the wasteland, 50% of sneak and your piloting skills.

These are the skills you put your points into, when so many points have been spent in a skill you can choose from a new set of perks, which will allow to to do more things, ie wield that minigun properly or use your plasma rifle more efficiently. Have a lot more special traits, to learn, to replace the subset of skills we currently have.

Have the stats, strength, perception etc play an even bigger role.

DarkUnderlord wrote:Oh look, it's just like Fallout 1 and 2, but without energy weapons and gambling and with two medic skills.

If it ain't broke...

Agreed, as long as they did fix what's broke, no more useless perks that don't work properly thankyou.

The BOS didn't build or rebuild any bunkers. They just showed up at Lost Hills--already wearing Power Armour, incidentally--and moved in. The area encompassing Lost Hills and Mariposa wasn't hit at all in the War.

All the cars in FO have been destryoed by bombs, as well as well over a fucking century sitting there rusting. After a hundred goddamned years, even if someone somehow managed to get the factory machinery running (which is tougher than a car, really) to make the little gears and belts and brakelines and all the other tiny, precisely machined parts that go into a car, where are you going to find a chassis that hasn't virtually desintegrated from rust after all that time? Cars in FO don't really make sense. It'd take divine intervention to get one that could even come close to being able to be repaired.

DeLoreans are made of stainless steel, they wouldn't have been rusted to crap. Then again, having one of them would give the character too much of a charisma boost and would unbalance the game

good old DeLorean's lol
back when made in ireland ment something, shame he went bankrupt, and the cars were notoriously fault riddled, including jamming doors, trapping the driver. lol

Fez wrote:The Brotherhood armour is probably better than the combat armour the outsiders have because of their constant research. They'd want to stay ahead of anyone else who got their hands on some pre-war weapons.

Despite the despcriptions I've always thought of the combat armours like this,

Combat Armour: manufactured before the war, in use when the bombs dropped, has been handed down across several generations and probably been patched and repaired many times.

Combat Armour MKII: manufactured before the war but was in storage when the bombs dropped (like the set in the toxic caves) in better condition because it's been protected from the elements and not used as much.

Brotherhood Armour: Newly manufactured by the Brotherhood, in very good condition, and maybe benefitting from additional research.

It's preposterous to think that the Brotherhood with their high technology and education would not be able to replicate something the victorians (circa 1880's) could pull off. In over a century they've had at the bunker they could have made and maintaned at least a few vehicles, even if they had to build and design it from scratch. It's a dead cert that vehicles would have been made by them at some point, it'd be madness not to. And for those who whinge about cars not being fallout-like for whatever poor excuse, just think if the inspirations for this game, such as the Mad Max films AKA ROAD WARRIOR, not known as "Pavement Warrior" or "Stroll Warrior" or even "I like running a hundred miles to get to the nearest house because I don't believe in cars Warrior".

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Despite the despcriptions I've always thought of the combat armours like this,

Combat Armour: manufactured before the war, in use when the bombs dropped, has been handed down across several generations and probably been patched and repaired many times.

Combat Armour MKII: manufactured before the war but was in storage when the bombs dropped (like the set in the toxic caves) in better condition because it's been protected from the elements and not used as much.

Brotherhood Armour: Newly manufactured by the Brotherhood, in very good condition, and maybe benefitting from additional research.

Yeah, that's how I figured the various types came about too, it makes sense that way.

Oh, I see. There are cars in one example of post-apoc culture, so they must exist in all post-apoc things. Now that's preposterous. Mad Max is Mad Max. Fallout is Fallout. And in Fallout, there are very few cars, if any at all.

Maybe they were just hiding them, I wouldn't trust those thieving kids near my car (or my game character for that matter)! But seriously, I'm only using that one as an example because it is a similar setting and was a big influence on Fallout, I didn't say "they must exist in all post-apoc things", you must have dreamed it. The fact is that transport would be pretty high up on a "to-do" list for the Brotherhood over the many, many years they had in that hole.

Most cars ran on fuel... Remember? The war was about fuel? Giving that fuel must have been important no? I mean to kill the entire world and all, you'd think you'd need a pretty good reason (excluding FO2 Enclave nonsense).

Obviosuly people felt it coming and indeed people started using Fusion power instead (evidentlythe military before the civilians). Explaining why you find tons of cars in heaps and Working PAs.

So fusion powered cars are something rather rare altogether. Now modifying cars to run on other energy sources - I'm thinking mainly oils is indeed possible but requires a) knowledge about making oil, b) a somewhat decent car... It's possible you could find something in a better condition in some underground parking I guess, and c) a mechanic able to understand how to convert a fuel burning car into an oil burning car. I actually have no idea how complicated that is as I'm no mechanic. But it does make it quite a bit less likely for someone to run around in a car - specially considering you're trying to survive to eat and wasting crops on fuel wouldn't be seen as a smart thing to do last I checked...

There is really NO reason to bother with a car actually. I mean if an entity wants a vehicle they'd rather go with say a truck, to either move goods or troops. BoS however liked to keep in their bunker, so I really don't see why they'd waste time making cars specially in such a cramped bunker .

Again, there are probably bikes lying around, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to fix that instead as it's a simpler peice of machinery and is much more maneuverable - specially to avoid all the potholes left by hundreds of years of road disuse?

We've lived with cars only for a bit over 100 years (well, okay quite a bit really). I don't see why it's just SO IMPORTANT to be in a car post-war unless there are plenty available already (where it would be a tactical disavantage not to have them).

But it would be a major tactical advantage to have them and that would be enough of a reason to develop one. Hell even a horse or camel would give a group a good edge, just look at history - mobility matters. They could use them for patrols or assualts, or even trade. I agree entirely with you that a truck or APC would be the vehicle of choice and I did mean that when I was talking about vehicles, It'd seem silly for a militarized group to want flash sports cars for desert/wasteland travel and warfare!

The fact that there was a mechanic in Fallout 2 also implies that he must have had cars to fix too, I'd guess. There must also have been cars to fix for some time or else where would he learn all this from? Even if they did look after all the cars really well they'd still need replacing eventually over the hundred years or so. Nevermind what the larger settlements and networks mind imply for the increased desire and use for such transport.

The thing is that the BoS, mainly copied designs and made simple things, like the laser pistol Vree gives you.
They also make armors from designs they might have created after the war.

But building a car is still not that simple.
You'd have to forget about using old cars from before the war, because nothing can be salavged from them... It means the brotherhood needs to find a way to produce metal work... Which isn't really a mechanic's work.
Also, building a fusion engine for the car is not so easy.

The fact is, the brotherhood probably can't produce a car, and if they could I doubt the player could.

Red wrote:So fusion powered cars are something rather rare altogether. Now modifying cars to run on other energy sources - I'm thinking mainly oils is indeed possible but requires a) knowledge about making oil, b) a somewhat decent car... It's possible you could find something in a better condition in some underground parking I guess, and c) a mechanic able to understand how to convert a fuel burning car into an oil burning car. I actually have no idea how complicated that is as I'm no mechanic.

Not hard. http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky-preface.htm That's just the first thing that turned up in my search; I've seen environmentalists who will convert your car to run on ethanol for $25-$50 for the parts.

The diesel engine originally ran on peanut oil. Ford's first cars ran on ethanol and gasoline interchangeably. The only reason we used (and still use) petroleum is because it's cheaper and the existing fuel infrastructure (a.k.a. gas stations) is based on it.

Really, cars are fairly low-tech. If the BOS can make their own improved combat armor from plans and a little ingenuity, they can cobble together a jeep. Or those Jeeps were already in storage along with working the power armor, plasma rifles, etc. Likewise, the Gunrunners were manufacturing fairly high-end weaponry, which suggested they or someone like them could at least make a Model T. Think there's no gears, steel, and whatnot in a minigun? And don't pull the "Yeah, but that's from the heretical FO2 and FOT", those are just FO1 examples and pre-1950's technology.

Fuel is fairly simple, too. Forget fusion, think Buckner's Best.

Mad Max RW wrote:Getting a vehicle to run on alternative fuel isn't that difficult.

Indeed. My country uses a tank called the Leopard 2. It is capable on running on turf, I don't know if that is the english word, but turf is something they dug up in masses around the 1900 to warm stoves. 'Turf' is nothing short of a mineral rich type of mud.

I think this would be an interesting FO3 storyline, it would fix what I view as the vehicle and technology problems. I like the dirty ruthless wastes better than cities and civilizations.
The existing powers in FO2 grow powerful and develop technologies, etc.
They get in a fight over something. resources, maybe.
Vehicles are used and destroyed, since they are so valuable to combat they are the first target in a war. Weapons, ammunition, much of the advanced stuff would be destroyed. Unless it is hidden or hoarded, which would be difficult but possible inside of the reach of the warring nation-states, who demand all weapons and armament be brought forward for the war effort. Scientists and other skilled people would be prime targets for assassination, because they help the enemy. Many lives lost. Expertise lost.
Back to the basics.

Walks with the Snails wrote:Not hard. http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky-preface.htm That's just the first thing that turned up in my search; I've seen environmentalists who will convert your car to run on ethanol for $25-$50 for the parts.

The diesel engine originally ran on peanut oil. Ford's first cars ran on ethanol and gasoline interchangeably. The only reason we used (and still use) petroleum is because it's cheaper and the existing fuel infrastructure (a.k.a. gas stations) is based on it.

I'm sure a lot of people of the wastes had access to this information what with the interwab being all over the place - and I'm also sure that using such a modification won't harm the engine at all - specially more recent engines which would understandably constructed with the tought that they'd run on clean fuel.

With resources low I still don't quite grasp why they'd spend so much resources on making fuel. They don't need to transport massive PA's, they're already all cozy in their bunker.

Red wrote: With resources low I still don't quite grasp why they'd spend so much resources on making fuel. They don't need to transport massive PA's, they're already all cozy in their bunker.

Trade-routes between cities, or towns.
And we're not just talking about the BoS, it's somebody, out in the wastes making a car, truck, bike whatever the heck kind of vehicle possible.

Red, to be honest, I think enough people have come with their knowledge, and no matter what, some of it would have survived somehow.
To think that a car can't be reconstructed somehow is simply illogical.

And another thing, to think that there wouldn't at least be some kind of vehicle in the vaults, seems pretty weird now that I think about it..!

What if they wanted to scout out an area, or move to another to construct their new town(Not using a GECK, that's simply beyond any kind of reasoning)?

I doubt they wouldn't have thought of that somehow... Well to be honest, the whole vault-design was completely screwed to begin with, if we're talking logic, so I guess my point is a bad one.

I think this is a dead discussion, because not much in the Fo-universe makes sense anyway.

Fez wrote:It's preposterous to think that the Brotherhood with their high technology and education would not be able to replicate something the victorians (circa 1880's) could pull off.

The Victorian Era had something fairly important going for it that California doesn't have.. Infrastructure. Need four carriage wheels to make your horseless carriage? Buy them. Need the steam engine? Buy one. Need the coal? Go buy it. See the trend here? Want me to also point out how impractical those Victorian Era cars were?

Where's the BOS going to run out and buy working car parts now? Like I said, AutoZone is closed for business.

In over a century they've had at the bunker they could have made and maintaned at least a few vehicles, even if they had to build and design it from scratch.

Which they would have had to do, since they walked from Mariposa to Lost Hills.

It's a dead cert that vehicles would have been made by them at some point, it'd be madness not to.

You're making an assumption they can. If they can, why do they rely on caravans in Fallout? In Fallout 2, they mention they don't have a means of countering the Vertibirds, which vehicles actually would do since they have cmmunications, a small area to campus, and rapid trasportation, even if it may not be just as fast as a Vertibird.

Then again, considering the decline of the Brotherhood from the time of Fallout to Fallout 2, I doubt they actually bothered to make vehicles.

And for those who whinge about cars not being fallout-like for whatever poor excuse, just think if the inspirations for this game, such as the Mad Max films AKA ROAD WARRIOR, not known as "Pavement Warrior" or "Stroll Warrior" or even "I like running a hundred miles to get to the nearest house because I don't believe in cars Warrior".

Notice they also had a nice explanation in Fallout 1 as to why cars aren't around.

Human Shield wrote:If they have the technology to make high powered laser pistols they can use that energy to turn a wheel, okay.

Keep in mind that 1HorsePower = 745Watts.

Rotating a wheel isn't the hard part. Rotating the wheel for a long enough time with enough power to achieve a useful velocity over land while moving a useful amount of weight is the hard part. Other hard parts include lubrication of moving parts without oil, stopping the vehicle, turning the vehicle, keeping the vehicle powered, and so on.

BoS could easily make a transport device, but they don't get out much and the terrain isn't level street top, there are mountains, rocks, rumble etc...

They couldn't at the time of Fallout 2.

SuperH wrote:DeLoreans are made of stainless steel, they wouldn't have been rusted to crap. Then again, having one of them would give the character too much of a charisma boost and would unbalance the game

Transistors never existed in Fallout's universe, no DeLoreans.

Fez wrote:Maybe they were just hiding them,

Which is why they walked the Vault Dweller to Mariposa? If Supermutants aren't enough of a threat to whip out the general purpose vehicles, I don't know what would be.

Fez wrote:But it would be a major tactical advantage to have them and that would be enough of a reason to develop one.

Which would, again, be odd that they didn't use those "hidden" vehicles you claim they must have against the Supermutants or the Enclave.

They could use them for patrols or assualts, or even trade.

I think you've been playing too much of the Fallout Tactics. The Brotherhood rarely assault, they isolate themselves in their bunker, and they don't think they have anything to fear from anyone else. Why would they assault or patrol?

As for trade, the caravans come to them.

The fact that there was a mechanic in Fallout 2 also implies that he must have had cars to fix too, I'd guess.

The guy that installs the grav plates? Or the chop shop guy?

There must also have been cars to fix for some time or else where would he learn all this from?

Books, maybe? Those still exist.

Walks with the Snails wrote:Not hard. http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky-preface.htm That's just the first thing that turned up in my search; I've seen environmentalists who will convert your car to run on ethanol for $25-$50 for the parts.

Come on, Walks, you have to know ethanol is a blend of alcohol and gasoline.

The diesel engine originally ran on peanut oil. Ford's first cars ran on ethanol and gasoline interchangeably. The only reason we used (and still use) petroleum is because it's cheaper and the existing fuel infrastructure (a.k.a. gas stations) is based on it.

That's actually not true. It was around twenty years after Dr. Diesel made his first CI engine that they tried to get one working with peanut oil. The peanut oil idea was put forth by the French government as a way to loosen the grip of petroleum and coal on African colonies. It worked so well, we still use it today.

Oh, wait.. We don't.

Even if we did, where are you going to get peanut oil from in the wasteland? If people were growing peanut crops, my guess is they'd be doing it because they needed food, not fuel for a car. So, if the BOS developed the peanut powered jeep, where would they get a tank of peanut oil from?

Forty-six & Two wrote: Every square inch of the U.S wasnt nuked, and im pretty sure the level of tech a normal car had reached around the great war was high enough for it to survive a few hundred years, if not highly exposed. Im not saying it would be in perfect working order, but as mentioned 10 damaged cars could make one working car if a mechanic was around.

Just for kicks, let your car sit around for a month and tell me how well it works after just sitting there a month. Chances are, the battery will be dead. If you left the parking brake on, you'll probably have a few locked calipers on your hands as well. We're not talking about a month here, either. We're talking 1200 months.

The problem with piecing a car together is that most of the things that fail by sitting around all tend to fail at around the same time. Lubricants will congeal at about the same order as the car next to it. Belts and hoses will dry rot, depending on condition at the time they started to sit, at roughly the same time. Chain links rust together as well at a similiar rate based on exposure, climate, and so on.

You might find 10 cars, but chances are, the same thing will be wrong with all of them.

Also, high tech doesn't typically mean longer life, it just means more to go wrong. Ever tried working on a modern car verus a 1970 chevy nova?

Smiley wrote:To think that a car can't be reconstructed somehow is simply illogical.

And yet, the ancient Greeks knew the Earth was a spheroid. Something so basic, and it took us centuries to figure that one out again.

Smiley wrote:I think this is a dead discussion, because not much in the Fo-universe makes sense anyway.

Yeah, maybe so.

Saint Proverbius wrote:

In over a century they've had at the bunker they could have made and maintaned at least a few vehicles, even if they had to build and design it from scratch.

Which they would have had to do, since they walked from Mariposa to Lost Hills.

It's a dead cert that vehicles would have been made by them at some point, it'd be madness not to.

You're making an assumption they can. If they can, why do they rely on caravans in Fallout? In Fallout 2, they mention they don't have a means of countering the Vertibirds, which vehicles actually would do since they have cmmunications, a small area to campus, and rapid trasportation, even if it may not be just as fast as a Vertibird.

Then again, considering the decline of the Brotherhood from the time of Fallout to Fallout 2, I doubt they actually bothered to make vehicles.

That's not a bad assumption. Because the BOS are idiots, they never bothered with cars. Even in FO2, where you had a car, they apparently never bothered. Really I think the BOS is so full of logical holes by now I really don't want to see any more of them in any FO game. So let's just drop them altogether. It's still not a bad assertion someone out there could do it. The Gunrunners were making friggin' laser rifles.

The fact that there was a mechanic in Fallout 2 also implies that he must have had cars to fix too, I'd guess.

The guy that installs the grav plates? Or the chop shop guy?

There must also have been cars to fix for some time or else where would he learn all this from?

Books, maybe? Those still exist.

Why bother learning how in the first place if there's no point? And why have the tools and employees to keep the shop running? Okay, that was in FO2, but he has a point.

Walks with the Snails wrote:Not hard. http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky-preface.htm That's just the first thing that turned up in my search; I've seen environmentalists who will convert your car to run on ethanol for $25-$50 for the parts.

Come on, Walks, you have to know ethanol is a blend of alcohol and gasoline.

Wish I had glasses so I could push them up now. Ethanol is short for ethyl alcohol, a.k.a. booze. Ethanol is currently used as an additive in our gasoline, but as far as I know, they still call it gasoline.

The diesel engine originally ran on peanut oil. Ford's first cars ran on ethanol and gasoline interchangeably. The only reason we used (and still use) petroleum is because it's cheaper and the existing fuel infrastructure (a.k.a. gas stations) is based on it.

That's actually not true. It was around twenty years after Dr. Diesel made his first CI engine that they tried to get one working with peanut oil. The peanut oil idea was put forth by the French government as a way to loosen the grip of petroleum and coal on African colonies. It worked so well, we still use it today.

Okay, I probably heard that from environmentalists (who are naturally suspect ), but I think the first public demonstration at the World's Fair used peanut oil. I doubt they were being mass-produced and running around on the streets before making their debut at the World's Fair.

Oh, wait.. We don't.

As I said, it's simple economics. Back when automobiles caught on, it cost more to grow crops and convert them to ethanol or biodiesel than it cost to drill petroleum out of the ground. Being good-ol' bottom-line watching Americans, the decision was made to adopt petroleum as the standard fuel, and the rest is history.

Even if we did, where are you going to get peanut oil from in the wasteland? If people were growing peanut crops, my guess is they'd be doing it because they needed food, not fuel for a car. So, if the BOS developed the peanut powered jeep, where would they get a tank of peanut oil from?

They don't even need peanut oil, it's just an example. Petroleum (or peanut oil) isn't magic; if it burns, you can run an engine on it. I've read of people running their cars on waste grease from fast food restaurants, with only minor modifications.

Saint_Proverbius wrote: And yet, the ancient Greeks knew the Earth was a spheroid. Something so basic, and it took us centuries to figure that one out again.

We're talking about a construct, of which the wasteland is littered with in every town and big city.

A reconstruction of a car, should be simple.

As you mentioned yourself, there should be books around somewhere.
Heck, there sohuld probably even be an untouched garage somewhere out there! It's not like every nook and cranny has been nuked and ripped for inventory!

So I stick to my claim: To think that a car can't be reconstructed somehow is simply illogical.

I never said anything about fuel though, but since electricity doesn't seem to be the biggest problem, they could probably make a few light-weight vehicles run on that.

Besides, they'd probably find a way somehow. I don't claim it to be economical according to our standards, or anything close to that, but I'm sure that is there was a way, the BoS would probably find it.

And this discussion is all "if".
There never was a nuke-carpet across the world, there never were any vaults, the BoS doesn't exist, this is just a game, an assumption of how the world *could* have turned out to be.
So just about anything we say could have been true or real or whatever.

This discussion, or any answer to it, died the minute we said "if".

One more thing, Saint, do you honestly think it impossible?
You seem more set on proving us wrong, than giving it a thought, that maybe, just *maybe*, there might be someone out there, in the Fallout universe, who actually made a truck work, and by some strange accident, found a gas-tower or gas-station with enough gas to last a couple of years?

Be honest, do you really think it'd be 100% impossible to reconstruct a car, and somehow make it run?