J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

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Franz Schubert
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Before I say my point, I want to address the issue of ammo. I think that in order for the game to be true to the PA setting, ammo should be scarce, unlike FO1 and 2. For instance, in the first 2 fallouts, I found myself dumping ammo after every encounter, simply because it weighed too much and I didn't need it all.

Could you imagine how much more fun the game would be if ammo conservation factored into your decisions? It would provide extra incentives to choose the non-violent paths, or sometimes even the violent paths if you think you can get extra ammo from the bodies. Either way, it would definitely give the game more of a PA feel, IMO.
Do not make plasma > laser > conventional. Rather, make each weapon type fill a niche.
I don't like this idea. First of all, I think that Plasma/laser weapons should be very hard to get. I think most of the fighting in the beginning-middle parts of the game should be with conventional weapons. Having said that, I think realistically, Plasma weapons and laser weapons should be WAY more powerful than conventional weapons. It makes sense, why else would the pre-apocalypse militaries develop them if they weren't very powerful.

Of course, there is the issue of game balancing. In this case, the answer is simple. Make the laser/plasma ammo EXTREMELY expensive/scarce. This is going along with my earlier statements about ammo, but if you sell your arm and your leg for the ammo for your plasma cannon, you are going to be very careful about when you use it. This is a self-regulating balance. If you go around killing raiders in random encounters with a gatling laser, you shouldn't last very long in the wastes.
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Post by axelgreese »

SuperH wrote:And before any of you go and say "OH GUNZ AKIMBO INS'T FALLOT! IT"S HERESY!!!!11" : http://www.justinsweet.com/images/PAINTINGS/FALLOU1.JPG
there are also plan[e]s(LOL PLANES NOT PLANS! :D) in that picture, with machine guns on there noses.

I dont' remember seeing any of those in fallout.
Last edited by axelgreese on Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hammer »

An AK with a milled reciever is about 8 - 10 pounds unloaded, an M16A2 is about 7 - 8 pounds unloaded.
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Post by SuperH »

axelgreese wrote:there are also plans in that picture, with machine guns on there noses.

I dont' remember seeing any of those in fallout.
Yeah you did, that picture is in fallout ;)

And while there were no planes per se, there were vertibirds. Those could have machine guns attached to the front, i'd imagine, especially since a single minigun can be held by a human being, they should be able to have like 4 miniguns along the front of them.
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Post by EvoG »

Franz_Schubert wrote:Before I say my point, I want to address the issue of ammo. I think that in order for the game to be true to the PA setting, ammo should be scarce, unlike FO1 and 2. For instance, in the first 2 fallouts, I found myself dumping ammo after every encounter, simply because it weighed too much and I didn't need it all.

Could you imagine how much more fun the game would be if ammo conservation factored into your decisions? It would provide extra incentives to choose the non-violent paths, or sometimes even the violent paths if you think you can get extra ammo from the bodies. Either way, it would definitely give the game more of a PA feel, IMO.
Do not make plasma > laser > conventional. Rather, make each weapon type fill a niche.
I don't like this idea. First of all, I think that Plasma/laser weapons should be very hard to get. I think most of the fighting in the beginning-middle parts of the game should be with conventional weapons. Having said that, I think realistically, Plasma weapons and laser weapons should be WAY more powerful than conventional weapons. It makes sense, why else would the pre-apocalypse militaries develop them if they weren't very powerful.

Of course, there is the issue of game balancing. In this case, the answer is simple. Make the laser/plasma ammo EXTREMELY expensive/scarce. This is going along with my earlier statements about ammo, but if you sell your arm and your leg for the ammo for your plasma cannon, you are going to be very careful about when you use it. This is a self-regulating balance. If you go around killing raiders in random encounters with a gatling laser, you shouldn't last very long in the wastes.
You got yourself some great thoughts there Franz that I couldn't agree more with. :D

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Post by Smiley »

axelgreese wrote:
SuperH wrote:And before any of you go and say "OH GUNZ AKIMBO INS'T FALLOT! IT"S HERESY!!!!11" : http://www.justinsweet.com/images/PAINTINGS/FALLOU1.JPG
there are also plans in that picture, with machine guns on there noses.

I dont' remember seeing any of those in fallout.
Isn't that a A10?... anyway, your point is kind of weak axel, don't ya think?
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Post by axelgreese »

Yeah you did, that picture is in fallout
YUO GOT ME THAR PAL! :DDDDD
And while there were no planes per se, there were vertibirds. Those could have machine guns attached to the front, i'd imagine, especially since a single minigun can be held by a human being, they should be able to have like 4 miniguns along the front of them.
No. Those planes dipicted in your loading screen, were not in Fallout 1, where the loading scene first appear. Point null and void.
Isn't that a A10?... anyway, your point is kind of weak axel, don't ya think?
You know, that's exactly why I said it, because I knew it was weak.

Just go back and read Saint's post in the NMA thread I posted. It doesn't matter if pistols akimbo is or is not plausible within the setting.
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Post by SuperH »

No, that loading screen was from fallout 2. Definately 100% sure on that one man, I remember thinking to myself how they gave the tribal an indian-y longish haircut. The similar picture from F01 had the vault dweller male and female standing together in the necropolis with about a bajillion ghouls climbing at them. The female was holding the assualt rifle, I believe.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Wow, this thread got off topic fast...

I thought we were discussing the weapons skills and the weapons themselves.
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Post by axelgreese »

SuperH wrote:No, that loading screen was from fallout 2. Definately 100% sure on that one man.
I'm sure you're incorrect but I don't really care.

The point is, guns akimbo = bad.

For both realism and game balance.
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Post by requiem_for_a_starfury »

Smiley wrote:Because like Spazmo stated, having a rifle take up two slots is kind of overkill...
I don't think so, if a weapon requires two hands to use properly then it should take up both slots, nothing really to do with weight, you can't expect to go around firing rifles single handedly and still expect to regularly hit anything. Plus it was all too easy to switch between two two-handed weapons without any ap penalty, and when you were crippled in an arm and couldn't use a rifle you could just drop it into the other slot and then carry on using it as if you hadn't been injured at all. Having a two handed weapon require both slots makes perfect sense to me, though I think if you have a pistol equipped and keep the other hand slot empty the game should treat it as you having both hands on the weapon and give a slight bonus to your accuracy, (just as the H2H evade perk gives a bonus to you AC when both hand slots are empty) and if it was workable having a two handed weapon or two weapons equipped should still allow you a kick attack as an alternate.
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Post by Spazmo »

There was a Pancor Jackhammer in FO2 as well. Ditto New Reno, San Francisco, Easter Eggs and a bunch of other non-Fallouty stuff. One loading screen that doesn't even really have much to do with the game doesn't mean a damn thing.
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Post by Smiley »

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:I don't think so, if a weapon requires two hands to use properly then it should take up both slots, nothing really to do with weight, you can't expect to go around firing rifles single handedly and still expect to regularly hit anything. Plus it was all too easy to switch between two two-handed weapons without any ap penalty
Hence my previous suggestion, scroll a bit back, you'll see it.
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Post by requiem_for_a_starfury »

Smiley wrote:Hence my previous suggestion, scroll a bit back, you'll see it.
I saw it and I ignored it, there's already the quick pockets perk if you want to choose different weapons use that. Hand slots should be treated as such and not as holsters, though if you do have more than one, one handed weapon equipped there should be either an ap cost to switch over or a slight penalty to aim (unless you've got the one hander trait).

Otherwise if you want quick access to weapons then you might as well introduce the quick weapon slots from BG etc. Then you're talking about revamping the whole inventory system.
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Post by ApTyp »

So what if a rifle doesn't weigh a ton, it's still pain in the ass to get out a pistol or another rifle while you're holding a longarm in your hand.
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Post by Section8 »

* Two firearm categories: small guns (1-handed) and big guns (2-handed). This means a laser pistol would be a small gun and a plasma rifle would be a big gun.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with this, and I'm sure everyone has their own views on reclassification of weapons and whether it's necessary. Personally, I'd like to see them divided according to the way the weapon is used. ie Something like Single Shot, Full Automatic, Scoped, Heavy. Although while this rationalises the weapon use in an arguably better manner, the Gun skills in the original Fallout incorporate maintainence. Altering weapon maintainence to fit under Repair/Science would add some extra micromanagement to the game, but on the whole wouldn't detract too much from the experience, and adds to the feeling of the PA world, where everything is in disrepair and pristine items are in high demand. It also allows a certain degree of scaling for weapon power early in the game, which I'll cover a little mor ein my next point.
* Weapon categories should do different things, not be inherently "better" than each other. Thus, the following proposals:
This is my biggest problem with weapon skills as the are implemented in Fallout, and to a greater extent, Fallout 2. A character who picks Big Guns or Energy Weapons is hobbled in the beginning and powerful later in the game. While this makes picking either a fairly interesting choice, it affects the difficulty progression in an adverse way, and logically a character who picks Big Guns at the start is probably interested in doing some serious killing and probably doesn't want to be diplomatic, stealthy or reliant on NPCs to get them through combat.
* Big guns take up both item slots. If you want to switch to another weapon while using a big gun, you're spending 4 AP to go into inventory. Suck it up.

* Small guns, generally speaking, use lower caliber (and lower damage) rounds, but can be placed in one-hand. Though this doesn't mean OMG DUAL WIELD EVERY DAY, it means that you can switch back and forth between two types of guns, or a gun and grenades, etc. without needing to go into inventory.
* Allow people to use two identical small guns simultaneously at large penalties. Give access to a high small guns requirement perk that lowers these penalties.
I don't really like the idea of Akimbo weapons, because it's become cliche in everything from Cyberpunk to High fantasy, not to mention it's largely impractical.
* Let big guns be appropriately accurate at long ranges, but disallow the ability to make called shots with big guns when within one hex of an enemy.
I think To-Hit chances could use some more attention from a tactical point of view. Adding functionality to script To-Hit chances based on range would be good. Using a scoped weapon in close quarters should also be similarly discouraged. It means that weapons with greater ranges should have a similar effective range to a short range weapon, making it more of a choice than an obvious upgrade.
* Do not make plasma > laser > conventional. Rather, make each weapon type fill a niche. Conventional weapons are good for shooting things at normal gun battle ranges, doing ballistic damage to unarmored, fleshy targets. Plasma weapons are shorter range weapons that do a high amount of heat damage and can be charged for more damaging single attacks (even without making a called shot), thereby blowing out thresholds on demand. Laser weapons are long range weapons with exceptional accuracy. They might even do less damage than a conventional weapon, but they are perfect for a sniper making targeted attacks.
Another good point. Given the complexity of Fallout's armour system, it means that it is quite easy to play with the types of enemy certain weapons are effective against, but it shouldn't be so pronounced as to go down the dark path of Final Fantasy X, where each enemy was an obvious target for a given player character, making most combat encounters identical, with all choices and outcomes clear as day.
* Make the chance of critical failure based off of the reliability/complexity of the weapon. Why do people still use revolvers today even though they can get a higher ROF from autoloaders?
Another good one, which could be expanded further depending on how weapon maintainence is concerned.
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Post by Megatron »

So long as we don't have to maintain our weapons. A 200 year old gun that suddenly breaks after you've used it a few times? And in Morrowind I didn't find it fun to waste time on skills and extra items just to fix +3 DEMON SWORD.

Fallout isn't realistic, but just because it isn't you want akimbo guns in? Well I guess some people will buy fobos after all :yay for chuck:
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Post by Dan »

Smiley wrote:Isn't that a A10?
No, it isn't. Notice the wings, what do you see there? That's right, engines.


Now, about the weapon skills.
I said it in NMA, but basiclly I don't understand why the system should be changed.
The Fallout system is, for the most part, well balanced. You can change it, but why?

I would like pistols and rifles to be in the same category. When you start the game you switch from pistols to rifles all the time. You might start with a week pistol, then use a shotgun, then find an SMG... Dividing the small arms skill to two other skills, would force you to invest in two combat skills in the begining. It just doesn't seem right.
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Post by Smiley »

No, it isn't. Notice the wings, what do you see there? That's right, engines.
it's a... uhhh... MODIFIED A10!!!! No...? aw damn...

Didn't pay much attention ^^...

about the skills...

Isn't there a better way of dividing it?
How about, automatic, and non-automatic...
Skills for firering something in bursts and full-auto, and then skills for single-shot.

Or... I know! How about we let it stay as it's always been? gee I bet no one had figured that one out :roll:
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Post by PiP »

As some people already said, two-handed guns taking two slots (i.e. hands) is a pretty reasonable idea. Rifle/shotgun fired from one hand? Naah pleeez... sounds like some crappy-unrealistic-Rambo-FOBOS style.

Still, the image of my PC taking a gun from his BACK is ever vivid in my memory. How 'bout one more slot - the BACK slot? You could wield two single-hand guns, or a gun and, say, a grenade, PLUS a rifle on your back. Taking the rfile/shotgun would have an AP penalty somewhere between swapping small guns and going to the inventory, plus you'd have to holster BOTH your small guns.
Alternatively, you could carry one two-handed gun in your hands and the other at your back; swapping them is (btw what verb should I use here?) about 2 AP penalty.
What's your opininon, guys, on the above ideas?

Having a KICK as an alternative also doesn't sound bad. I'm just not sure whether making fights so varied wouldn't take us too close to action games. Well, I just don't know, what'che think?

PS: carrying two HEAVY guns would have to take a really strong character. (ST at least 8, or more)
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