Why I hate Dungeons and Dragons

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:44 am

Garf wrote:Don't like PnP games, nor fantasy games.. so I guess I'm inclined to agree with this topic.

2 hardkor 4 u? Personally I like PnP games a lot; a well done PnP game can deliver more in the ways of plot, detail, and even action than a CRPG can. And I don't know why all PnPers are called geeks; PnP games are often much more social than computer games (and I don't mean "I slap it with my greatsword" social, I mean actual in-depth stuff and lively chat in between). In yo face drama and all that.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:51 am

Spazmo wrote:Yeah, Second Edition was utter ass. Just lots of ridiculous and conflicting rules. But if you want a really ruletastic system, go for RoleMaster. Tables, tables, tables!

RoleMaster and it's bastard off-spring MERP were indeed pretty damned complicated. One of the problems with the game was that it tried to differentiate too much between weapons. While systems like this may be more realistic, in the name of playability I think it's better to simply combine weapons in the broadest families possible. For instance, a Scimitar should include the Tulwar, Sabre and Cutlass, that way you don't have umpteen million charts cluttering up your playing area since -- unless your name is Will Hunting -- there's no way you're going to memorize all of that shit.

Rune Quest was -- believe it or not -- worse. The character generation system itself was a nightmare w/lots of attributes being inter-related, such as your character's height affecting his/her Strength. In addition it was written in the typical Avalon Hill "legalese", which made it too confusing for the average mortal to comfortably comprehend.

Spazmo wrote:As for setting concerns, maybe I'm just not a ruff n tuff grizzled veteran type like some around here, but as long as the setting is interesting, well-designed and consistent, I'll play in it.

That's one of my gripes w/high fantasy in general. It's just been skull-fucked to death, resurrected, then skull-fucked to death again. Novel and interesting settings like Jorune that don't rely on the standard elves, dwarves, etc., never go anywhere since people are largely unwilling to invest the time and effort in something unfamiliar.

Speaking of bizarre combinations...Spazmo, you should get a hold of the old module S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. It was an official module that had a space ship from the science fantasy game Metamorphosis Alpha crash-landing in Greyhawk, and the PCs could shuffle around inside of it and blow their heads off trying to figure out how to use laser pistols.

atoga wrote:2 hardkor 4 u? Personally I like PnP games a lot; a well done PnP game can deliver more in the ways of plot, detail, and even action than a CRPG can. And I don't know why all PnPers are called geeks; PnP games are often much more social than computer games (and I don't mean "I slap it with my greatsword" social, I mean actual in-depth stuff and lively chat in between). In yo face drama and all that.

Not only that, but a living, breathing referee can tailor his game to his/her particular players better than a pack of CRPG designers can sitting in some design studio. I've never seen a CRPG that handled reacting to a player's actions all that well, either. For instance, in FO2 you can attack the Raiders, leave for New Reno, then come back and it's like you never left. Whereas in a PnP game the referee could have had the Raiders double the guards, re-trap areas, call in long ranged patrols as reinforcements, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

OTB

Garf · Post by **Garf** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:12 am

Spazmo wrote:Care to explain why? We don't care for broad statements with no backing around here.

Bad impressions mabye? I went to a group of friends houses once back in highschool who were playing something called Vampire the Master Raid or somethen and it was PnP, and well.. they were jumping around with vampire clothes on and screaming stuff everytime they rolled the dice. After that I never looked at PnP games as being for me. I also noticed everyone playing was a thesbian and part of the drama club.. not that that's a bad thing, but it's just not for me. I've never been into plays or anything like that.

I understand that this one experience is a huge generalization but I just never was able to shake it out of my head, so when thinking PnP this is all I see, heh.

As for fantasy, well I've played enough fantasy games (BG, IWD, etc..) to where I became burnt out on them about 2 years ago. So I dislike them now.

But anyway, if you like it that's fine by me. I don't associate them with "geeks" or whatever.. one of the drama-club-guys at that session I spoke of was also a big jock.

These were just my experiences with it. If I had different ones I possibly could have liked it.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:22 am

OTB wrote:That's one of my gripes w/high fantasy in general. It's just been skull-fucked to death, resurrected, then skull-fucked to death again. Novel and interesting settings like Jorune that don't rely on the standard elves, dwarves, etc., never go anywhere since people are largely unwilling to invest the time and effort in something unfamiliar.

That's why I like Shadowrun; it has a lot of fantasy elements but they're in a wacky new place and there's plenty of guns, cars and cyberware to go along with them. It's a pretty refreshing, fast, and fun game. It is, as Chucky would say, "gritty and darkly humorous."

OTB wrote:Speaking of bizarre combinations...Spazmo, you should get a hold of the old module S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. It was an official module that had a space ship from the science fantasy game Metamorphosis Alpha crash-landing in Greyhawk, and the PCs could shuffle around inside of it and blow their heads off trying to figure out how to use laser pistols.

Heh, I think I've played that exact module, though quite a long time ago. It was weird stuff.

Garf: have you played Planescape Torment? Also it seems like you stumbled upon a Vampire the Masquerade live action session. That is weird stuff. Some of the books have satanic stuff in them, I guess that's partly where religious types get their "DND is the devil's word" rap from.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:45 am

Well LARPs are already scary--Vampire ones moreso.

I've been wanting to pick up the Shadowrun stuff, but money is lacking. Nonetheless, can you reccomend good picks aside from the main rulebook?

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:48 am

Spaz > Cannon Companion (book of guns), Man & Machine (book of cyberware), Shadowrun Companion (book of other stuff). There's a whole bunch of other specialty books after that, for magic, vehicles, more guns, more cyberware, matrix rules and architecture, etc. but I would suggest picking them up only if you're quite interested in that type of thing.

Garf · Post by **Garf** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:13 am

Garf: have you played Planescape Torment? Also it seems like you stumbled upon a Vampire the Masquerade live action session. That is weird stuff. Some of the books have satanic stuff in them, I guess that's partly where religious types get their "DND is the devil's word" rap from.

Nope, never did play Planescape Torment. I kept hearing mixed feelings on it. Some really thought it was awesome, others thought there was too much of a story and had no action (though I think a story is always good).

Just never got around to buying it.

Ah and good to hear that it is considered "weird" by normal PnPer Players, heh. It seemed rather bizzare and f'ed up to me.

Calal · Post by **Calal** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:46 am

Seems like you ran into some extreme roleplayers there. Luckily they' re just a minority, the ones that really hold satanic rituals and so, I mean.

And the screaming: guess that' s part of the game:
"How come that trap sprung when I rolled a natural 20? You hate me don' t you?"
"Oh please, like tossing a dwarf to the trap would disarm it? Now sit your ass down and roll your Fort save."
So is the occasional fight between duped player (or should I say annoying and dumb player) and the slightly agravated DM.

Too bad it ruined your view of the pnp hobby. It is really fun if you play it with the right people and you have an imaginative DM.

As for the hack 'n slash horror of BG and IWD, well, I don' t even consider that as a reference to roleplaying. I mean, don' t they realise it is the same sort of story all over and over again?

InvisibleMonkey · Post by **InvisibleMonkey** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:54 am

I've seen people play DnD before, it doesn't look very entertaining to me at all. It just seems like they are acting out a book or something.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:02 am

Let me guess: You don't like books, either?

InvisibleMonkey · Post by **InvisibleMonkey** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:05 am

No, I am fine with books. I read all the time. But why act it out on a large piece of grid paper, I just don't get it

Ernesto · Post by **Ernesto** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:17 am

I only got the Player's Handbook, 3rd Edition. Cost me 40 freaking bucks. I thought there was an active community where I lived, but I was wrong! The closest place was a hour away and get this, they all had epic level characters. The DM wasn't going to add some little n00b in. Bastard.

After that, I became interested in PnP roleplaying. I now sort of collect rulebooks. My collection is far from impressive. Shadowrun 2nd Edition, AD&D 2nd Edition Monster Manual, my AD&D Player's Handbook and this box set of this little known Gary Gygax PNPRPG: Cyborg Commando.

Seriously dudes who hasn't played Planescape: Torment: you must buy this game. It's almost as good as Fallout and damn, it's the best fantasy game to come out in the 90's.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:28 am

Mr. Green wrote:Seriously dudes who hasn't played Planescape: Torment: you must buy this game. It's almost as good as Fallout and damn, it's the best fantasy game to come out in the 90's.

Indeed; PST roxors. Damn I love that setting, it's so crazy.

The ; key on my keyboard is stuck

InvisibleMonkey wrote: I read all the time. But why act it out on a large piece of grid paper, I just don't get it

It's not 'acting it out on a large piece of grid paper'. You do all kinds of stuff. You know, roleplay. Why play CRPGs? After all, you're just acting it out on a computer screen. Unless eye candy is your thing, a PNP RPG can provide just as well as a CRPG.

Ernesto · Post by **Ernesto** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:31 am

I recommend MUDs for you, Monkey that is Invisible. It's text based, so graphical speldor is kept to a minimum but the describition! It's great for roleplayers.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:35 am

Cyborg Commando? This Cyborg Commando?

Dude, you got pwned.

Ernesto · Post by **Ernesto** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:39 am

That's the one! :badgrin:

No wonder I got it for 5 bucks. Ah hell, it's cool having The Worst Roleplaying Game Ever.

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:07 pm

I tried getting into it with my friend and we'd went to this comic book shop at like midnight (after noticing that it's open next door to a resturant) to check out what kinds of books they had. We were interested in this supposed Shadowrun PNP, it sounded pretty neat since the SNES game was a damn cool game, but we were also trying to get into AD&D.

So we walk in and there's like a dozen of the most pale nerds I'd ever seen in my life in fucking CLOAKS sitting around this table with little tin action figures and an entire meticulously crafted landscape. They all look at us like we're both convicted child molesters for about 2 minutes in silence and then their apparent "leader" exclaims "LEAVE. NOW."

Very unnerving experience. I can't say I wanted to get into it after that.

InvisibleMonkey · Post by **InvisibleMonkey** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:23 pm

Hahahaha. That may very wel be the funniest thing I have ever heard. I smell cult.

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:26 pm

What geeks, I would have told them to suck me, be all like,"What are you going to do? Hit me with your +1 Mace? Have a midget kick my ass? You're not cool enough to have a midget freind who would kick my ass for you!"

Okay maybe I wouldn't have said that, not until I'm 21 at least when I can get a CCP just in case he does happen to have a midget in his pocket.

I walked into a comic book shop once or twice after playing laser tag a couple years ago, we were waiting to get picked up and we decided to wander around and saw the shop, we went in and manhandled the merchandise and pestered the owner asking him questions and such, found out he's married and his wife helps run the store which is rather odd, he wasn't really geeky at all either, turns out he was in the Army too. My freind felt bad for bothering him and not buying anything so he bought a Filler Bunny, something the guy couldn't sell and his wife wouldn't let him give his kid because he wasn't sure what it was made of, probably melted down lead paint chips with rubber added.

InvisibleMonkey · Post by **InvisibleMonkey** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:46 pm

DnD seems like an extremely boring game, there is a small comic book shop near where my grandparents live, I went in to look around cause I have never been in a comic book shop before. Well next to the place where they sell stuff there is a room where you can play your card games or DnD or whatever and the people where playing the game and it was just like "You walk down a long corridor and at the end of the hall there are 2 ways you can go left or right, which way do you go?" So Iwatched them play for a little bit and it just seemed very boring.