Game Over mixed up about Fallout Enforcer

[DarkUnderlord]

Further, you have to understand, when we talk shit about a game or the people who made it, these are guys we're gonna see tomorrow or the next day at some press event or another. They aren't a nameless pack of bastards like they often are to you guys; they're Bob and Phil from the gaming company. It's a lot harder to really go off on a game, even if it does deserve it, when it represents three years out of the life of a guy who you know, and when you know he's gonna read it.

So you're biased towards games where they're made by people you know and unwilling to give critiscism where critiscism is due because they're you're friends (well, because you may and/or may not meet them at the water cooler at the next E3)? That's cool.

Say hi to Bob and Phil when you see them next (as you walk passed them at the unemployment line) and be sure to tell 'em their game sucks for me.

[Rosh]

Brutal, but oh so accurate.

[Bleusilences]

They is no friend in business, that's why i don't want to go in there. But you my friend, you are in the business so you should not worry about peer pressure if you want to cut trough, by being a sheep you will accomplish little in this kind of business

[Thomas Wilde]

I honestly didn't mean to post again, and I apologize for contradicting my last post, but I saw there were some questions here.

What's that? You get paid off with free games?

Depends on who I'm writing for at the moment. I also write for Station Gamer, Tip Station, and OXM in the UK, I believe some of my work has appeared in A to Z Cheats in Australia, and I'm a strat guide author for DoubleJump Publishing. When I say "professional gamer," I mean it's how the rent gets paid.

So you're biased towards games where they're made by people you know and unwilling to give critiscism where critiscism is due because they're you're friends (well, because you may and/or may not meet them at the water cooler at the next E3)? That's cool.

Aren't you the guy who wrote the infamous "Why I Hate BoS" FAQ? Have you actually played the game yet?

If you'd actually read the post you're quoting, you'd've noticed that I was talking in generalities, and was not talking about the complete avoidance of criticism, but instead, about "softpedaling." In the private fan community, you are free and clear to call game designers coal-burning gutter whores if you want, because they all know better than to come by your boards. When you're in the press, you'd better be able to back up the shit you talk.

That's what I meant; that's what I thought was obvious. I did not hold myself back in the review for fear of the mighty fist of Bob and/or Phil, as I would expect would've been glaringly obvious by the last five hundred words of the piece.

Now, I can see Proverbius's point, in that the language used in the guide would seem to preclude the rating I gave the game. I'm not sure how he knows that a dungeon crawler is "easy as hell" to make--if they were, I would presume that the Fallout fan community would already be hard at work on a version of Brotherhood of Steel that would make Interplay's look like Angband--but I can appreciate what he's saying. Doesn't mean I'm going to rewrite the review, because it's already a fairly concise summary of my opinion--entertaining co-op monster bash with some incomprehensible omissions--but his point's well-made.

]They is no friend in business, that's why i don't want to go in there. But you my friend, you are in the business so you should not worry about peer pressure if you want to cut trough, by being a sheep you will accomplish little in this kind of business

As noted above, I was speaking in generalities, not specifics, because game criticism as a whole was being discussed. I wasn't talking about my work; I invite you to read some of my other reviews, of games you've actually played, at game-over.net or worthplaying.com, and decide whether I am a "sheep" based upon that.

I'd still recommend to the lot of you that you play Brotherhood of Steel. If you don't like games in the Dark Alliance vein, then you won't like it, and that's cool.

If you're only avoiding the game because of fannish devotion to a seven-year-old PC RPG that many of you seem to feel that you own in some way, then you're not only working yourselves into an unnecessary frenzy over an irrelevant piece of luxury software, but you're allowing a preexisting and irrational prejudice to keep you from enjoying a decent and entertaining video game.

[Rosh]

I honestly didn't mean to post again, and I apologize for contradicting my last post, but I saw there were some questions here.

Don't worry. In posting the one bit of idiocy you just did, I'm sure you're going to get real popular.

Now, I can see Proverbius's point, in that the language used in the guide would seem to preclude the rating I gave the game. I'm not sure how he knows that a dungeon crawler is "easy as hell" to make--if they were, I would presume that the Fallout fan community would already be hard at work on a version of Brotherhood of Steel that would make Interplay's look like Angband--but I can appreciate what he's saying.

First off, if you don't know how easy it is to make a cheap crawler to F:POS' level (when I talk about crawlers from now on, I'm referring to uninspired BG:DA clones), especially compared to other games, then you need to go back to journalism school. Oh, wait, they don't require that for "gaming press", nevermind.

The main worry about crawlers is a variety of scenery change and enough other flash, along with a fun combat system. Next is level design and all that. You don't have to worry about a good number of things such as elements you'd find in most CRPGs.

In addition, by your insinuating that crawlers aren't so easy else the Fallout community would have made some, you've just made yourself sound quite obtuse. No Fallout fans have made such a crawler because it really doesn't appeal to Fallout fans, especially not at this point.

Don't quit Burger King, kid. I see a better future for you there.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Aren't you the guy who wrote the infamous "Why I Hate BoS" FAQ? Have you actually played the game yet?

No, he wrote 27 reasons where Fallout Enforcer fucked up the Fallout setting. Huge difference.

If you're only avoiding the game because of fannish devotion to a seven-year-old PC RPG that many of you seem to feel that you own in some way, then you're not only working yourselves into an unnecessary frenzy over an irrelevant piece of luxury software, but you're allowing a preexisting and irrational prejudice to keep you from enjoying a decent and entertaining video game.

Bob and Phil don't read this site. You don't have to spare their fragile egos here. However, instead of me taking the time to point out that your job as a reviewer isn't to protect Bob and Phil's fragile egos, but to inform the consumer on their purchases, I'll show you what a gamer thinks of the game who writes a FAR, FAR better critique of the game than you could ever do:

http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=37966

I'm not just pointing that out because I agree with it. I'm pointing it out because it has concrete examples of how utterly flawed the title is.

In case IPLY deletes that thread, here's a mirror of the post here:

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3129

Notice he mentions how poorly done things are like dual wielding, the targetting system, the skills system, and so on. He even goes in to detail WHY these things are flawed.

THAT'S what I expect to see in a review, not a virtual hand job for Bob and Phil.

[4too]

Social Skills

Thanks for the links.

The player-reviewer at the I'play Forum seems to have no hidden agenda. Unless a game play experience on the level he had with BG:DA ( a.k.a. FUN) is an unreasonable expectation of "fan-nish-ism" (to BG:DA) to bring to the control pad.

I like the way that the Shad-Palidan in a reply, surmised that the environment of post apoca' via the SPECIAL system must be a poor venue for action-role players. Only fan-tasy universes, and D and D class systems are adequate. I don't recall a direct critique of the "rulz iz fo lozzerz", ARTISTIC, team that cobbled together FO:BOS in this. But I think it's implied.

But to be more direct.

The player-reviewer did wish that any sequel, NOT, be done by the same crew.

What is interesting is the lack of SHARING between player characters in the co-op mode. This was "handled" in BG:DA by dropping items.
It's not clear that auto pickup can be disabled. The player-reviewer was not able to disable auto pick up.

Maybe Team Cuevas deemed sharing a forgotten social skill in their post apoca' vision, and the way it was handled in BG:DA insulted their artistic
sensibilities of "balls out" action.

Maybe sharing to enhance a team effort in co-op play is outside the level of consciousness and personal experience of those behind FO:BOS. Or,
maybe they never had the play test time for co-op to see the advantages
to the real game players, (the future customers), and that it would not destroy play balance, nor tarnish their street cred of machismo individualism.

It appears that players must furnish their own, brown bag their own, social skills.

4too

Cute word association macro here, so "fan-tasy" equates "sh't" in this time zone.... putting words or invectives in my mouth is not as insidious as Interplay's Orwellian concept of slash and burn editorial-ism, yet it is
a queazy form of paternalism, .. Big Daddy. I lub Big Daddy!

4too-2

[Role-Player]

Further, you have to understand, when we talk shit about a game or the people who made it, these are guys we're gonna see tomorrow or the next day at some press event or another. They aren't a nameless pack of bastards like they often are to you guys; they're Bob and Phil from the gaming company. It's a lot harder to really go off on a game, even if it does deserve it, when it represents three years out of the life of a guy who you know, and when you know he's gonna read it.

Should it work like that? I mean, people should be able to criticise things without fear for any type of reaction out of other people. The amount of time spent on a product is not always indicative of a team's, or a person's, expertise (that's certainly visible in FO:BoS). Should we cut people slack because they release mediocre products just because we are afraid to hurt their feelings? This kind of attitude, in my opinion, only helps bring out a sort of leniency towards aything developers put out, and not any exercise in criticism (which is what is actually needed).

[Core Puzzle]

I reckon Bob and Phil are either extremely sensitive, or a couple of 3 year olds. Since they had a hand in the making of FO:BOS, i'm hesitant to rule out either option.

If Bob and Phil does bad, surely it's better for all of us if you criticize them for what they've done, rather than telling them they've done good. Or in other words, if you praise your dog when it shits on the carpet, how's it ever gonna learn?

[Adolfo The Terrible]

What the hell is Fallout Enforcer???

[Ozrat]

Amusing...

[Megatron]

Who'd be friends with chuck and co.?

Go home and count the chicklets son, you just aren't l337 enough.

[Rosh]

THAT'S what I expect to see in a review, not a virtual hand job for Bob and Phil.

That looked more like a kneepad and helmet job to me.