Okay, enough silence, lets get to flamin
Republican Rhetoric
I personally like Four More Wars, Four More Wars.zetabobster wrote:1000 more years, 1000 more years
I don't get America's fetish on soldiers at all. I don't get American media's mission to glorify war. Just because Politican X didn't fight teh gooks/krauts doesn't mean that politican doesn't know how to run a nation.Che Gone Pirate wrote:Oh, so is that it then? That's why Kerry is fit to be the president? Because being a veteran causes you to not be a "pussy bitch?"
I refuse to believe that an intimate knowledge of the grunt lifestyle is required for anything. War can't be what the U.S. is at heart.
Bush is a Christian extremist. If it's not in the bible, it's not fit for this world.Bush is not Hitler, Bush is nothing like Hitler. There are much eviler people on the planet, such as Saddam.
....And Bush flips flops just as much as Kerry, we just have really short attention spans.
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airsoft guy
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I think you're missing my point on the Vietnam War and being a soldier making you competant to lead the country. I think it's a bullshit point that doesn't matter unless you happen to be someone REALLY high up who commanded a lot of people. Like a general (not Wesley Clark) for example, unless they happen to be a career guy who knows nothing except how mentally give a guy a blow job so he can get farther in his career.Mr. Green wrote:
I don't get America's fetish on soldiers at all. I don't get American media's mission to glorify war. Just because Politican X didn't fight teh gooks/krauts doesn't mean that politican doesn't know how to run a nation.
I refuse to believe that an intimate knowledge of the grunt lifestyle is required for anything. War can't be what the U.S. is at heart.
Bush is a Christian extremist. If it's not in the bible, it's not fit for this world.
If Bush was an Christian extremist during Hitler's reign he would have been put into a camp with the Jews. Just because Hitler wasn't a Jew friendly kind of guy doesn't mean that he was buddy-buddy with everyone else.
Furthermore I don't really see how Bush is this exrtemist everyone keeps talking about. It really seems like just the fact that he's a Chritian makes him an extremist in the eyes of many people. He's really not all that extreme, he just happens to be a Christian and a Republican to me.
George Bush lowered taxes so the Jews could kill Michael Moore.
Duck and Cover: THE site for all your Fallout, gay porn, White Supremacist and goatse needs.
Duck and Cover: THE site for all your Fallout, gay porn, White Supremacist and goatse needs.
Since the end of the revolutionary war the United States has deployed its armed forces in overseas conflicts or for police duties 241 times. Only 5 of these wars/actions were declared and authorized by congress. This makes us the most warlike nation on the planet .Mr. Green wrote:War can't be what the U.S. is at heart.
Note: the number does not include internal wars against Indian nations or the Civil War.
The primary reason we go to war now is that the powers that be want a steady and uninterrupted flow of resources into the vast industrial machine*** that they own. This machine is owned by multinational corporations and we the citizenry have become addicted to its output.
To hear George Bush tell it we took out Saddam because he was a clear and present danger to the world a mad man butchering his own people and harboring Islamic fundamentalist terrorists by the battalion.** (he was a monster true). Actually even if he had all the WMD's he was accused of having he would still have been a very minor threat militarily outside the region.
Of course the real reason Saddam was removed was because Iraq’s oil production was way down due to the sanctions imposed by the USA and UN and the damage caused to Iraq's oil infrastructure in the gulf war and the Iran vs. Iraq war. The United states and much of Europe had no intentions of allowing a nut like Saddam to re-arm with piles of oil money and further destabilized the region and interrupt the flow. The powers that be in the USA wanted some control of that oil and they also wanted the output to increase to drive down the price of crude oil. Saddam clearly had to go, but human rights, terrorism, and his non existent WMD's had nothing to with the decision to take him out they were the only the justification.
In one of the most transparently false and cynical moves in history Dubya linked our just war against Islamic fundamentalist terror organizations with an oil war meant to line the pockets of the multinational corporations that own this country. I wonder how long after 911 did it take the guilty to see the opportunity to make a grab for Iraq's oil.
If OPEC suddenly caused fuel prices in the US to suddenly shoot up to the level that Europeans* have been paying for years a horde of people from the Left, right, and center would be clamoring for war against those that are 'destroying our way of life' . Left wing Soccer moms that own big gas guzzling SUV's would be arm an arm with right wing Hunters that own gas guzzling 4 x 4 trucks screaming for war. What do you think Mr & Mrs Joe average would want if gasoline was suddenly $5.00 a gallon they would be pissed the cost to commute to work would have more than doubled.
* The high price of Euro gas is really due to absurdly high taxation at the pump, not a result of getting clipped by OPEC any more than we are.
**Saddam as a cigar smoking, whisky drinking, playboy secularist was always hated and despised by the Islamic fundamentalists, and while he may have provided some minor financial and material assistance to such groups so that they could attack his enemies (us) the fact remains that he was far too paranoid to allow many of them to ever exist on his turf.
***If we need to blame somone for the USA becoming such a mega machine we can blame the Europeans. The explosion of industryand technology in the USA caused by WW2 where THE US and the British## pulled European chesnuts out of the fire started the machine rolling full force. If the Europeans had dealt with Hitler and bumped him out of power when he first started ratteling his little sabre instead of kissing his ass until there was no more ass to kiss the world would be a very different place today.
##sure there were other nations that fought against the little corporal and his sicko government but I am talking about the industrial force behind his demise. The Russians actually were most responsible for Hitlers demise since they sucked up over 50 percent of his war effort.
I just want to point out I'm a bit irked by every American assuming the Brits owe us for helping in WWII. They wouldn't have been in such deep shit if we'd stepped up in the first place. And they held their own for a long time without us. LEts stop harping on it already. It's annyoing,and it makes us look like idiotic braggarts.
Life is like cheap whiskey, it's mostly bad, and leaves a shitty taste in your mouth, but it's better then nothing.
Now did I say anything even remotely like that? no you said it.S4ur0n27 wrote:Yeah, it's all the Europeans' fault and viva teh USA.
Doc Everything dosen't have to be our fault does it?DocHill wrote:They wouldn't have been in such deep shit if we'd stepped up in the first place
The Facts:
When Hitler first took power he immediately started to rebuild his military in direct violation of the treaty of Versailles and everyone in Europe outside of Germany felt uneasy as he militarized but the Euros did NOTHING. Instead of stepping in to hammer his nazi ass in the mid 1930's when his military was small weak the European allies turned a blind eye to his military expansion and adopted a policy of appeasement. Hell, Neville Chamberlain crawled on his hands and knees to Hitler and forked over the Sudetenland in the hope that he would be satisfied he wasn’t. Soon after he took Austria, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and still France and Britain did nothing but wet their pants and wring their hands. Ah yes "peace in our time"
In august of 1934 when the little corporal took power the German Military was weak
Army 100,000 with almost no artillery, and no tanks
Air Force Non existent.
Navy A small coastal defense force, no submarines no major combatents.
By October of 1934 under Hitler’s direction
Army 300,000 troops, and tanks, PC's, artillery are introduced on a massive scale
Air Force Hitler starts to build Europe’s most modern Air Force.
Navy Major combatants under construction, to include Submarines.
In 1936 after two years of Hitler’s guns before butter program Germany has the most modern army in Europe its still moderately sized but it is new and has new doctrine. Even by the time the war broke out in 1939 The French and British forces were more than twice the size of the German force and had more tanks artillery etc.
After the invasion of Poland The French and the British forces on the continent did NOTHING but sit on their hands from September 1939 to April 1940 and thus allowed Germany to further enlarge and re arm its force. The allies sat immobile until in April of 1940 Germany attacked through the low countries and smashed the French Army and shoved the Britons off the continent.
It seems to me that there was plenty of time for the Euros to resolve the Hitler problem before 1939 but they didn’t and I wonder Doc Hill how is any of that the fault of the USA?
Doc let us not forget that from 1939 to 1945 the USA didnt just sit and twiddel its thumbs it transfered warships, tanks, ammo, artillery, and food to GB in massive quantities and also started the process of building an army. You see DocHIll the leftests of that time had managed to reduce the US Army to a point that by 1939 it ranked 17th in the world in terms of size, So I ask you how could we have stepped in any sooner and with what?
Hitler was Europe AND America's fault. The worl powers taxed her into oblivion after WWI, creating the circumstances for Hitler to rise up. We were as much a part of those "reperations" as anyone. Then when Hitler started his march, our isolationists idiots hampered our involvement, forcing the President to pen the lend lease act, the best he could make of having his hands tied by idiots. It took a direct atttack on us for them to finally realise this war was a world affair. If we had stepped in when Hitler...lets say invaded France, there's a nice big, well known and artitstic nation, what would it have been like. I just think it's pompous to harp for over sixty years on how "we pulled their chestnuts out of the fire" We're luckly we ahad a damned fine President back then. Besides, if anyone saved them, it was the Russians in the end, if they hadn't halted Hitler's advance, and caused him to fight a war on two fronts, who know how bad it would of been?
Oh, and it was the right wing that was so gung ho about "America first".
Oh, and it was the right wing that was so gung ho about "America first".
Last edited by Doc Hill on Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Life is like cheap whiskey, it's mostly bad, and leaves a shitty taste in your mouth, but it's better then nothing.
Oh, and before I get slammed on the whole size of army thing, and not directly confronting it, I'm getting my facts together. I try not to make up stuff:)Get me in more trouble hten it's worth.
Life is like cheap whiskey, it's mostly bad, and leaves a shitty taste in your mouth, but it's better then nothing.
here is a link for ya doc.
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/army.htm
In all fairness I have to say.
In the end you are partly right, we should have gotten the ball rolling a lot sooner and started our military expansion in say 1932-33 when the Japanese conquered Manchuria. Everyone knew that a war was coming, I wonder if Hitler would have been so bold in 1939 if the US Army had a modern mechanized standing force of 600,000 men, 3000 good tanks and 12,000 artillery pieces and the means to deploy them rapidly? I really don’t think however that you can hang isolationism on the right wing. or the left wing it was a national desire that cut across political and economic boundaries. Hind sight is always 20-20 but we have learned from that mistake that’s why we now maintain a reasonably large force. We just don’t need to use that force or the blood of our soldiers to grab oil to make the ultra rich richer.
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/army.htm
True, the treaty of Versailles was a major root cause of WW2.DocHill wrote:The worl powers taxed her into oblivion after WWI, creating the circumstances for Hitler to rise up.
False, The USA received virtually nothing in the form of reparations from Germany, Britain and France sucked up most of that and France annexed German territory. GB and France also reneged on their war debt to the USA by tying German reparations to the repayment of their war debt to the USA. In all Germany paid 9 billion dollars in reparations but received 8 billion dollars in long term loans. The real hit came in the form of land transfers to the French how could Germany have recovered if they didn’t have the natural resources to do it. The French also sucked up most of the old German colonies.DocHill wrote:We were as much a part of those "reperations" as anyone
We could have done what? Check your facts Doc in 1939 we had an Army that was ranked 17th in size in the world. Its size was about 170,000 men of which only 50,000 were in combat units like infantry, and artillery. The Army was deficient in tanks(last in the industrial world the tank corps had been eliminated after WW1) trucks, artillery and air power(10th in the world). It wasn’t until 1940 that draft was started and by late 1940 we had 1.4 million men in the army but 87% of them were raw recruits with just a few months of service. Face it Doc building a force takes time it took Hitler 5 years to build his Army, you are not the kind of guy that would send untrained recruits into combat are you?Doc Hill wrote:If we had stepped in when Hitler...lets say invaded France
In all fairness I have to say.
In the end you are partly right, we should have gotten the ball rolling a lot sooner and started our military expansion in say 1932-33 when the Japanese conquered Manchuria. Everyone knew that a war was coming, I wonder if Hitler would have been so bold in 1939 if the US Army had a modern mechanized standing force of 600,000 men, 3000 good tanks and 12,000 artillery pieces and the means to deploy them rapidly? I really don’t think however that you can hang isolationism on the right wing. or the left wing it was a national desire that cut across political and economic boundaries. Hind sight is always 20-20 but we have learned from that mistake that’s why we now maintain a reasonably large force. We just don’t need to use that force or the blood of our soldiers to grab oil to make the ultra rich richer.
No we were not. The reparations imposed upon the defeated Gemany of post-WWI was insisted upon by the French, because their honor was sullied, and wanted some revenge for having egg on their (collective) face.Doc Hill wrote:Hitler was Europe AND America's fault. The worl powers taxed her into oblivion after WWI, creating the circumstances for Hitler to rise up. We were as much a part of those "reperations" as anyone.
President Woodrow Wilson came up with his "14 Points", which would have made the world a different place if it had been adopted. But it wasn't.
Here's a link for those 14 points:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/14points.html
MurPHy
That was a good read MurPHy I learned something I never read the 14 points before thanks for the info.
The only reparations the USA received was in the form of captured weapons and ships. we received some interesting German field artillery, weapons, and a few German ships that were raised out of the mud after being scuttled at Scapa Flow one of which was the BB Ostfriesland that Billy Mitchell and his boys sunk in a dive bombing test in the 20's .
The French on the other hand really wanted to stick it to Germany the French lost 1.4 million troops killed and another 4 million maimed in WW1.
A brief examination of the French general staff and their belief in 'élan' or vigorous attacking at all costs will show that those morons cause a half a million of those KIA's themselves by attacking German positions in open country with massed infantry and little artillery support. at Chemin des Dames the French general staff threw away the lives of 250,000 of their own troops through such idiotic attacks in the face of prepared German machine gun positions and defenses. At that point the French Army went into a series of mutinies refused to obey orders to attack (good for them).
Wilson was a good man to be president at that time he was intelligent and thoughtful. When our expeditionary force landed the French High command summoned General Pershing to their HQ and told him that US forces were to be broken up and shipped to the front to fill in the French lines and that no US officers above the rank of lt colonel need be involved. Pershing told the King pin French Field Marshal that he had no intentions of allowing any incompetent French generals to spend the lives of Americans as cheaply as they had spent the lives of their own troops. Wilson backed him up 100%.
When I think about the hatred that the Euros have for us I think that perhaps it would have been better to let the Soviet Union and the Euros
hammer out their differences without our assistance. Our founding fathers warned us to never become involved in European wars I think they were right.
That was a good read MurPHy I learned something I never read the 14 points before thanks for the info.
The only reparations the USA received was in the form of captured weapons and ships. we received some interesting German field artillery, weapons, and a few German ships that were raised out of the mud after being scuttled at Scapa Flow one of which was the BB Ostfriesland that Billy Mitchell and his boys sunk in a dive bombing test in the 20's .
The French on the other hand really wanted to stick it to Germany the French lost 1.4 million troops killed and another 4 million maimed in WW1.
A brief examination of the French general staff and their belief in 'élan' or vigorous attacking at all costs will show that those morons cause a half a million of those KIA's themselves by attacking German positions in open country with massed infantry and little artillery support. at Chemin des Dames the French general staff threw away the lives of 250,000 of their own troops through such idiotic attacks in the face of prepared German machine gun positions and defenses. At that point the French Army went into a series of mutinies refused to obey orders to attack (good for them).
Wilson was a good man to be president at that time he was intelligent and thoughtful. When our expeditionary force landed the French High command summoned General Pershing to their HQ and told him that US forces were to be broken up and shipped to the front to fill in the French lines and that no US officers above the rank of lt colonel need be involved. Pershing told the King pin French Field Marshal that he had no intentions of allowing any incompetent French generals to spend the lives of Americans as cheaply as they had spent the lives of their own troops. Wilson backed him up 100%.
When I think about the hatred that the Euros have for us I think that perhaps it would have been better to let the Soviet Union and the Euros
hammer out their differences without our assistance. Our founding fathers warned us to never become involved in European wars I think they were right.
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Kashluk
The main reason why Europe "turned the other cheek" to the German military expansion post-WW1 was that nobody wanted another war. The horrors of the 4-year long war was fresh in the memory and everybody knew how much Germany was humiliated. The treaty of Versailles was clearly an overkill - the main point wasn't just to incapacitate Germany but to also hit it's ego and self-respect big time.
Ie. "So the Germans want to build a few tanks and aeroplanes. Let them do so, they've had enough of the shit treatment from us already." It was just a bad decision. The leaders of Europe thought they could avoid another war by 'forgiving' Germany, not by 'beating a dead horse'. If you understand what I mean.
Ie. "So the Germans want to build a few tanks and aeroplanes. Let them do so, they've had enough of the shit treatment from us already." It was just a bad decision. The leaders of Europe thought they could avoid another war by 'forgiving' Germany, not by 'beating a dead horse'. If you understand what I mean.
Kashluk good post!
I know you are right WW1 was a mind fuck for the entire western world. Europe was in shock, the war cost on both sides 8.5 million killed, 21 million wounded and 8 million missing and cost 200,000,000,000 dollars.
No one especially in Europe wanted to even think that it could happen again especially so soon. It caused the people of Europe to look the other way and be blind to the warning signs of German militarism and drove The United States into isolationism. Even the German people had no idea that Hitler was the monster he proved to be. To them he was a hero, the man that restored their national pride and pulled them out of the depression.
Its really impossible to assign blame and its human nature to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Imagine how mind fucked Russia was by 1939 they lost more people than anyone else in WW1 and then another ten million in political purges initiated by Joseph Stalin.
'War never changes'
I know you are right WW1 was a mind fuck for the entire western world. Europe was in shock, the war cost on both sides 8.5 million killed, 21 million wounded and 8 million missing and cost 200,000,000,000 dollars.
No one especially in Europe wanted to even think that it could happen again especially so soon. It caused the people of Europe to look the other way and be blind to the warning signs of German militarism and drove The United States into isolationism. Even the German people had no idea that Hitler was the monster he proved to be. To them he was a hero, the man that restored their national pride and pulled them out of the depression.
Its really impossible to assign blame and its human nature to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Imagine how mind fucked Russia was by 1939 they lost more people than anyone else in WW1 and then another ten million in political purges initiated by Joseph Stalin.
'War never changes'
