Duck and Cover

ah yes, and back to the topic.

i dont think they should have any G36's, and besides, the G36 doesnt use caseless, its the G11 that uses casless. and despite all the benifits of casless ammo, i bet it would deteriorate after some time, unless properly stored in a ::ahem:: Military Base. yes... indeed. but if they did make a g36, it should be something like "G012" and use something like 6.2 mm rounds or something made up. cause then it wont be exploited because of ammo abundency, unless you can load up enough from the military base where you find it.

on that note, i think you should find gauss rifles only from high tech places, not like in FO2 where you could buy one from Red88 or that other guy in SanFran. how the hell did they manage to get a gauss rifle? kill and enclave guy? ...right...

Strapon2 wrote:on that note, i think you should find gauss rifles only from high tech places, not like in FO2 where you could buy one from Red88 or that other guy in SanFran. how the hell did they manage to get a gauss rifle? kill and enclave guy? ...right...

I agree, getting a new and more powerful weapon/armor should be a quest reward or lie somewhere where it is hard to get. Not in a store where you get it for a couple of thousand caps. Because of these 'hidden treasures' the player would be more interested in solving optional quests or areas, knowing there might be something in there waiting for you... For example exploring some optional deeper levels of a underground base, like the Glow. Shops should sell ammo and less effective weapons and items. Or maybe have a few special items, like a modified Desert Eagle. :roll:

As far as im concerned, the G36 is just another Assault Rifle-type weapon using 5.56mm bullets.

Im pretty good at making up fake names for weapons not invented yet - like the SE-6 combination grenade launching assault rifle system.

And bullets too - though I tend to be more plain than most when it comes to ammo; stuff like 7mm rifle bullets, 20mm rockets, and 30mm shotgun shells.

Who ever thought of making a rifle bullet that not only had a calibre of .223 inches and 5.56mm... neither of those numbers are very standardized. It's like making the freezing point on the farenheight scale to be 32degrees instead of 0.

Why didn't they simply make a 5mm or 6mm rifle bullet. Then of course there's always the minor differences in much of the 7.6mm bullets (.3006, .308, .303, the list goes on). Should have simply made all of them 7.5mm or maybe even upgraded them to 8mm.

on that note, i think you should find gauss rifles only from high tech places, not like in FO2 where you could buy one from Red88 or that other guy in SanFran. how the hell did they manage to get a gauss rifle? kill and enclave guy? ...right...

As I recall some of the people in the tanker had high-tech guns. Someone there has a XL enfield and someone has a G11. Someone there actually *has* an M-72 gauss rifle too (guy at the bar), I think someone else has a pancor jackhammer too. They're awful rich to get those weapons for being poor tanker vagrants eh?

I think that the tanker had a whole buncha stuff left on it from when the enclave got done with it and installed the FOB system (before it rolled into harbor), but I would think that the enclave would have been a little more complete in retrieving items as valuable as gauss rifles and other high-tech guns (they did leave the wanamingo monsters there as guard dogs).

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The G11 sucks. It's a great armor penetrator, but doesnt do all that much damage... and it automatically fires in 3 shot bursts from what i've heard (which means that you lose ammo much faster). And yes - being caseless exposes the propellant directly to the elements, severly limiting it's shelf-life. Cased bullets are much more reliable (but I wouldn't put money down that they'd last more than 80 years).

I think that there shouldn't be as much of a money bottleneck as there was in fallout2... it was rediculous. But they did it so that you'd have to eventually screw yourself out of a whole buncha money by selling items directly for items and not simply cashing in. That doesn't mean that I had to like it though.

Yes, shops should sell much more ammunition... or sometimes even use ammo as a form of currency (oooh, think of the possibilities - the more ammo you shoot, the poorer you get, but it's really an exchange of money for power and possible loot).

Ammunition should also be as expensive as the difficulty required in making it (since i'd assume that all ammo you'd use would have been produced by someone locally, not scavenged). But it should definatly be cheap as well - enough pistol and rifle bullets to kill a few people should be attainable with chump change.

Weapons which are abnormally unbalanced (sort of like the .223 autoloader, and IMO how the FN FAL should have been in Fo2) should probably have a limited supply of ammunition. That way you can't rely on using a tried-and-true super weapon to quickly dispatch characters which should be really tough to beat.

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Shortening weapons doesn't do much but make them a little quicker to handle, reduces range, and reduces damage (slightly). It doesn't reduce AP cost - but makes it easier to unsling off your shoulder (-1AP to retrieve from inventory).

Maybe could do something like how the scoped hunting rifle couldn't hit targets up close very well. Like, a shortened version of a weapon hasn't got a problem up close but one with a long barrel gets negatives at close range (not too much, but enough to get it out of the 95% range). Also could make weapons with longer barrels vulnerable to being sundered - knocked out of your hands by a melee attack.

Also, could have two different types of single attacks - snap and aimed. Aimed takes 1 AP more to shoot, but you get subtantially increased range as well as increased critical rating. Snap attacks would have less range but would cost 3 or 4 AP (3AP for a really small weapon like a pistol, 4AP for a rifle). Maybe a weapon with a long barrel could be remanded to having no snap attack and only doing aimed. I think that burst attacks should probably also remain at 6ap - even for SMGs... since it takes time to recover from them and they make your guns turn into super weapons (game balance issue). And what about reloading? Reloading takes *time*.

recap:
snap attack - 4ap (3ap handgun)
aimed attack - 5ap (4ap handgun)
burst attack - 6ap
aimed+targeted attack - 6ap (5ap handgun)
reload - 3ap (5ap+ for bigger guns)

Of course you can still make bigger guns use up more AP - an especially tantalizing concept for energy weapons which take time to charge up (like a big-arse laser or plasma gun, has a whining power up phase or a cool-off or something). I dont want to see much in the way of clip-fed explosive weapons unless the ammo is rare.

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Clip sizes for handguns should be 6 bullets for revolvers, 7-12 bullets for a compact handgun, 12-15 bullets for a normal handgun, and up to 30 bullets for a non-standard handgun (like the gauss pistol or DE expanded mag).

Rifles should have a minimum clip of 10 - even the sniper rifles (either that or single shot). Standard magazine for an assault rifle should be 20, a better one (you have to buy) being 30, and drums of 50. Maybe you could obtain a special dual-drum of 100 by going on a quest.

Belt fed weapons should probably only have ammo in belts of 200, that way you dont get screwed outta ammo, and you cant go happy shooting with a minigun for too long. Could just make that the standard... limits the power of a minigun and gives heavy machineguns more power. Miniguns eat through ammo quick and take forever to reload, heavy machineguns dont do much more damage than assault rifles but with a belt of ammo they practically never run out (they also take forever to load, but you also take a long time to run out too). A belt of 50 or 100 runs the risk of making the weapon too underpowered for game balance (why use an m-249 when you can use an m-16 with a drum of 50... which is also slightly more powerful too and has much longer range?).

Sirgalahadwizard wrote:Im pretty good at making up fake names for weapons not invented yet - like the SE-6 combination grenade launching assault rifle system.

Hm... SE-6 C-GLARS? Sounds kewl

And bullets too - though I tend to be more plain than most when it comes to ammo; stuff like 7mm rifle bullets, 20mm rockets, and 30mm shotgun shells.

7mm... Exists. 20mm... Exists.

Why didn't they simply make a 5mm or 6mm rifle bullet. Then of course there's always the minor differences in much of the 7.6mm bullets (.3006, .308, .303, the list goes on). Should have simply made all of them 7.5mm or maybe even upgraded them to 8mm.

Or what about 9.3mm? Sure it's a real-life caliber, but it's the best elk-killing round available.

The G11 sucks. It's a great armor penetrator, but doesnt do all that much damage... and it automatically fires in 3 shot bursts from what i've heard (which means that you lose ammo much faster). And yes - being caseless exposes the propellant directly to the elements, severly limiting it's shelf-life. Cased bullets are much more reliable (but I wouldn't put money down that they'd last more than 80 years).

G11 is great. It's both a great penetrator & a great damager. You don't "lose" ammo. You USE ammo against your target. Anyways 42:3 ain't so bad. And IMO the only better side in cased 'munition is the fact that it can be easily refilled, unlike caseless.

Yes, shops should sell much more ammunition... or sometimes even use ammo as a form of currency (oooh, think of the possibilities - the more ammo you shoot, the poorer you get, but it's really an exchange of money for power and possible loot).

Sounds fun, but for the sake of gameplay balance let's just use bottlecaps.

Shortening weapons doesn't do much but make them a little quicker to handle, reduces range, and reduces damage (slightly). It doesn't reduce AP cost - but makes it easier to unsling off your shoulder (-1AP to retrieve from inventory).

Otherwise good, but it should ALSO reduce penetration (kinda related to the damage) and not just slightly. Less power, less range, less penetration.

Maybe could do something like how the scoped hunting rifle couldn't hit targets up close very well. Like, a shortened version of a weapon hasn't got a problem up close but one with a long barrel gets negatives at close range (not too much, but enough to get it out of the 95% range). Also could make weapons with longer barrels vulnerable to being sundered - knocked out of your hands by a melee attack.

That's perfect. Honestly, that's one of the best suggestions I've ever read.

Also, could have two different types of single attacks - snap and aimed. Aimed takes 1 AP more to shoot, but you get subtantially increased range as well as increased critical rating. Snap attacks would have less range but would cost 3 or 4 AP (3AP for a really small weapon like a pistol, 4AP for a rifle). Maybe a weapon with a long barrel could be remanded to having no snap attack and only doing aimed. I think that burst attacks should probably also remain at 6ap - even for SMGs... since it takes time to recover from them and they make your guns turn into super weapons (game balance issue). And what about reloading? Reloading takes *time*.

Nah, already got Single & Target, no need for snap & aim.

[/quote]Rifles should have a minimum clip of 10 - even the sniper rifles (either that or single shot). Standard magazine for an assault rifle should be 20, a better one (you have to buy) being 30, and drums of 50. Maybe you could obtain a special dual-drum of 100 by going on a quest.[/quote]

No offense, but an average (bolt-lock) rifle has a magazine of 4-6 rounds. But yeah, Assault Rifles' default clip should be 20, I agree on that.

The SE-6 GLARS was (my own) equivalent of the OICW, with the bottom part of the weapon being the grenade launching module (detachable), and the top part being the assault rifle.

The assault rifle was fed by a top-loading clip like the P-90 (except using 5.56mm instead of 5.7mm), and the clip hanging off the bottom was for the grenade launcher (5 or 10 shot clip, capable of loading spread, slug, or explosive ordinance; haven't decided weither it should be pump action or semi-auto). Total weight was about 8-12lbs (more when loaded).

I wasnt glaring about 7mm and 20mm not existing, just that odd numbered calibres are being used as standardized ammo (ie, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 11.5mm {.45cal} and 12.7mm {.50cal}). Just like 9.3mm... i woulda made it simply 9mm or upgraded it to 10mm.

Good point about the smaller weapons having a reduced penetration. That way they dont pierce armor as well. And for god's sake if you do a targeted shot of any kind (even to the torso!) you should get a nice phat bonus to critical.

And weapon sundering should be in the game. Dood, if i've got 120% on unarmed or melee weapons, I should be able to knock just about any medium or large sized weapon out of someone's hands unless they've got monumental strength to keep holding it (or an enormous agility to avoid my attack). Could consider that a targeted shot to the weapon itself.

On that same note... Something neat I remember from FOT was that a robot shot my M2 Browning and actually did damage to it, had to get my repair guy to fix the thing. If a weapon gets sundered it should take damage like anything else (which would mean that it'd be a good idea to give all items health and armor values of their own... what's another 100-300k when your game is a multi-CD set?).

I dont think that knocking a gun out of a guys hands would be very fun. It would suck when you get surrounded and guys are knocking your gun out of your hands. Anyway, why dont they just use a knife or broken bottle or something if they can even get that close.

As for the barrel length thing, i also dont agree on that. There are some exeptions of course, but this is more in the area of physics and all that nonsense. First off, the PC shouldnt even be able to HOLD a minigun, much less shoot it for prolonged periods. If you get into barrel lengths and stuff, it would all be pointless. No matter how close I am to a guy, if I have a .38 snub nose or Barrett .50 Caliber, Im still going to try to shoot his ass.

But those are the exception, not the rule.

vVolf wrote:Thats some nice Quote work there, Kashluk.
PPfffft, i saw an AK-47 with a mag that went all the way to the nozzle. ALL THE WAY, an it bent around, an it must have been carryin about 127 freakin bullets....Mabye more.

You probably saw a 55-round magazine, as you'd be surprised how much of the space inside of that thing was taken up by the spring. (BTW, those things are largely fucking useless. They are prone to jamming and I'd like to see you try to use one from the prone position, which is where every sane/competent infantryman spends most of his day.)

Kash said the "default mag" should be 20, and that's pretty close to the standard for an AK, which is 30 rounds. In FO, however, you have to look at game balance. Do you want to give everyone weapons that can be "loaded on Sunday and shot all week"? Not really. So the capacity should be enough for 2-4 bursts, then the weapon has to be reloaded. Notice that the AK-112 in FO/FO2 held 24 rounds, which is enough for exactly three bursts, just as the 10mm SMG (AKA H&K MP-9) holds 30 rounds, which is enough for exactly three bursts. An Assault Rifle that holds a ludicrous amount of ammo is fine, as long as it's not readily available, just like the Assault Rifle (Ext. Cap.), which holds 100 rounds had to be upgraded in FO2, it was not found lying around on the street or in the hands of every two-bit Raider.

BTW, it's a "muzzle" not a "nozzle".

OTB

I think a catapult would be sweet.

You could easily kill a man, and many small critters with one. Plus you could use the rocks lying around, steel slugs and other stuff.

The sniper rifle in fallout isnt much of a sniper rifle...more of a high-powered hunting rifle. A prper sniper rifle could only fire aimed shots, take up about 7 AP and do about 120 damage, with a one bullet clip...mabye

Pyro wrote:I think a catapult would be sweet.

You could easily kill a man, and many small critters with one. Plus you could use the rocks lying around, steel slugs and other stuff.

I dunno. Catapults tend to be inaccurate and often too big and heavy for one man to operate. Also, the availability of 'historic' weapons in Fallout is a question, although an 18th century rifle would be interesting. I think a catapult is unpractical to use, and you don't have to siege things. A 9mm pistol would do the same business and is quite handy in a post-apocalyptic world.

The sniper rifle in fallout isnt much of a sniper rifle...more of a high-powered hunting rifle. A prper sniper rifle could only fire aimed shots, take up about 7 AP and do about 120 damage, with a one bullet clip...mabye

The world of fallout doesn't include modern weaponary(including modern sniper rifles). Sniper rifles in the 50's weren't so advanced, but you're right they should use more AP's and inflict more damage. Maybe if you're really fast(high agility, perks and traits lowering action costs) you could shoot twice/turn and possibly reload. Also, I think sniper rifles should have an accuracy bonus. Range should depend on your characters perception.

VasikkA wrote:
I dunno. Catapults tend to be inaccurate and often too big and heavy for one man to operate. Also, the availability of 'historic' weapons in Fallout is a question, although an 18th century rifle would be interesting. I think a catapult is unpractical to use, and you don't have to siege things. A 9mm pistol would do the same business and is quite handy in a post-apocalyptic world.

What? I'm talking about Y shaped pieces of wood/metal with elastistic between it. Put in whatever you want to shoot, pull back, release. A nice hole in a raiders head.

Catapults would be better than 9mm because...
-cheaper
-silent
-fast ROF
-mabye strength could decide how much damage you do? (strx3=dmg)
-ammo lying around everywhere
-the catapult is still being used today by kids wanting to smash windows and kill small animals. And were 9mm pistols in mass production in the 50s?

I think it would be a good weapon to have near the beginning, plus children finally have a dangerous weapon.

Catapult? Ahahahahahaha! You mean a slingshot!

*snicker*
Catapult...

Yes, a slingshot

I've always called them catapults. Perhaps it's because they come in a plastic packet that says AMAZING CATAPULT!

Pyro, here's a lesson:

CATAPULT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SLINGSHOT

Yeah I had a 12th century catapult in mind...
Anyway, slingshot would be cheap and silent, but useless.
Not a particularly fast ROF, almost the same as a pistol's. You don't have ammo lying around elsewhere than outside and in caves.
It wouldn't do any damage at all if the target is wearing at least some kind of armor though I'd love to attack an Enclave soldier armed with dual slingshots.

The kids in game would get a nice 'weapon' though. If you'd have to use a slingshot in Fallout 3, it'd probably be used in a 'Temple of Trials' kind of tutorial and used against over-sized bugs though I doubt it's very effective against them. Baldur's Gate and other fantasy shits have darts, so I guess a slingshot wouldn't be the worst weapon in CRPGs.

What if you took the butt of a rifle,The barrel of a shotgun,The silence of a rabid cat(hmm dont know about that one),And the body of a flame thrower.......Just think you would have a........
(rabid)rotgun thrower
(wow i scare myself some times)

wheres my arm? wrote:What if you took the butt of a rifle,The barrel of a shotgun,The silence of a rabid cat(hmm dont know about that one),And the body of a flame thrower.......Just think you would have a........
(rabid)rotgun thrower
(wow i scare myself some times)

You're fired.

Chosen_1

Chosen, you have a valid point, but you're leaving out half the story. A game wouldn't be fun if it were exactly like reality, which is why a first person shootemup makes a better game (IMHO) than a simulator like rainbow six.

As for barrel lengths, normally it wouldn't make a difference. But think about it... the hunting rifle in Fo1 did 8-20 damage, the .223 autoloader did 20-30. They both used the same ammunition.

Is there something wrong with this picture, or am I just seeing that the hunting rifle at it's best can barely match the .223 autoloader even at it's worst. What's more, the .223 autoloader practically doesn't have a barrel, and the hunting rifle probably has a 2-footer (maybe as much as 28"). And no, the hunting rifle isn't post war tech - it's a colt rangemaster (note the brand and model name, of which it wouldn't have one if it were post-war tech).

That only proves my point that sometimes these things have absolutly no bearing on the gameplay physics.

Half of designing weapons for a game is basing them in reality, which is only half the story. The other half is game balance; and depending on the genre you're making the game for, you may use different elements in weapon making that you normally wouldn't (post-apocalyptic earth counts as a science fiction venue, which is why you saw laser and plasma guns in Fallout universe, specifically any game taking place far into the future is expected to be science fiction).

I dont think that knocking a gun out of a guys hands would be very fun. It would suck when you get surrounded and guys are knocking your gun out of your hands. Anyway, why dont they just use a knife or broken bottle or something if they can even get that close.

As for the barrel length thing, i also dont agree on that. There are some exeptions of course, but this is more in the area of physics and all that nonsense. First off, the PC shouldnt even be able to HOLD a minigun, much less shoot it for prolonged periods. If you get into barrel lengths and stuff, it would all be pointless. No matter how close I am to a guy, if I have a .38 snub nose or Barrett .50 Caliber, Im still going to try to shoot his ass.

Personally, I find it very fun to knock a gatling laser out of a mutant's hands and blow his brains out with my .223 autoloader when he drops down to pick it up... especially when I only have 60 hitpoints and im wearing shitty armor.

I would find it interesting to fight in some kind of village or run into a gang where there are actually smart characters that are dangerous because of their tactics, not simply because of their abilities and implements.

Sundering my weapon and then karate kicking me back two spaces makes for an interesting dilemma, especially since at the end of the turn I wont be able to find cover and the sniper sitting on top of the roof will get a shot off at me (which would logically get a much better chance to cause a critical; and a targetted shot to the head - nasty).

Reducing barrel length is a good way to introduce potentially powerful weapons into the game at an earlier stage. Shorter barrel length means that they have less penetration, less accuracy (which is the important thing) and give you no reasonable critical hit bonus.

As for holding a minigun. Normally - impossible without landing on your ass. But it's part of the game fantasy to have a big-ass supercharacter with a minigun . It should be allowed, but you save face with reality by making the thing require a high strength and agility to use it .

How about :
Barret Light Fifty. This baby should be found late in the game as it is such a fantastic rifle. This sucker fires .50 rounds and judges distance, wind range stuff all for itself all you have to do is pull the trigger.

And a British Army LSW (Light Support Weapon). Takes 5.56mm bullets has a small scope, but jams a lot. They should include jamming in FO3.

M4 Carbine with underslung M203 Grenade Launcher. Again, takes 5.56mm but as a secondary fire mode 20mm grenades.

And an Elephant shotgun. This thing takes down an elephant in 1 or 2 shots and its ammo is... Whatever you can find thats metal or stone! :twisted: