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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:53 pm
by box
FALLOUT = RPG
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 = FPS
DEUS EX = FPS
That's what I said, only not so eloquent. Sheesh!
Actually, I'd rather play FO or FO2 for the combat aspect than any "real" tactical game, that's for sure. Certainly, the combat was better in FO than in FOT, and combat was
by defintion all tactics had going for it.
Also, as an aside:
- SYS SHOCK2= GAY
DEUS EX=TRANSGENDERED AND GAY
FO=MAGICALLY DELICIOUS
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:24 pm
by Jesus Christ
Koki wrote:Jesus, just shut the fuck up.
Why?
I thought that you and I are on the same page here???
Burnov is the one who is confused and trying to confuse everyone ells by calling Deus Ex a RPG.
Please don't be mad at me Koki.
I love you.
Koki wrote:FALLOUT = RPG
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 = FPS
DEUS EX = FPS
IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND
Burnov wrote:
Your Saviour wrote: It's is just like the children’s choose your own adventure books. "Games on rails" would indicate to me a linear story/game, a good RPG has a great story which is not in the least bit linear and instead woven by the reader/player as he/she advances.
Well see, Ideally to me, a good RPG has a good 25 to 40 percent dependence on the story, for me I find that the most rewarding experiences in a RPG are the events you create yourself whilst the overall story supplies a compelling backdrop. I prefer to create my own story as I go along. I find discussing those events that are unique to your method of play much more interesting.
Your Saviour wrote:
An RPG is not all about COMBAT. The combat aspect is marginal. An RPG is about choices and consequences, action/reaction one should be able to choose to never fight and still have a great gamming experience.
Oh let's face it, combat is marginalized in most rpgs by being trite meaningless stat accumulating affairs to simply get from point A to point B. If combat wasn't the compelling hook that bridges the gap between non combative choices and consequences, you'd have fucking myst with stats, and some expanded dialogue. Combat is an essential component to any RPG I enjoy, I enjoy the challenge of working through combat engagements strategically, utilizing multiple ways of accomplishing the same goal. That is the meat and potatoes so to speak of any game I play, and If I don't have fun killing shit. I'm going to enjoy the rest of what the game has to offer significantly less, since I'd be mindlessly playing to get from one story scene to the next.
Your Saviour wrote:
If by your "definition" Deus Ex in an RPG, than...
please forgive me for saying so...
Your definition of an RPG SUCKS!
No I agree that Deus Ex is a flaming sack of binary shit, but let's face it. It's not quite an FPS. Quake, Unreal, etc are the quintessential FPS and it does add in appearance everything that an RPG has, only with a more balanced emphasis on player interaction, that's all. It's just the execution was horrible and well yeah, shit. Not all RPGs are good, nor are they all exactly the same. I'd place games like Deus Ex in a category such as "RPG lite". But really just because you really like the genre, doesn't mean there are some very shitty variations of the core concept.
You see. I grudgingly give Deus Ex the classification even though I loathe the game, and games of it's type, with the exception of Daggerfall/Oblivion, moreso the former than the latter.
I only have one thing left to say to you...
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:29 pm
by Spazmo
VasikkA wrote:Microsoft has its own definition for roleplaying.
Uh. You're listening to Gwen Stefani?
NOW!
While DX and SS2 pretty much were FPSereses with skills, that doesn't mean a first person game can't be an RPG. It's just that they usually aren't because their Bethesda makes them. Admittedly, a first person perspective almost instantly translates to action-y combat, but as long as character skills have some impact on combat performance and other interaction with the gameworld, you're still looking at an RPG. Just a different type of RPG.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:14 pm
by Jesus Christ
An RPG should NOT REVOLVE AROUND COMBAT!
Combat is important, but a player should be able to play the role of someone who avoids fighting completly. A game like DX does not do this, it has pre defined your role and the only thing that the player may choose is his fighting style, and that choice has Zero impact on the game outcome. It's like watching an movie, only you get to aim the gun, the game still decids your role.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:21 pm
by Spazmo
Agreed--in the case of Deus Ex. But that's kind of like saying because NWN's OC was linear garbage that no isometric game could be a proper RPG, when of course that's not true. Personally, I prefer isometric games, and a first-person game would be less RPG that an isometric one (in the combat department, at least) AND it'd almost certainly be more combat heavy than otherwise (if not, why choose a perspective that lends itself so well to action combat?), BUT! it could still basically be an RPG.
If the first person "RPG"s we've had to date have been, well, "RPG"s, that's more due to issues with the individual games themselves than an inherent flaw of the first person perspective. It does not necessarily follow from a first person perspective that a game must be ultra-linear zero-RP garbage.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:23 pm
by Jesus Christ
NWN's OC?
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:31 pm
by Spazmo
The Neverwinter Nights Official Campaign. Completely uninspired trash, but by no means proof that the entire genre is hopeless.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:32 pm
by Koki
Jesus Christ wrote:Why?
I thought that you and I are on the same page here???
We were never at the same page, I'm an orthodox ateist which you should _know_.
If your dedication is so great though, you can smite box. He's dumb.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:00 pm
by Nicolai
Hellgate: London
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:25 pm
by baby arm
"SYS SHOCK2= GAY
DEUS EX=TRANSGENDERED AND GAY "
"An RPG should NOT REVOLVE AROUND COMBAT!
Combat is important, but a player should be able to play the role of someone who avoids fighting completly."
99.9% of all RPGs do revolve around combat. That's always been the case. Even Fallout, for the most part. Why does everyone want to pretend that this genre is something that it is not? So we can all feel smarter and stuff? RPGs != adventure games.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:54 pm
by Jesus Christ
baby arm wrote:RPGs != adventure games.
Close:
RPG= Choose your own adventure game.
I successfully finished Fallout without being a fighter (only the occasional rat skirmish). I would have done it for F2 if it wasn’t for that Lame temple of trials.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:51 pm
by Redeye
Jesus Christ wrote:baby arm wrote:RPGs != adventure games.
Close:
RPG= Choose your own adventure game.
I successfully finished Fallout without being a fighter (only the occasional rat skirmish). I would have done it for F2 if it wasn’t for that Lame temple of trials.
You can talk your way out of the fight at the end of Temple Of Trials.
Just run past all the other creatures.
Really easy.
Check out the FO2 speed run.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:58 pm
by Redeye
box wrote:FALLOUT = RPG
Actually, I'd rather play FO or FO2 for the combat aspect than any "real" tactical game, that's for sure. Certainly, the combat was better in FO than in FOT, and combat was by defintion all tactics had going for it.
Actually, FOT combat was better.
Stances, contours/elevations, cover, nice death animations.
Plus total control over team and can set some firing parameters.
Plus you could target empty spaces.
This allowed you to use the area effect of grenades and rockets on hidden enemies without having line of sight.
Sometimes setting up an ambush then switching to Real Time for a few seconds was fun.
The AI was fucked a bit in FOT = hiding enemies that wouldn't come out and set off traps... but still ...
TRAPS! You could set traps.
The AI/level design limited their use, but you could use claymores/etc.
FOT combat was way better than FO.
WTF you talkin' 'bout Willis?
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:18 pm
by Subhuman
System Shock 2 is both an RPG and an FPS. Really. From the minute you start the game you choose your "class" (psychic, combat, or technical, with a bunch of sub-branches within each), you build stats throughout, you use specialized skills. Calling it an RPG isn't technically wrong, since so much of the gameplay
is based on a roleplaying engine. Calling it a first-person shooter is also correct. It walks both lines.
new guy wrote:SYS SHOCK2= GAY
DEUS EX=TRANSGENDERED AND GAY
FO=MAGICALLY DELICIOUS
You're an idiot.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:41 pm
by Mismatch
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:42 pm
by Naked_Lunch
I like it when Baby Arm argues with himself.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:44 pm
by Mismatch
Naked_Lunch wrote:I like it when Baby Arm argues with himself.
yeah, I think its called the trinity or summit
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:36 pm
by VasikkA
Subhuman wrote:System Shock 2 is both an RPG and an FPS. Really. From the minute you start the game you choose your "class" (psychic, combat, or technical, with a bunch of sub-branches within each), you build stats throughout, you use specialized skills. Calling it an RPG isn't technically wrong, since so much of the gameplay is based on a roleplaying engine. Calling it a first-person shooter is also correct. It walks both lines.
Subhuman wrote:You're an idiot.
Talking to yourself?
You're basically saying that stats=roleplaying, which almost everyone here disputes if you'd read the thread. "Classes" only affect how the skill points are distributed in the beginning or in some games(D&D) bring additional restrictions. System Shock 2 is a pure FPS.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:51 pm
by POOPERSCOOPER
I agree with Spazmos and Walts definition of an RPG but if you look at what games actually follow that priniciple it's about three. Fallout, Fallout 2, and arcanum.
Those are practically the only games that would be considered true RPGs.
Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:51 pm
by Mismatch
POOPERSCOOPER wrote:I agree with Spazmos and Walts definition of an RPG but if you look at what games actually follow that priniciple it's about three. Fallout, Fallout 2, and arcanum.
Those are practically the only games that would be considered true RPGs.
They are, in essence, right.
However, when Spazmo[1] writes:
but because you're stuck with predefined characters and there's no meaningful choices
He is wrong.
Meaningful choices can, indeed, be made with predefined characters.
As I recall both fallout 1 and two had predefined characters with the additional choice of making your own.
And PS: T managed to provide the player with, at least, the illusion of meaningful choices. In PS:T[2], even though I doubt there were any choices apart from how to finish the game (talk etc etc..), as you rediscovered your past you got the feeling of you creating your own charcter and thus it gave you meaning. You and the predefined character grew togeter.
The more I think about it though, the more I tend to classify PS:T as a RPG/adventure game since youre solving riddles. More or less.
The fallout point is still valid though.
Having predefined characters makes it harder for a game to be a RPG, but if your storyline is non linear and provides the choices it can be done.
[1] <a href="
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/profi ... >Spazmo</a>
[2]<a href="
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape ... t">PS:T</a>
