Duck and Cover

Yeah, no BOS money. Doesn't make sense for the BOS to use money in its internal affairs. Soldiers in an army don't have to buy their guns, do they? Besides, the BOS are (and wish to remain) relatively small, whilst NCR are expansionist. There's no reason the BOS would force their currency on the rest of California even if they did use one.

I think it makes a certain amount of sense to use gold as currency, because its value is more tangible than that of a bottlecap. Gold is considered inherently valuable, so it doesn't need anything to back it, which suits the wasteland setting just fine.

The other alternative is to have a fixed currency within NCR's borders and a pure barter system outside them. This also makes sense, since NCR would be able to back an official currency themselves.

Armisael wrote:Soldiers in an army don't have to buy their guns, do they?

That depends on the army and the time period. For instance, during the Roman Republic troops were put in a certain class dependent on age and wealth. Each class had certain requirements and soldiers were expected to equip themselves out of their own pocket. (Interestingly enough the Republic of Rome thought it stupid to entrust the security of the state to the hands of the poor. Their reasoning was essentially that it was the property owners that benefitted from war, ergo they should be the ones fighting it.) Supply systems as they are today are actually a fairly recent innovation.

Then there's also the issue of having a character in a game belong to an organization that simply hands him/her equipment and/or access to sidekicks/companions. This has to be balanced somehow, or else you have the player going into the supply room before his/her first mission and requisitioning a Minigun and 5,000 rounds of 5mm JHP and he/she sweep the map clean by hitting everyone but whom he/she was actually aiming at. The last remaining target is simply bum-rushed by the entire party and that's that. End of mission/adventure.

Armisael wrote:I think it makes a certain amount of sense to use gold as currency, because its value is more tangible than that of a bottlecap. Gold is considered inherently valuable, so it doesn't need anything to back it, which suits the wasteland setting just fine.

Nothing has inherent value. Value is a metaphysical concept; it takes a human mind to imbue something w/value.

Gold has been valued for a considerable time due partially to its rarity, but also because of the things that people could do w/it. Note there are also areas where gold has never been used for trade because it was reserved for other things, and that the traditional medium of exchange in most societies has usually been silver before the adoptation of paper currency. What would you rather have after the bombs fell, an hundred pounds of gold; or an AK-112, 200 rounds of ammo, a first aid kit and some anti-rad meds?

Armisael wrote:The other alternative is to have a fixed currency within NCR's borders and a pure barter system outside them. This also makes sense, since NCR would be able to back an official currency themselves.

I like this idea. Currency could also be valued less-and-less as the farther away from NCR you get. This would reflect the fact that although a particular merchant lives outside of the NCR he/she may value the currency to some extent due to some trade opportunities offering themselves. This would be a better system than a simple, binary, yes/no option for whether or not they use currency or not.

There could also be other powers that issue currency, though. That would open up the multiple-currency-and-where-you-can-spend-it-can, though.

Cheers,

OTB

The BOS in FOT were a splinter group stranded in the Chicago area after an air crash, with limited personnel and equipment. Most of the recruits, including the player, were locals recruited to bolster the BOS ranks, the Elders probably considered them mercenaries. In such a case it makes sense for the BOS to introduce a reward system to encourage new recruits to turn in scavenged equipment. No doubt other services within the BOS bunkers and protectorates were available to purchase with the BOS Scrip. Since they weren't proper BOS personnel, dedicated to the advancement of the BOS beliefs, the QuarterMasters charged them for equipment which they might very well not see again as these new initiates couldn't be trusted not to desert. Probably Career BOS (survivors of the crash and decendants of the original Military Base personnel) didn't have to barter with the QuarterMasters.

Mercenaries would get paid for their work. And furthermore, towards the end, you reach Paladin ranks, which I don't think would ever be given to mercs.

I think that the locals probably struck a deal with the BOS, we will supply you with raw recruits if the BOS protect their towns and villages. That could be considered payment in a way. Towards the end of the game you're fighting for the survival of humanity and most likely by this point are considered full fledged members of the BOS.

Well, I'm aware of how the script system made sense in FO:T from a game balance perspective, but as we've seen in previous games, the BOS outfit their ranks the same as any modern-day army would. The supply system is particularly relevent to the BOS, who are practically an enclosed society in themselves. They don't usually have to worry about deserters and such.

As for the gold argument - certainly, gold doesn't have any inherent worth. Nothing does. That's why I said it was considered inherently valuable. And yes, it's situational; a hungry man might consider food more valuable than gold, or a thirsty man might consider water more valuable. But when all of a person's basic needs are fulfilled, their attention quickly turns to amassing wealth, and that's where gold comes in.

edit: Also, there could be other powers like NCR that would be able to maintain an official currency, and that would make a difference - but we haven't seen or heard of anything like that so far. To hell with currency, that'd be a major plot development.

Armisael wrote:Well, I'm aware of how the script system made sense in FO:T from a game balance perspective, but as we've seen in previous games, the BOS outfit their ranks the same as any modern-day army would. The supply system is particularly relevent to the BOS, who are practically an enclosed society in themselves. They don't usually have to worry about deserters and such.

There's no reason to believe that the entire BOS use the scrip system, as I said it's probably something implemented by the Eastern BOS since they are no longer an enclosed society. Besides even members of modern-day armies sometimes have to supply their own equipment out of their own pocket, Soldiers of the British Army are a very recent example.

Armisael wrote:As for the gold argument - certainly, gold doesn't have any inherent worth. Nothing does. That's why I said it was considered inherently valuable. And yes, it's situational; a hungry man might consider food more valuable than gold, or a thirsty man might consider water more valuable. But when all of a person's basic needs are fulfilled, their attention quickly turns to amassing wealth, and that's where gold comes in.

I'd disagree there, gold only has some intrinsic value since it can be worked into other items, it's durability and because it was virtually impossible to forge (as in fake). If a society doesn't have the means, need or desire to work gold then they aren't likely to value it. More likely bullets would be used as coinage, bullets have value in what they are intended for and if someone had the means to produce new shell casings etc, that would be as valuable if not more so than having a supply of pre-war ammunition.

And in fact, there was that smith in Adytum from FO1 that recased bullets for a living. I forget his name. It was the guy who upgraded your plasma rifle.

Requiem - you're talking practical value. The value of gold, gems, money and the like is monetary. Our society values things like golden rings, and not because they could be melted down to produce a useful thimble. What practical value do bottlecaps have? None, obviously. My argument is that gold is a more obvious choice for currency by virtue of the fact that it has a long history of use as currency, and the idea of gold = valuable is deeply rooted in human society. Moreso than bottlecaps, anyway.

To avoid confusion on the BOS script front, I should point out that I consider FO:T detached from Fallout canon. I doubt the eastern BOS from FO:T will make an appearance in any future BIS production.

Bottlecaps were backed by the rich Hub merchants, who saw the need for a standardized currency if there was to be any kind of trade.

You can find bottlecaps everywhere, and IMO if you're in a wasteland, there would be more junk lying around, and that junk could include bottle caps...

You could be rich pretty easy.

I would find some way to mark the bottle caps... perhaps put some symbol on them that tells you what caps are valid or invalid.

So to answer the question, NO I do not believe they should use Bottle Caps in Fallout 3.

Yes, but then caps would've only had value to towns that trade with the Water Merchants. And this was back in Fallout, remember - most of southern California is now under the jurisdiction of NCR, and water isn't as much of a problem.

In short, people just about everywhere can recognise the value of gold.

Armisael wrote:Requiem - you're talking practical value. The value of gold, gems, money and the like is monetary. Our society values things like golden rings, and not because they could be melted down to produce a useful thimble. What practical value do bottlecaps have? None, obviously. My argument is that gold is a more obvious choice for currency by virtue of the fact that it has a long history of use as currency, and the idea of gold = valuable is deeply rooted in human society. Moreso than bottlecaps, anyway.

Fallout is set in a radioactive wasteland where survival is a daily struggle, practical value is going to be far more important to the average denzien of the wastes than monetary value. Just because our society values certain things doesn't mean that the societies in the Post Apoc. are going to value them, certainly not out of any historical loyalty. Historically there were primitive societies that didn't value gold, and most of the townships and villages in Fallout can be considered primative. Bottle caps might not have practical value but they were backed by the Water Merchants of the Hub, they most likely chose bottlecaps for their rarity, their convienience (saved them having to mint coins or print money) and the fact that to the average Joe they would be impossible to forge. The NCR might have it's own monetary system in place to ease internal trade but that doesn't mean they started minting gold coins, more likely they would of had scrips like the 2 mining companies in Redding. Even if they did use gold coins, they wouldn't necessarily use them to trade outside NCR borders, for one thing not everyone would value the coins, as you said a hungry man would prefer food, and there are countries today that don't like their currency to leave their borders, you have to trade it in before you leave the country. Plus neither the NCR or Vault City are very strong influences on the area at the begining of FO2, sure the NCR Rangers are battling slavers and both communities have patrolling units but VC is barely defending themselves against raider attacks and there's a slaver compound sitting unmolested outside the gates to the NCR (until a goody player comes along that is). If and when Fallout 3 comes along, depending when it was set, I don't think that gold coins should be in use yet, unless it's set several hundred years after FO2 and life has started to settle down. If it's set within a few decades of FO2 then I don't think that civilisation will of reached a stage where trade between settlements is so common place that a universal monetary system will have been put back into place, and if there is a need for a monetary system then bullets will easily fit the bill, they have a practical use, they're fairly rare, not easy to fake and a lot more convienent than minting coins.

Armisael wrote:To avoid confusion on the BOS script front, I should point out that I consider FO:T detached from Fallout canon. I doubt the eastern BOS from FO:T will make an appearance in any future BIS production.

Since you agree why it made game balance sense in FOT, and there's no hint in the RPGs that I can think of to show the BOS using an internal currency then there's no more need to discuss them anymore agreed?

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Since you agree why it made game balance sense in FOT, and there's no hint in the RPGs that I can think of to show the BOS using an internal currency then there's no more need to discuss them anymore agreed?

Absolutely.

Something needs to be sorted out regarding the need for currency, though. To begin with, although Fallout takes place in a post-apocalyptic setting, survival is most certainly not the sort of daily struggle that you're making it out to be. If it were, there would be no major cities and no small industry; no one would care about drugs and alcohol when they're too busy caring about food, water and shelter. There'd be no real reason for Redding to mine gold, because it's certainly not a conventional resource. Society in Fallout has mostly progressed beyond basic survival. Given that, we should be able to agree that currency is is needed in the Fallout world for the same reason it's needed in real life - as a universal bartering commodity, so that even if someone doesn't have something you need, they can trade you currency which you can then trade for something that you do need.

If we can agree to that, maybe you can understand my argument as to why gold is more applicable as a universal currency than something completely arbitrary, like bottlecaps, or dollar bills. You're probably thinking, well, gold is arbitrary too - that's true, but it's been arbitrarily valuable for a lot longer than any state-enforced currency, so it's easier for people to accept its monetary worth. Dig? I don't want to get into the history of gold, suffice it to say that it's considered extremely valuable even today, despite the fact that it's not as useful as, say, a loaf of bread or a glass of water or a bullet.

Armisael wrote:Something needs to be sorted out regarding the need for currency, though. To begin with, although Fallout takes place in a post-apocalyptic setting, survival is most certainly not the sort of daily struggle that you're making it out to be. If it were, there would be no major cities and no small industry; no one would care about drugs and alcohol when they're too busy caring about food, water and shelter.

Ah but daily struggle doesn't just relate to food and water there are plenty of other dangers, raiders, slavers, player characters who shoot up whole towns for the sheer fun of it, in most of the settlements it will be a struggle to raise crops and brahmin and to keep those commodities safe, and people will still care about booze and drugs to escape from the hardships of their lives.

Armisael wrote:There'd be no real reason for Redding to mine gold, because it's certainly not a conventional resource. Society in Fallout has mostly progressed beyond basic survival. Given that, we should be able to agree that currency is is needed in the Fallout world for the same reason it's needed in real life - as a universal bartering commodity, so that even if someone doesn't have something you need, they can trade you currency which you can then trade for something that you do need.

For one thing I think it was a mistake to introduce gold coins and gold mining in FO2, it was a lazy way to introduce a monetary system compared to the thought behind the water based bottlecap system in Fallout. Commodities like guns, food, bullets and drugs (medical supplies) would be in great demand and I don't think that any of the societies seen in FO2 had reached the level where they were producing goods in such quantity for the excess to be traded. Regular trade between settlements would most likely be in Brahmin and other food products and water, just because the Hub fell in Fallout doesn't mean that clean water suddenly became plentiful. Such trading would be a fixed occurance, i.e. after the harvest, or calfings so the settlements would know when the caravans were due and what they would be wanting in payment so they would save up trade goods in anticipation of the arrival of the traders. Coinage would be more likely in use locally where people would go to the local store, in that case what would be used for coins would change from place to place.

Armisael wrote:If we can agree to that, maybe you can understand my argument as to why gold is more applicable as a universal currency than something completely arbitrary, like bottlecaps, or dollar bills. You're probably thinking, well, gold is arbitrary too - that's true, but it's been arbitrarily valuable for a lot longer than any state-enforced currency, so it's easier for people to accept its monetary worth. Dig? I don't want to get into the history of gold, suffice it to say that it's considered extremely valuable even today, despite the fact that it's not as useful as, say, a loaf of bread or a glass of water or a bullet.

Actually gold has a lot of industrial and high tech uses these days. I think if there was any society in existance in the wastes that was able to introduce a universal currency then it doesn't automatically mean they would use gold. To them gold might not appear valuable, the years after the war people outside of the vaults would of been more concerned with food etc and might have forgotten what gold was. The trouble with having gold coins in the Post Apoc. is the availability of gold, if no one cleaned out the mines in Redding and found the excavator chip there would be no gold coming from Redding. Jewellery and other pre-war gold items would be in short supply and the act of minting coins would be time consuming and would require additional security. Coins are a complex business, i.e the um... impressions on the edge of the coins was introduced to stop people shaving off slivers of gold, making the coins worth less than they appeared, plus gold can be melted easily and other metals added to produce more, rather worthless, coins. How many people would know about water displacement to prove if gold was pure? Most of that knowledge would of been lost. Much more likely that they would settle on something that could not be easily faked, more likely that paper money would be reinvented (the scrips) since not everyone had access to paper or the knowledge to make more. If like the water merchants someone was willing to say ten nuka cola bottle caps are worth one brahmin but only nuka cola bottle caps then they have an instant monetary system.

Flink wrote:Heh, Maybe we'll end up with a Post-Appoccalyptic stockmarket.

"The Brotherhood Dollar went down four points today, while the tribal gecko pelts rose six points. The result is that one tribal gecko pelt is now worth 6 BOS Dollars and 34 cents." :lol:

hahahhaha, bottlecaps or gold, or whatever. suits me fine. as long as they dont occupy space(remember the bottlecap treasure given by that ghoul in broken hills)!

Arbgun wrote:hahahhaha, bottlecaps or gold, or whatever. suits me fine. as long as they dont occupy space(remember the bottlecap treasure given by that ghoul in broken hills)!

Well the Fallout inventory system has always been based on weight and the bottlecaps in Fallout were weightless, but to have money weigh something adds another factor to the game, if you can't carry all the money you have means you either need to have a cache somewhere, or you convert the money into an expensive but lightweight item and hope that you don't lose out when you need to trade it in.

Those bottlecaps in FO2 were just an easter egg, and practically worthless, so you might as well just dump them straight away.

money shouldnt weigh anything... that makes it seem like one of those linear adventure games, where you only have like 8 slots for 8 items... bah.

in FO2, i would only spend money on people where i could steal i back
skeeter can upgrade, and then have the money stolen back, and in sanfran you can just buy things for money, and steal the money back... it is dastardly

I think having money weigh something, and therefore making the player have to think more about what they are carrying around, is better than how in FO2 if you amassed too much money traders would start charging extortionate prices for everything.

If you're going to have weightless money then you might as well have a seperate money pouch to the main inventory.

Armisael wrote:As for the gold argument - certainly, gold doesn't have any inherent worth. Nothing does. That's why I said it was considered inherently valuable.

Ah yes, I overlooked that one little word in your argument. Sorry about that, mea culpa.

OTB