Caliber changes, what do you guys think?

satanisgreat · Post by **satanisgreat** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:50 pm

I'm not a gun nut or anything, so it doesn't make any difference to me. There should be variants on ammo, yeah, but that doesn't mean the game should stick strictly to real life or anything. The ammo could be pencil erasers for all I care, as long as they leave big holes in people.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:28 pm

Doyle wrote:I'm not opposed to the idea of fictional rounds either, since that would make more sense than 10mm and .44.

That's what I mean - It's so far from the 50's already (hey, it's the new millenia) that what was common back then doesn't really have anything to do with the game universe. And it's really annoying shit trying to make realistic weapons and ammo in an rpg such as Fallout - two persons, with similar clothing might have totally different tolerance for pain. One might have 30 hp and the other one might have 350 hp. Now you shoot both of them with a burst from your k3wl FnFal - the other guy dies and the other one looses 190 hit points... Get my point?

Fuck realism, make everything fictional and you don't need to worry about gun-nuts complaining how "the deagle in game doesn't pack as much power as it would if they ever had shot with one".

thefiendishpuppy wrote: Kashluk, we kinda had that discussion in one of the other threads I've participated in. JE stated he wanted it to change, and the reason they have for having it like it was was having the Brotherhood of Steel make all these wonderful bullets and batteries.

In fact, I will find the thread for you.

This little clicky bit here should take you to one massive, rambling post where I threw up both sides of the argument, and then went off on a tangent for why both sides' reasons may work. Read it, if you feel like it.

Hey, thanks, I'll look up to it... And no you weren't "being evil", I'd say more like educating after I've read the stuff behind that link! It all makes a bit more sense now.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:36 pm

You're still not getting my point. I'm not talking about realism here, I'm talking about what makes sense in the atmosphere. 10mm isn't a fictional round, it was a real round that back in the 80s was supposed to be the ultimate law enforcement round.

However, back in the 50s America the ultimate combat handgun round was the big and slow .45 acp. When C. Taylor chose the guns and the ammo, he should have picked something that fit that attitude. Instead we have a round he picked from the perspective of a modern gun-nut, by his own admission.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 5:45 pm

Uh, well we're both all for the same conclusion, but for different reasons. I do get what you mean and things like 10 mm or Desert Eagle shouldn't exist in Fallout world because it's a parallel universe, true. I just meant that *I'm* for fictional ammo pretty much for the realism problems, I just expressed it badly (in a totally crappy way) in my previous post.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:57 pm

Doyle wrote:10mm isn't a fictional round, it was a real round that back in the 80s was supposed to be the ultimate law enforcement round.

Yup, one of many rounds that was highly touted when it was first designed, only to go nowhere. If C. Taylor was more of a gun-nut than a gun-geek -- and/or had done his homework -- then if anything we'd have seen the .41 Magnum in the 10mm's place. (This cartridge is still around today, but it's a small scale cult-round in certain corners of the handgun hunting and sillouhette shooting community.) IIRC it was invented in the early '60s, but I think the title is much more appropriate w/that whole '50s red-blooded, hairy-chested machismo that suits the FO setting much better than the far more cosmopolitan attitudes of the '80s.

Kashluk, one thing about hit points: the vast majority of them don't actually represent physical damage capacity. The ca. 30 hp you start off with is the vast majority of your character's physical damage capacity. The rest of the hp your character gains are metaphysical, such as superior skill at dodging attacks, luck, etc. Basically, the character w/30 hp who has takes a wound for 15 points probably just took a nice gut wound that has put him very much closer to being killed, while a character w/108 hp who takes an identical wound has managed to dodge at the last instant and was only grazed by the bullet, or skinned his knee on a rock instead.

Cheers,

OTB

thefiendishpuppy · Post by **thefiendishpuppy** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:36 am

Thanks, Kashluk! I feel better for that... I wasn't sure if that was a bit much, saying it like that.

Also, the thing with the pain thresholds - It's more likely to be a damage resistance (ie a percentage reduction, like armour) and work the same way. Someone who takes a shot to the arm, with your kickass gun, and takes a raw damage of 35 hitpoints. (Crit, not armour piercing.)

Our wimpy and wussy no-pain-threshold geek - lets call him thefiendishpuppy, for argument's sake - has no DR for this, and collapses in a heap. Unless you have the Bloody Mess trait, in which case his lower body explodes, spilling entrails everywhere, and his arm falls off.

Now, the big strong hench guy with mucho DR, let's call that one Kashluk for argument's sake - he takes the same shot, and because he's so big and hench and has serious pain thresholds, he only takes half as much damage, and then gets ready to kick the sorry ass of the guy who just did that. He also sneers at thefiendishpuppy's pasty white weak ass for collapsing. Or getting blown into pieces.

Does that make some more sense? That a difference in the DR - or DR and DT - would make more sense for pain thresholds than more HP? I agree, some element of it is in the HP, but DR/DT just seem more suited to this somehow.

Sorry if you're offended by the above Kashluk, I've taken the liberty of assuming you're male from your avatar, and used you in that way in my post.

Again, OTB has possibly the best description of this.

OnTheBounce wrote:Kashluk, one thing about hit points: the vast majority of them don't actually represent physical damage capacity. The ca. 30 hp you start off with is the vast majority of your character's physical damage capacity. The rest of the hp your character gains are metaphysical, such as superior skill at dodging attacks, luck, etc. Basically, the character w/30 hp who has takes a wound for 15 points probably just took a nice gut wound that has put him very much closer to being killed, while a character w/108 hp who takes an identical wound has managed to dodge at the last instant and was only grazed by the bullet, or skinned his knee on a rock instead.

This, with the problem of having an engine that doesn't reflect damages on their characters graphically, is metagame imagination and reasoning to justify the rules and occurences. (If I've got OTB's point right.) If you don't understand that, metagaming is reasoning outside the game about something in the game. For example... walking down a long thin corridor, though your character has no idea at all whether there are traps or not, you have a suspicion there are. That's metagame thinking. Your character is unaware, but you are.

Does that help at all?

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:06 am

Damn, OTB... I never really thought of it that way. I guess playing Fallout takes a bit more imagination than I thought it would!

And no fiendishpuppy, I'm not offended, stop worrying about that. If you think you're "evil" you should see the rest of the board.

But back to the original topic - who's with me about the fictional rounds?

thefiendishpuppy · Post by **thefiendishpuppy** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:53 pm

Kashluk wrote: But back to the original topic - who's with me about the fictional rounds?

I did mention some ways back that it didn't matter - whether real, imaginary, or the reality-based imaginary, it really doesn't make that much difference to me. So long as it makes sense, I don't give a damn whether the ammunition is Iguana Bob, peanuts or Jimmy Hats.

RAR, It's SAFE-SEX-MAN! Here he comes (teehee) with his Condom Gun to ensure all you Post-Nuclear Role Playing Gamers have safe sex whilst playing!

Hey, it's possible. But would be funny for all of a few seconds. So no, I don't want Jimmy Hats as ammunition, but anything else would be just peachy.

Let me just go load my Iguana Bob Launcher...

Also, Kashluk, I tend to be paranoid about such things, and thus in an attempt to avoid looking like an asshat, I apologise before any offence is taken, which hopefully means I won't be bashed so bad. However, I know this makes me look like an asshat; that's just the way I am. At least that way I look like a bumbling, retarded asshat instead of a hostile, malicious one... it's slightly better, IMHO

Anyway: In summary, I don't mind which is used, real imaginary or what, so long as Safe Sex Man doesn't come along and shoot me with a Jimmy Hat. I am also a friendly asshat.

Don'cha just love posts like this?

Nightkin244 · Post by **Nightkin244** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:51 am

whoa! if the Sixties never came than the vault dweller never had Mary Jane! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!one11!1!!!!1!1!eleven!!!!1!!11!

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:12 am

I think there should be more guns and ammunition, both real and made up, and if the gun nuts bitch, fuck 'em, drive away, I'm a gun nut too but I understand it's just a game and they do change things for the sake of gameplay. Sure in reality the Desert Eagle is a shitty combat weapon, but in a game it's fucking badass. They're not even real gun nuts who are bitching, they're more like gun shop commandos, they "know" a ton about a certain tiny set of firearms, but when it comes down to important details, like in Fallout 2 with the Pancor Jackhamer, they only made a few of them, way fewer than you see in Fallout 2. The HK CAWS was also only experemental and used special 12 guage shells with a brass jacket instead of the nylon or plastic jacket. I seem to be the only one around who points out that in Medal of Honor the shotgun is using plastic shells when at the time they didn't have plastic shells, they had either cardboard tubes of full metal tubes. Hell they're not even gun shopmandos, for you to be one of those you have to hang out in a gun shop, these guys are more like the guys that pick up Soldier of Fortune and belive it like hicks belive Weekly World News or the National Enquirer. Like I said, fuck 'em, they're trolls who come to stir up trouble.

Killa-Killa · Post by **Killa-Killa** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:52 am

Agreed.

Garf · Post by **Garf** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:24 am

satanisgreat wrote:I'm not a gun nut or anything, so it doesn't make any difference to me. There should be variants on ammo, yeah, but that doesn't mean the game should stick strictly to real life or anything. The ammo could be pencil erasers for all I care, as long as they leave big holes in people.

Well, I'm a gun-nut.. but I don't really care either, hehe. 9 or 10, eitherway.

I would like to kill some raiders with an 8mm from a Mauser though.

Preferably a k98.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:48 pm

As long as there isn't ammo like "pistol ammo"
or there isn't ammo like 9mm from FO that only had like 1 gun. I'm fine with it. I still think that 10mm is way cooler than 9mm, not as real bullets, but as it not being truely widespread (10mm does exist, but not everyone has it)

Carib · Post by **Carib** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:39 pm

I don't really care, though, I kind of like things the way they were.

First Force · Post by **First Force** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:50 am

wheres hammer, this thread is really his expertise.

btw i dont think it really matters

requiem_for_a_starfury · Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:52 am

They should stick with the generic weapons and generic ammo, but ship the game with an easy to use editor that'll allow people to change the inventory image of the weapons and the name/stats etc so that those that care can create their favorite weapons to use in the game.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:36 am

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:...ship the game with an easy to use editor...

Word on the IPLY forums was that VB/FO3 will not be mod-friendly.

Check the news forum, I'm sure they posted something on it when the item was spotted.

OTB

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:00 am

Generic ammo is crap, that means that there would be pistol ammo, rifle ammo, shotgun ammo and so on without any interesting names or whatever, you'll walk up to a shelf to swipe someone's shit and there will be some Beer, Mentats and Pistol Ammo. Now how gay does that sound? I like it better when it goes,"Beer, Mentats and 10mm FMJ." It just sounds better and makes it a tad more realistic because you could then have a gun that's like a pistol or rifle but has a super rare ammunition, couldn't do that with Pistol Ammo. It opens up a game to more possibilities, might as well just make it so there's only one type of weapon for each catagory, including melee.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:37 am

Personally I'de like to see just generic weapons with a variety of ammo. There might be slight differances between two differant pistols of the same calibur, but for the most part, you get the same sort of damage. Personally, I think .45 Auto, 9mm, and such makes more sense considering that most of the weapons were probably based off of popular weapons of the 50's.

Also, I'de like to see more revolvers in Fallout. Since they have a rugged and simple design, they'de be easier to maintain and would probably be easier to make.

The reason why I don't like the idea of generic caliburs is simply that not all caliburs for a pistol have the same effect. I remember reading in a journal that Police officers hate having to use .22 LR for anything because its hard to stop anyone. They stated that "The only chance you have of immediately stopping someone would be a very precise shot to the head." Whereas they said that a .45 had enough stopping power to stop all but the most determined attackers. I suppose you could say its the differance of stabbing someone with a pen knife and a Bowie knife. You'll hurt the guy no matter what, but you'll hurt them much more with the Bowie knife.

Also, since it was partly suggested that the generic ammo would be put into affect to stop "gun-nuts" from complaining that they'de complain more that any sort of alternative to their favorite gun was taken away?

On a personal note.....I'de kinda like to name my own gun in the game. Like etch it into the side. That way gun nuts can call their guns whatever they like. I mean I'm guessing that most people have since forgotten or cared about what gun factory a gun has come from within the wasteland. For those gamers that think they do ((like they were smart enough to read what was already etched in)), they can just name it whatever they like.

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:24 am

What did I say about the gun nuts? Fuck 'em, drive away, they're not really gun nuts, they're mostly cocks who've never fired any gun other than an airgun and get all their info from playing Counter Strike. People like my friend, he's only shot a shotgun a few times but considers himself somekind of weapons expert and is obsessed with weapon realism in games, like him, those people have no room to talk about realism.

I liked the mixture of real guns and made up guns, and I'd like to see more of both just for the options, and of course the magazine capacity, that can make or break a fight right there. I would also like to see more revolvers and other firearms that last a long time with minimal maintenance and high accuracy, like bolt actions, lever actions, and maybe some breach loading rifles, maybe a fancy quest gun or two like a rare .458 magnum side-by-side safari rifle or another homemade gun like the .223 Pistol, I really hated how there were tons of those in Fallout 2, there should have been just the one that you got with some of the Vault Dweller's things, but it was broken so you would have had to take it to be repaired, but that's not the issue here.

I don't know what cops were using .22's or why they were talking about using them, that's just crazy talk.

Duck and Cover

Caliber changes, what do you guys think?

What do you think about the caliber changes?