Duck and Cover

That really was an awful cover.

I only have one thing left to say to you...

... that's because you're gayer than a torch-juggling Richard Simmons on a unicycle.

VasikkA wrote:System Shock 2 is a pure FPS.

Now YOU are babbling.

The fact that SS2 has stats doesn't make it and RPG, true. But the fact that it has stats puts it slightly above the group of general FPS'. Because if you add RPG elements to something, it becomes superior. For example, Oblivion as a soil erosion simulator would be too boring, so Beth added RPG elements to it.

If I had to classify "RPGness" of SS2/Deus Ex, it would be action RPG, because stats are few and all are combat-oriented, and gameplay depends on stats as much as on player skill.

SS2 didnt play like your standard FPS and you could do alot of cool shit when it came to designing your character. It was alot deeper than Deus Ex, which Spector has even admitted is more of 'smoke and mirrors' than actual RPG stat stuff.

Deus Ex, on the other hand, had many NPC interactions, and choices in the storyline WITH CONSEQUENCES OMG

Koki wrote:But the fact that it has stats puts it slightly above the group of general FPS'. Because if you add RPG elements to something, it becomes superior.

Again, stats don't make a game an RPG. Call them RPG elements, or whatever you like, but it still isn't roleplaying. It's true that skills affect the outcome to some extent, but in an RPG, the outcome is fully determined by the character's attributes. In addition to the hazy connection between stats and RPG combat, the viewpoint and time-flow in SS2 and Deus Ex moves the combat further away from RPGs.

And I'm only talking about combat. Roleplaying is so much more than combat.

If I had to classify "RPGness" of SS2/Deus Ex, it would be action RPG, because stats are few and all are combat-oriented, and gameplay depends on stats as much as on player skill.

If an FPS has skills that partially affect the outcome, does it make it a 1/10 of an RPG or just a better-than-average FPS?

I don't know about you, but I'd say the latter. Calling it an action RPG because of a poorly implemented RPG combat would be an overstatement.

I won't continue to argue with you, because we agree with each other

You're no fun, Koki.

SS2 isn't just a shooter "with stats", though. It's a complete roleplaying system from the ground up. It's not necessarily the deepest RPG out there, but it's still an RPG.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. And fuck Deus Ex, why are we even talking about it?

choices in the storyline WITH CONSEQUENCES OMG

That don't matter at all until you choose one of three options at the end of the game

Subhuman, SS2 isn't an RPG. It's an FPS with rpg elements. Daikatana had stats and shit too, does that make it an RPG?

Shut up.

SS2 is more of a hybrid of FPS and RPG. What really elevates it to RPG is the character system. Choice and consequence is one thing, but I think an extension of that is the 'opportunity cost' of choices. When you choose to take a certain direction you close the door on other opportunities. In SS2 you can be a good tech, a good psycher or a good soldier - you can't choose to be good in all three (you have the freedom to, but if you generalize instead of specialize you will suck in all three disciplines). Arcanum is another good example of a game that was designed to reward the specialist and punish the generalist. You can't have your cake and eat it too in SS2 and Arcanum - but this leaves the door wide open for replaying different characters.

The other side of the spectrum are games like TES that pander to the munchkins.

Granted, SS2 did have some fairly extensive character customization options, and that was really cool, but, because I am a goddamn parrot, stats do not an RPG make. Yeah, you could choose to be a tech navy guy or just wave around a big gun or wish on a star that your enemies would freeze to death and stuff. But that didn't change that you had to escape medlab and track down Polito and destroy the Many and fight SHODAN and so on. The game's plot was very linear. Therefore, it can't really be very much of an RPG.

So a game has to have a non-linear plot to be an RPG now? You guys are REDEFINING RPGS with every post and I am blown away with power.

Linearity isn't a problem if the character is given the choices and tools finish the task(s) in a manner that suits the player, even if the tasks feel definite or consecutive. It's not what you do, but how you do it. There are many linear RPG campaigns out there and I rather prefer a non-linear story, too. The plot structure in Fallout was ingenious, becuase the player only had a clear starting point and an ending point, which gave a great illusion of freedom in between. Oblivion is very non-linear in this sense too, which is definitely a merit.

Final Fantasy games are linear. Are they not RPGs?

Just admit it, y'all don't want to consider the idea that an FPS could also be an RPG at the same time, because RPGs are to be worshipped by the gaming cognoscenti and FPSs are for the unwashed graphics-whoring masses.

Subhuman wrote:Final Fantasy games are linear. Are they not RPGs?

That's waponese, it doesn't count.

Just admit it, y'all don't want to consider the idea that an FPS could also be an RPG at the same time, because RPGs are to be worshipped by the gaming cognoscenti and FPSs are for the unwashed graphics-whoring masses.

It not that they couldn't be RPGs, but that every first-person 'RPG' released so far has proved to be somewhat lacking compared to their isometric cousins when it comes to incorporating RPG rules. This is mainly because of the action-heavy nature of first-person games and the continuous time flow. I'm not saying Deus Ex or System Shocks aren't good games, but they sure as hell aren't RPGs.

VasikkA wrote:I'm not saying Deus Ex or System Shocks aren't good games, but they sure as hell aren't RPGs.

Because they have a lot of action and operate in real-time? What does that have to do with the gameplay engine itself, which most certainly incorporates RPG rules? This isn't about SS2 being a "true" RPG or not, it's about the old breed of RPGs versus the new. It's like comparing apples and oranges - they're different, but they're both fruit. You seem to prefer less action in your RPGs.

I didn't ask that, I asked "What do you think defines an rpg," to which the common concensus seems to be a combination of both me and Spazmo's opinion.

You're somehow changing what I asked into "If it contains some of the elements of an rpg then it's automatically in that category!" If we follow your definition, then anything with any sort of stats is considered an RPG so long as they somehow effect gameplay which makes the term too broad. Hey guess what! Not only am I playing Madden Football, but I'm roleplaying!!! Grand Theft Auto: SA? Roleplaying game. The idea is to make a definition of what a roleplaying game is, not that if you include afew elements that it makes a game a roleplaying game.

It's not just "a few elements" - it's the entire game. From the ground up, SS2 uses a roleplaying system. I keep saying this and people keep bringing up Grand Theft Auto. Not every game that has stats is an RPG, I agree. I didn't say that. I said that SS2 is an RPG, not just a shooter with stats. I think it fits the established definition of a roleplaying game.

Like baby arm said, you guys keep bending the rules about what an RPG is to fit around the accepted isometric, turn-based norm.

"An RPG can't be first-person."
"But System Shock 2!"
"SS2 is just a shooter with stats."
"No, it's a shooter and an RPG."
"No, it's too linear to be an RPG."
"But Final Fantasy is linear."
"SHOOTER WITH STATS LA LA LA LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU"

Come on.

If you read earlier, Spazmo spoke about Final Fantasy.