That Was A Quick Run

[EvoG]

As an avid RPG fan I'm looking forward to it because I like a rich world and the outlook of encountering my own NPCs in it.

You're not going to find more avid RPG fan's than here or codex...sorry. These fools here even roleplay a FO pnp through a FORUM for crying out loud(though I was intrigued. ). So you're talking to avid RpG'ers.

The other thing Bobbin...graphics aside, there isn't one IOTA of information to lead us to believe that this game is even REMOTELY a 'rich world'. All they offered us was an absolutely terribly written backstory and said there will be 1000 npc's each that live by their day/night cycle and (I love this) "Combat so exciting you can skip it!".

Do you HONESTLY think they're gonna craft these 'rich', unique personalities and schedules for ALL ONE THOUSAND npc's?! Nope...this is going to be generated shit bro. They will be just as plastic as the miserable npc's in morrowind who spouted the exact same dialogue snippets from city to city. From a developement point of view it would take just a tremendous amount of resources to make each unique.

See, the thing is, WE here are all gamers, yet we're not impressed. We have no problems when games rock, and despite this being a FO fansite, we do talk about other games...its just natural being gamers. Do we bash EVERY game that passes through here? Hardly. So my question is, what do YOU see that absolutely NONE of us do? Hell Saint plays the ugliest games on earth(but they are deep), I get to hear about them and then have to dodge around having to DL the demos...and HE doesn't like The Fall. The icing on the cake was Happy-Fun-Time-Marketing/Public-Relations-Guru Carsten coming around here and mixing it up.

So again, what the heck do you see that no one here does?

Cheers

[atoga]

The only difference between Bobbin and myself and (many of) the rest of you is that we are at least willing to wait and find out before mouthing off.

Remember FOBOS? That was clearly shitty from the beginning - considering the details we gleaned from all the media IPLY released - and yet people defended it anyway. Bad example, maybe, but the point is that the existing facts - advertising and similar exaggerated press releases not considered - make it look bad, which has already been well established here. So I don't know why you're arguing for a game which has had its shittiness clearly defined. Why don't you go find something that looks good to wait for?

As for what Slave said about a game's setting, yeah, that's pretty much true. A game's setting might contain interesting seeds for a good plot or gameplay experience or whatever - most post-apoc games have a pretty good reputatation for those things - but when you just look at a game's setting standing on itself it's irrelevant.

Do you HONESTLY think they're gonna craft these 'rich', unique personalities and schedules for ALL ONE THOUSAND npc's?!

It's been done. Look at Torment. However, Torment was partly marketed on the strength of its story - "One million words of wacky dialogue!" or something similar - so it was made clear that interesting characterization was its forte. Haven't heard anything like that from The Fall, though, so it ain't gonna happen there.

[EvoG]

Not sure I understand Atoga...where was this done in PS:T? There weren't thousands of npc's living by their day/night schedule. There weren't even a hundred (maybe...) and they certainly didn't go about some daily business with or without the PC.

Cheers

[atoga]

I thought you were going on about NPC depth - levels of dialogue, interesting items and stats on them, and what-have-you. They had unique personalities, but yeah, there was an absence of any schedules beyond really simple ones. I haven't seen any detail like that in any CRPG; if you want that, I'd suggest you go play some PNP.

[EvoG]

I thought you were going on about NPC depth - levels of dialogue, interesting items and stats on them, and what-have-you. They had unique personalities, but yeah, there was an absence of any schedules beyond really simple ones. I haven't seen any detail like that in any CRPG; if you want that, I'd suggest you go play some PNP.

Erm, I don't want that...thats what The Fall claims bro. I was disputing Bobbin's claim of 'rich world'.

Thanks tho.

Cheers

[Tayl]

Do you HONESTLY think they're gonna craft these 'rich', unique personalities and schedules for ALL ONE THOUSAND npc's?! Nope...this is going to be generated shit bro. They will be just as plastic as the miserable npc's in morrowind who spouted the exact same dialogue snippets from city to city. From a developement point of view it would take just a tremendous amount of resources to make each unique.

Just want to say that this is exactly what they have claim to have done. Most of the development time apparently has been spent doing all of the NPCs. Of course, they could just be lying out of their asses, but....they say that's why it has taken as much time as it has to get the game done. Because of the extra development time needed to do the NPCs. Whether or not they are telling the truth remains to be seen.

[Saint_Proverbius]

The only difference between Bobbin and myself and (many of) the rest of you is that we are at least willing to wait and find out before mouthing off.

The last time I heard this argument was from the people who wanted to give Fallout Enforcer a chance.

[Anthony]

Something of importance to remember is that not ALL NPCs had to be hand tailored by them. there are 8 pages, 105 posts under the design your own NPC section of The Fall's forum. Granted, half could be trash or irrelivent, I'll leave the bullshitting about that to the rest of you, because it'd be foolish to think you won't. However, inspiration can come from there. And from other posts, inspiration may come from there. Put it into the basic formula and you've got another charicter. Manipulations here and there, I'm sure we'll see repeats, but to beat the most recent competition can't be too hard. And, as is my understanding, many people here play computer games, new and old, so an advance in this section should be appreciated by those interested in it. If you're not, or not interested in that aspect of the game or the game at all, I supose you've got no purpose to argue other than to bitch. I'll toss the ball t'you now.

[EvoG]

Well if you think all it takes is 8 pages(and 105 posts) to create a thousand diverse npc's, each with their own day/night schedule, relevent player character interaction and dialogue, then what can I say. I mean if all they do is stand there and wait, then you click on one and he spews forth his lifestory and thats it, then sure, no problem. But if they're to pathfind around the gameworld, interact with the environment and do different activities and interact with the player beyond a billboard, you know, things that make them 'interesting', well maybe you're a bit naive, which is fair(not an insult)...its just that that shit isn't trivial. Go play morrowind to see and example. Better yet, go play games by people who 'really know what they're doing' and see examples of how difficult it is to make npc's interesting : (Fallout, Arcanum, PS:T, Ultima Series before U8 ).

Though, the attitude you displayed in your post tells me you don't really care to hear all this so take it for what its worth.

Cheers

[Anthony]

Well if you think all it takes is 8 pages(and 105 posts) to create a thousand diverse npc's, each with their own day/night schedule, relevent player character interaction and dialogue, then what can I say. I mean if all they do is stand there and wait, then you click on one and he spews forth his lifestory and thats it, then sure, no problem. But if they're to pathfind around the gameworld, interact with the environment and do different activities and interact with the player beyond a billboard, you know, things that make them 'interesting', well maybe you're a bit naive, which is fair(not an insult)...its just that that shit isn't trivial. Go play morrowind to see and example. Better yet, go play games by people who 'really know what they're doing' and see examples of how difficult it is to make npc's interesting : (Fallout, Arcanum, PS:T, Ultima Series before U8 ).
Though, the attitude you displayed in your post tells me you don't really care to hear all this so take it for what its worth.
Cheers

no, you hold a valid point there. No, I was not implying that is ALL it takes, but it is just as naive to think that that would not help in the least. Small variations, as I said, and repeats are bound to be, but it's still more intercate than many systems. and in Fallout, there were mass amounts of generic models such as the jet heads, prostitutes, pimps, citizens of towns.. though, the charicters of it were a great creation, and I expect some improvements upon it to be seen in this game. Perhaps nothing so spectacular as the customized population of New York to respond like a genuine New Yorker and everyone giving their life story, because that would be unrealistic even by todays standards; you can hope at best to get a finger in responce. I do, however, expect to see something a little more special than Morrowind, and with some improvements over Fallout.

PS: I don't really have a problem with posts when they come such as your's, with an example given of why I'm incorrect and inteligent commentary given. However, when I get a responce that is about 12 words long and at least two are a variation of "Fuck", I really won't give a "fuck".

[EvoG]

no, you hold a valid point there. No, I was not implying that is ALL it takes, but it is just as naive to think that that would not help in the least. Small variations, as I said, and repeats are bound to be, but it's still more intercate than many systems. and in Fallout, there were mass amounts of generic models such as the jet heads, prostitutes, pimps, citizens of towns.. though, the charicters of it were a great creation, and I expect some improvements upon it to be seen in this game. Perhaps nothing so spectacular as the customized population of New York to respond like a genuine New Yorker and everyone giving their life story, because that would be unrealistic even by todays standards; you can hope at best to get a finger in responce. I do, however, expect to see something a little more special than Morrowind, and with some improvements over Fallout.

Well see that IS my point reinforced....why do you think they were limited to mild variations? On an artistic level, I can guarantee you The Fall ( from what we've seen ) is going to have a mild level of variation, to the point of just swapping out hair, clothes and accessories. But, thats not entirely all of it...I wouldn't care if they all looked alike if they instead all did 'different' stuff to eachother. This isn't going to happen. At best you'll see one maybe chopping wood, or one guarding a post. But they won't all have special schedules and interfaces that'll make them interesting. Its just not going to happen. I know this from both gamer and professional experience. MAYBE 100 unique peeps....certainly not a thousand that you're going to be the least bit interested in.

Cheers

[DarkUnderlord]

there are 8 pages, 105 posts under the design your own NPC section of The Fall's forum.

Next time, if you want us to go there, linkage to the thread would be nice?

Granted, half could be trash or irrelivent, I'll leave the bullshitting about that to the rest of you, because it'd be foolish to think you won't. However, inspiration can come from there. And from other posts, inspiration may come from there. Put it into the basic formula and you've got another charicter.

Oh my poor dear Anthony. Did we perhaps miss what Carsten "Oops, we're fucked now 'cause we've lost Damien" Strehse said in that thread?

The "second comment" is given when you talk to a SNPC twice during one task. This sentence should make it really obvious to the player that this SNPC has not much more to say for the next time. This comment also should fit to all tasks of the SNPC, so it should be a very generic sentence.

Yup, that sure sounds like fun. A world of a 100 thousand people all doing... stuff I can't do anything about. Oh wait, I can watch two people go off into the forest and stand looking at each other for 4 hours on a date!
INTARAKTIVITEEE TO TEH MAX!!1!

Manipulations here and there, I'm sure we'll see repeats, but to beat the most recent competition can't be too hard. And, as is my understanding, many people here play computer games, new and old, so an advance in this section should be appreciated by those interested in it. If you're not, or not interested in that aspect of the game or the game at all, I supose you've got no purpose to argue other than to bitch. I'll toss the ball t'you now.

Oh wait, yes, my bad, Carsten and Co are getting inspiration from these.

"John the Nobody - His Dialogue" (By Carsten himself)
It's breakfast time. Sorry, but for you is nothing left.
The best time of day for hunting is in the morning.
I shot a raven. That's good meat!
Hacking wood is a good and respectable work.
We always have enough to eat, because we work hard.
Anyhow, every day is like the one before.

Inspiration for what exactly? I'd have to guess that by now, they've made the main plot. If they haven't, that's their bad. That means any of these characters are miscellaneous filler crap. They're not worthy of great things. But if they truly are, God forbid Carsten and Co tried to make something of them.

Sorry Anthony, but for you is nothing left. But anyhow, every day is like the one before.

Incidentally, the first two non-Silver-Style characters:

Peter the tanner.
These rat pies sure are good! But nothing when compared to Moms!
Nothing like the smell of freshly tanned leather!
I sold 5 pelts(furs/skins) today!
I must hunt if I wish to feed my family.
We always have enough to eat, because I work hard.
Life sure is repetitive in the wasteland...

Victor the father
It’s time for me and my Brian to go out huntin’!
He never hits anything. C’mon, try harder!
If you want something done, you’ll have to do it yourself.
This’ll be tasty!
He’ll never learn how to hunt.
What’s to come of him when I’m gone?
Same thing everyday

Go the hunters!!

[Anthony]

Ahh, I get your point now, Evog. Yes, that's very true; there are only so many pheasable combinations of charicters, very true. But I expect we'll see some more unique people than we have in previous games as well. I supose that's why they overshoot predictions; so when people get arguing, the middle ground reached is still somewhat above par, haha.

@DarkUnderlord: Damien's a good man, but they're hardly fucked without him. They were expecting he may leave soon for a job closer to home, as he did going to EA for the new LOtR game. Big opportunity for him, and they knew he may get one. But the game's getting closer to being done, so we'll see how things come out. As the arguement has been progressing, and you'd know if you were reading, we've already established you won't interact with everyone on an indepth level. If you want to try that, you should get off your ass and go out into that thing they call "sunlight".

Huh, Tayl must have made a good point.. no one's argued with him yet.

[Raymondo]

But I expect we'll see some more unique people than we have in previous games as well.

I see you haven't played JA yet, maybe you should then think about what you just said.

[Anthony]

Since I "obviously" haven't played the game, but you're right anyway, what would you have me think about? *concentrates on his telepathic abilities to forge knowledge* Hehe, tell me about the game, though. Not buying a new game just to argue online.

[Raymondo]

Its not new you can download it off the internet.

Try HotU

[Anthony]

Ahh, therein is where the differences lay. What I am expecting to see in The Fall is an environment not unlike Fallout 1 and 2, where the towns were loaded with people, unlike the Neverwinter series' where there are not so many people, but they all speak at least somewhat different lines. Guards had standardized speech for the most part, and some people only had one line. That works for a Neverwinter game, as there aren't as many people really, but with the Fallout 2 situation with those masses, it would be kinda' inconsievable, eh?

[SDMVersion3]

Ahh, therein is where the differences lay. What I am expecting to see in The Fall is an environment not unlike Fallout 1 and 2, where the towns were loaded with people, unlike the Neverwinter series' where there are not so many people, but they all speak at least somewhat different lines. Guards had standardized speech for the most part, and some people only had one line. That works for a Neverwinter game, as there aren't as many people really, but with the Fallout 2 situation with those masses, it would be kinda' inconsievable, eh?

Fallout characters generally had text in accordance to their town. Citizens and guards all spoke the same lines with a few unique NPCs here or there. For a good example of this, head to Vault City or NCR. Of course, you do get unique characters, mostly however, these are shopkeepers or pivotal story characters.

[Rosh]

Oh, and by the way, Arcanum did indeed implement TB, it just wasn't the default option.

Damn, you are right, I even played it that way. I wonder what would happen if TF implemented that option...

Then you're an idiot as you didn't see what caused the majority of problems for Arcanum's balancing and character system. Just like X-COM Apocalypse, just like FOT, just like with many other games that do the same thing.

Wait...Bobbin...Bobbin...oh, yeah! You're that total dumbfuck who thought that the Pay-Pal idea that Sean Reynolds posted about was the best hope for Fallout 3.

You're ARE an idiot!

Thanks for posting, but when we need the misguided and often stupid ramblings of some German kid, we'll let you know. Until then, keep the naive stupidity to yourself.

[Phias]

Ok, I think Bobbin needs to find some way(if it is possible) to prove to us that the game will not suck.

1.Is the setting interesting and well-designed?
2.Do the screenshots catch your eye?
3.Is the concept new or refreshing?
4.What does this game offer me that no other game does?

I doubt you can answer these questions, Bobbie, but if you feel brave, go ahead.
--
It's usually the concept that has credit, but the execution of the concept that kills the product. It happens much too often, and by the looks of it, will continue for a long time
.