9/11 Pentagon Conspiracy

[Kashluk]

While we're talking about snipers, how many of you know who was the best sharpshooter of all time?

[xbow]

Kashluk

For sheer Volume of kills that would be none other than the hero of The Soviet UnionVassily Zaitsev with perhaps 1000 kills or more.

It must be remembered however that Hathcock and Zaitsev fought very different wars. Zaitsev fought on a target rich urbanized battlefield(Stalingrad) while Hathcock fought in the less target rich remote jungles of South East Asia.

Hathcock once stalked an NVA general for over a hundred miles through the jungle and then made a two day stealth approach over open terrain past many patrols that had guard dogs to his command center deep inside North Vietnam. He put a bullet in the guys brain and escaped.

Zaitsev once racked up thirty Kills including eight German officers with a series of perfect head shots in two hours without being detected or fired upon by the Germans.

Those two guys are probably tossing back horns full of strong ale in Valhalla together as we speak .

Note: The Movie 'Enemy At The Gates' sucked! It didn't even touch on the magnitude of Zaitsev's skill or commitment to duty.

Note: Zaitzev personally claims just 242 confirmed kills but it is the opinion of many (Russian Soldiers) that he may have whacked 4 or five times that number during the great patriotic war.

[Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD]

Why do you assholes feel the need to scour the internet for answers instead of just admitting you have no clue and move on.

[Retlaw83]

Why do you assholes feel the need to scour the internet for answers instead of just admitting you have no clue and move on.

Because it betters oneself to learn the answers to such things, you fuckstick.

[xbow]

Well said Retlaw83

‘Fuckstick’ what a perfect description of mandalorian.

Zaitsev is pretty famous in military circles but I did have to search the internet to find out exactly how many confirmed kills he had. The Internet is great, instant answers and statistics.

Mandalorian FaLLouT FuksTik's question is absolutely viable from his perspective, he knows nothing and has no desire to change that situation. There is no doubt that he would need to search the internet to find out about anything not directly related to cock geometry, on that subject he is no doubt an expert.

[Kashluk]

'Bout those snipers and their confirmed kills (ww2)... some kind of a top 5 I've managed to gather from the stuff I found on the internet.

#5 Matthias Hetzenauer (germany) - 345
#4 Erwin Konig (germany)- 400+
#3 Ilyin Vasili Zaitsev (ussr) - 400+
#2 Nikolay Yakovlevich (ussr) - 496
#1 Simo Häyhä (finland) - 542

The "non-confirmed" number of kills varies a lot, mainly because different people have spread the rumor in a bit different way and numbers tend to grow the more and more the rumor's spread.

But of course the situation also matters. How do you compare Stalingrad's urban enviroment and M44 Mosing Nagant Carbine with telescopic sights (Zaitsev) to Karelian forests and m/28-30 Civil Guard Rifle with iron sights (Häyhä)?

[xbow]

Kashluk

Is there a book in english about Simo Häyhä I knew that Finland had produced some great snipers but I did not know that he held the top spot, interesting.

here is what I found out about Simo Häyhä

Simo Häyhä (December 17, 1906-April 1, 2002) was a Finnish soldier, and is widely considered to be the most successful sniper in history. He was born in small town of Rautajärvi near the border with the Russia, and started his military service in 1925. During the Winter War (1939-1940) between Finland and Russia, he began his duty as a sniper against the Red Army. Working in temperatures between -20 to -40 Celsius, and dressed completely in a white camouflage suit, Häyhä killed 505 Red Army soldiers. He used a Mosin-Nagant M28 rifle because it suited his small frame (5 ft). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present less of a target (sun reflecting from lenses gave the position away, and you have to raise your head higher with telescopic sights).

There were also several snipers in the American civil war that racked up several hundred kills each using weapons like this:

[Forty-six & Two]

One of the conspiracy websites is implying it's rather a missile which hit the Pentagon.

Or a fighter jet.

I still think it looks wierd. A Boeing 757 is pretty fucking big... it should have done more damage. Also, it would take one hella good pilot to hit straight into the wall and not even touch the grass at all, at the speed the plane was flying. Look at it, theres not even any burn marks? A plane that big must have sent wreckage flying backwards as well, considering the gigantic explosion. It doesnt make sense that everything was carried inside the building, even the wings.

[Forty-six & Two]

*farts*

Damn double post.

[Kashluk]

@ xbow:

Your source says 505 for Häyhä, huh? Well, as I said, I guess it depends a lot on the source. Who knows, maybe Zaitsev really had 1000+ kills? We can't tell, and propably never will.

I don't know about literature on Häyhä... There are a few books in Finnish, but I really doubt they're translated. Look for anything with "White Death" (Simo Häyhä's nickname) or "Kukusha" (= Russian for "cuckoo" - tree sniper, which Häyhä wasn't, but the Soviets thought he was).

Edit: here's a link to a short translated summary of the book Valkoinen Kuolema (=white death) by Petri Sarjanen:
http://www.snipercountry.com/BVT_Review ... uolema.asp

Edit 2: here's a quote from the book, I don't know how much of it is legend and how much is hardbellied fact, but it's interesting nevertheless:

The book describes in detail an incident when Häyhä was hunting a Russian sniper that had killed several Finnish soldiers, among them 3 officers. The Russian belonged to the Red Army's 56 Infantry Division, and was even a Communist Party member. He was equipped with a Mosin-Nagant M91 rifle with a 3x scope. He had made one sure kill that day, and now he was waiting for another target to show itself. The sun was setting, he was tired and rose to his knees. Häyhä, who had been waiting patiently, saw the sun reflecting in the Russian's scope lens. The distance was about 450 meters. Häyhä had been ordered to try to eliminate the Russian sniper, and he did not fail. His bullet struck the Russian in the head, killing him instantly. Häyhä could have used a scope-equipped rifle, but he liked the open sights because he was used to them and he was able to keep his head lower and present a lower profile and target.

[xbow]

Your source says 505 for Häyhä, huh? Well, as I said, I guess it depends a lot on the source. Who knows, maybe Zaitsev really had 1000+ kills? We can't tell, and propably never will.

Actually I belive that Häyhä could have between 5 to 7 hundred kills and that the numbers for his kills are more reliable.

Zaitsev's numbers were probably inflated by the communist Party. That is not to take anything away from Zaitsev he was an amazing soldier. Zaitsev personally claims 242 kills but that his students and himself killed 1200 germans. Perhaps the party did pad his book a little to motivate the Russian people who needed heros and some good news at the time.

Its amazing that in the 1939 to 1940 war when Russia tried to annex Finland the people of Finland killed almost a million russian troops by the end of the war. Finland was given no chance to survive as a nation by the rest of the world but managed to bloody the big bears nose so badly in the three months the war lasted that uncle Joe had to make a deal after his invasion failed. Amazing!!

thanks for the link



1939-1940 War With Russia

[Kashluk]

Well, we Finns have been riding with that great deed of our fathers and grandfathers for decades now. Most likely, if we ended up in the same situation now, we wouldn't be men enough to face such an over-whelming enemy.

And our great deeds are a bit diminished by the fact that we later joined forces with Hitler and tried to invade USSR. Many innocent Russians died in the Continuation War, because of our national pride and hatred.

War is always dirty. And besides - there were only a few snipers that good in the Finnish military. Even though the average marksmanship was well over the average of most nations of that time, there weren't really that many "stars" among the troops.

[xbow]

Well we Americans have been riding WW2 for the same period of time. In that war the only rear reason we dropped the A-bombs on Japan was revenge. True an invasion of Japan could have cost us a million casulties but the Japanese were trying to surrended as it was. The only stipulation was that we leave the emperor untouched. Truman wanted an unconditional surrender but in the end we allowed the emperor to remain the state figurehead even after the bombs so what the fuck was the point beyond a Harry Truman Tantrum.

There were also some that wanted to use up the five remaining plutonium bombs we had and smash Japan even further into the mud prior to invasion. The plan was to nuke their troop concentrations and then soak them in poison gas and then invade..... not a very sporting plan.

[airsoft guy]

Well the Japanese weren't very sporting in terms of the Western world's views on warfare. They had their own set of rules and all. One thing about them though, theydon't like to start a conflict without telling the other party first, they find it dishonorable to simply declare war by bombing the fuck out of someone. Before you go and say, "Well, what about Pearl Harbor?" The Japanese sent a message to the United States declaring war, but it didn't arrive until after the attack was done and over with due human error or some such thing. When the Japanese pilots and sailors found out that they had attacked the United States without them even knowing they were at war they were pissed. They felt that they had done a dishonorable thing. It's one thing to surprise someone with an attack, it's another to attack when your enemy thinks that everything is all peachy.

[xbow]

Well the Japanese weren't very sporting in terms of the Western world's views on warfare

The Japanese did have their own set of rules the following list proves that:

The rape of Nanking

Use of Korean and Chinese prisoners of war as test subjects for various types of chemical and germ agents

Working 60,000 allied prisoners and 240,000 Asians to death on their south east Asia railway project

The Battan Death March

The use of American and British POW's as live targets so that they could train their field medics on the art of treating gunshot wounds.

Some of the Japanese medical experiments on Chinese prisoners would make Josef Mengele's work at Auschwitz seem tame.

The only thing that sucked about McArthers administration of Japan after WW2 was that they didn’t charge, try, and hang enough of those nasty little bastards for war crimes. Japan did sanction war crimes that equaled what the nazis did in Europe in both scale and brutality. By comparison with the Nazi War crimes trials the Japanese versions were a sham. Still the A Bombs were unnecessary because we let them keep their Emperor just as they requested and it’s a good thing we did. To hang hirohito as a war criminal would be like executing the pope, and that would have fired up an insurgency on mainland Japan that might have lasted forever.

[Mismatch]

wasn't mcarthur like insane?
I recall hearing that he had requested the right to decide whether to use a-bombs without the presidents consent...

[Wolfman Walt]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911 ... dence.html I thought that was pretty relevant to the original topic. I don't remember it being linked, so there you have it.