Duck and Cover

I don't think FO3 should turn in to Fallout rally, but there are a few things which one could throw in. First off, the earliest cars were steam driven, and completely built by hand. This means that any blacksmith could make a car.
Furthermore, all the original combustion engines were also built by hand. All of the cars before Ford were built individually by hand, no machinery involved. Not only that, but they all ran on ethanol as much if not more than gasoline.
If vegetation can be grown, ethanol can be made…In fact, I remember quite a bit of it in Fallout, there were LOTS of stills... however, since the vast majority of the FO world is basically at the subsistence level, it's not likely they would be growing grain to throw into a car. However, NCR, Vault City, and the BOS (and maybe some raider groups) might be able to scrape together a few vehicles and possibly enough fuel for them.
Also, it's reasonable to think that there might be some information on cars in the Vault computers. I think it's completely within reason to think that a well enough organized group could dig up some scrap cars, melt them down if they're too rusted to use, make molds for the parts out of clay or something, pour the molds, file down the parts to fit, and have at least a few engines and bodies which could be thrown together to make cars. Mind you, I wouldn't expect these cars to go much over 45 mph... maybe 50 or 60 for the more advanced ones, but they'd be cars none-the-less.

I think MCA actually made a good statement when he said that the NCR army had a mechanized division...

Think about it, just because every major nation in the world has fighter jets, doesn't mean they're easy to get a hold of for everyone else. The cost of maintenance alone makes it impossible for most people to even consider. I think cars would be much like this. They would exist (and should exist) in the Fallout world, but you won't run across one every day... even if you're in of the wasteland's militias. However, I think it's possible that someone who travels a might run across some old nut who knows how to build a car or could repair one.

BTW, to convert a car to ethanol all you have to do is boar out the fuel injection to increase the flow. Nothing else is necessary.


That's just my 2 cents.

On the issue of what vehicles should be in there... well I'd like to be able to drive my Highway man around town. I wouldn't mind being able to jack a bramincart, and the cheapest form of transport would probabbly be a motorcycle... I wouldn't mind seeing one of those. I don't think there should be any more than maybe 3 possible cars (maybe the taxi instead of the Highwayman)... but it would be cool to run across more (considering you have a much better chance of running across the military than the adverage joe).

As far as the ethanol thing, I kind of like that idea. I think I perfer pouring Rot Gut into my car to using fusion cells.

I think that cars should be nixed. I like the idea of a car, but to be realistic, where would you get the rubber? Far as I know, rubber was gotten from plants in So. America, and after all of this time rubber from around the time of the war should have rotted away. Would have to be something else for tires, and anything that doesn't have some give will wreck a frame.

Ammo can be reloaded, that could be explained why guns are still around, except for HK-G11 series.

Ed the Monkey wrote:First off, the earliest cars were steam driven, and completely built by hand. This means that any blacksmith could make a car.

Really? I'll go ask my local blacksmith to build me a steam engine, whack it on a truck and get me a vehicle. If building a steam engine is so easy, you wonder why it took them two thousand years to build one though, especially after one of the Greek's had already built a steam powered device in B.C. something or other. Oh wait, dark ages after the end of Rome...

Ed the Monkey wrote:BTW, to convert a car to ethanol all you have to do is boar out the fuel injection to increase the flow. Nothing else is necessary.

You've done it? Seems to me there's a bit more involved than just "boaring out the fuel injection".

Also, if it's so easy, how come the Brotherhood of Steel didn't have a garage full of cars somewhere in FO1?

We could debate whether a post apoc. society would get vehicles going again until kingdom come, but Fallout established that there weren't any working vehicles and the Brotherhood hadn't managed/bothered to get one working again. That's really all that matters, despite what happened in FO2 and FOT. If there are going to be vehicles in FO3 then they should stick to brahmin power, I would really like to drive around the wasteland or a town in a brahmin pulled Corvega.

If there are going to be self propelled vehicles in FO3 they should all be junkers, fixed together from a variety of abandoned vehicles and they should all be extrapolations of 40's and 50's designs. None of the Hummers or the just out of the box looking APC's from FOT.

First of all, I think your post is complete bullshit and your view on Fallout is severely corrupted.

Ed the Monkey wrote:I don't think FO3 should turn in to Fallout rally, but there are a few things which one could throw in. First off, the earliest cars were steam driven, and completely built by hand. This means that any blacksmith could make a car.
Furthermore, all the original combustion engines were also built by hand. All of the cars before Ford were built individually by hand, no machinery involved. Not only that, but they all ran on ethanol as much if not more than gasoline.

Ok, let's assume steam driven cars do exist. As you know, you need a lot of steam(water) to run a huge chunk of metal with a reasonable speed. How would you find enough water in the middle of wasteland? Water is a scarce resource in the desert. You'd also have to carry huge crates of coal or wood to heat the damn thing. Where would you find a mechanic/inventor dumb enough to build a steam engine for you? Your idea just screams IMPRACTICAL to me. I didn't bother to write all my arguments at this stage yet, but hopefully you understand by now how stupid idea this is.

If vegetation can be grown, ethanol can be made…In fact, I remember quite a bit of it in Fallout, there were LOTS of stills... however, since the vast majority of the FO world is basically at the subsistence level, it's not likely they would be growing grain to throw into a car. However, NCR, Vault City, and the BOS (and maybe some raider groups) might be able to scrape together a few vehicles and possibly enough fuel for them.

Yeah right, like they'd grow plants and stuff just to scrape enough fuel to run an ethanol-driven engine. There are no car mechanics or car salesmen in Fallout simply because there is no need for such. Again, who'd build the engine and WHY? That's one the basic issues with this whole concept of cars. Why would someone build an expensive, impractical and a totally useless piece of junk that would most probably break down somewhere in the desert? People living in the wasteland have adjusted to life without cars, just look at the towns and communities there, why would they need to travel to distant places? They aren't on a holy mission to find a GECK.

Also, it's reasonable to think that there might be some information on cars in the Vault computers. I think it's completely within reason to think that a well enough organized group could dig up some scrap cars, melt them down if they're too rusted to use, make molds for the parts out of clay or something, pour the molds, file down the parts to fit, and have at least a few engines and bodies which could be thrown together to make cars.

Even if there would be information, practical issues would make this impossible. Fossile fuel driven cars are impossible to operate because there simply is no fuel left. Fusion driven cars, on the other hand, are in theory possible to drive, but fusion cells are scarce as well as fusion cars themselves. Most of them are junk anyway, destroyed by the shockwaves, heat and time they've been exposed to.

I think MCA actually made a good statement when he said that the NCR army had a mechanized division...

Think about it, just because every major nation in the world has fighter jets, doesn't mean they're easy to get a hold of for everyone else. The cost of maintenance alone makes it impossible for most people to even consider. I think cars would be much like this. They would exist (and should exist) in the Fallout world, but you won't run across one every day... even if you're in of the wasteland's militias. However, I think it's possible that someone who travels a might run across some old nut who knows how to build a car or could repair one.

Utopia, wanna know why? Read above.

Mind you, I wouldn't expect these cars to go much over 45 mph... maybe 50 or 60 for the more advanced ones, but they'd be cars none-the-less.

That sounds much considering you'd traverse over rough terrain, but this is irrelevant anyway.

On the issue of what vehicles should be in there... well I'd like to be able to drive my Highway man around town. I wouldn't mind being able to jack a bramincart, and the cheapest form of transport would probabbly be a motorcycle... I wouldn't mind seeing one of those. I don't think there should be any more than maybe 3 possible cars (maybe the taxi instead of the Highwayman)... but it would be cool to run across more (considering you have a much better chance of running across the military than the adverage joe).

One fusion driven car at most, I wouldn't mind not seeing any vehicles though.

As far as the ethanol thing, I kind of like that idea. I think I perfer pouring Rot Gut into my car to using fusion cells.

Go Bender!

VasikkA wrote: First of all, I think your post is complete bullshit and your view on Fallout is severely corrupted.

First of all I think you’re a halfwit who couldn’t think his way out of a box, but my thoughts aren’t the issue. The issue is if cars are justifiable (I never made the absolute statement that they should or shouldn’t be in, I’m just saying they could work) in the Fallout world.

Ok, let's assume steam driven cars do exist. As you know, you need a lot of steam(water) to run a huge chunk of metal with a reasonable speed. How would you find enough water in the middle of wasteland? Water is a scarce resource in the desert. You'd also have to carry huge crates of coal or wood to heat the damn thing. Where would you find a mechanic/inventor dumb enough to build a steam engine for you? Your idea just screams IMPRACTICAL to me. I didn't bother to write all my arguments at this stage yet, but hopefully you understand by now how stupid idea this is.

Did I say practical? No, I didn't. Did I say they would be used for long distance travel? No, I didn't. Did I say there would be any in the wastes? No, I didn't.
What I did say was that before combustion engines were steam driven cars, and that those cars could be built by (good and knowledgeable) blacksmiths. I said nothing else. This means that one might expect to find the odd tractor for farm work or things of that nature near large bodies of water (like, I donno, the ocean) and large amounts of fuel. People have burned buffalo dung in the past in places where there are no trees, one could probably use brahmin chips for fuel. I'm not you'd go jack a tractor that goes 5 miles an hour and ride it 20 miles into the wastes where it would run out of water and break down, I'm saying they might exist and nothing more. I guess you were just too busy reading things into my statement to notice that.
Next time, why don't you try reading what I write instead of what I don't.

Yeah right, like they'd grow plants and stuff just to scrape enough fuel to run an ethanol-driven engine.

How bloody strange, it seems like I've read this somewhere... oh wait, I fucking WROTE THAT in the post you quoted. Yes, the vast majority of people are too busy trying to live to grow fuel, but it's pretty clear that there are A LOT of people who have enough extra grain to make alcohol. If there's one thing the wastes have it's gallons and gallons of alcohol.
That means that an organized enough group, like perhaps NCR, could either buy the alcohol or make their own for fuel.
Just incase you're a complete and total moron, which appears completely possible, ethanol=drinkable alcohol. Are you going to tell me that they don't produce ethanol in the wastes?

There are no car mechanics or car salesmen in Fallout simply because there is no need for such. Again, who'd build the engine and WHY?...Why would someone build an expensive, impractical and a totally useless piece of junk that would most probably break down somewhere in the desert?

Indeed, why the hell would any organized group in a hostile area build a weapon, no matter how impractical and expensive, that could give them a vast tactical advantage? I have no clue what kind of person or group would want to do that... let me think for about half a bloody second.
Considering the condition of the wastes, anyone with the manpower and the know-how would jump at the opportunity to have a car of any kind. Mechanized infantry is how many times more powerful than normal infantry? Not to mention, mobility is central to military power. You can have all the guns in the world, but if you can't get your guns to the right place fast enough they might as well be sticks cause they don't do you a damn bit of good.
It doesn't matter how much it would cost or how impractical it is, governments will find a way to defend their power.

People living in the wasteland have adjusted to life without cars, just look at the towns and communities there, why would they need to travel to distant places?

True, most people wouldn't need to travel but as above armies would find it essential.

Even if there would be information, practical issues would make this impossible. Fossile fuel driven cars are impossible to operate because there simply is no fuel left. Fusion driven cars, on the other hand, are in theory possible to drive, but fusion cells are scarce as well as fusion cars themselves. Most of them are junk anyway, destroyed by the shockwaves, heat and time they've been exposed to.

Indeed, fossil fuels are gone but alcohol is abundant. Engines are relatively easy to make (not reliable ones, mind you, but engines none-the-less) for larger groups. Most cars are junk, rusted solid, but anyone with any simple understand of chemistry (and it appears people do have an understand of chemistry if they understand enough metallurgy to strengthen or even make power armor) knows that all you have to do to get iron from rust is burn melt it with carbon. Once you have the metal all you need is the molds.
It would be impossible for one person, or even a small town, but a city-state like NCR would probably find it well within their power.

Utopia, wanna know why? Read above.

The argument this statement relies on has been completely nulled, read above.

That sounds much considering you'd traverse over rough terrain, but this is irrelevant anyway.

Ever hear of a salt flat? I didn’t say 60mpg 4Xing over boulders in the Rockies I just said top speed. No one measures top speed on rough terrain. Have you ever seen a jeep that says it has a top speed of 3 miles per hour? I’m not talking about the Rubicon Trail here, but yeah it’s irrelevant anyway.

One fusion driven car at most, I wouldn't mind not seeing any vehicles though.

I honestly don’t care either way. I liked the car as a mobile storage box, and I’d like to be able to drive through town with it. If there’s only one car, or even if there’s just a brahmin cart I wouldn’t mind. I was just saying that I also wouldn’t mind seeing a couple of cars either.

Go Bender!

Finally we’re in total agreement.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:We could debate whether a post apoc. society would get vehicles going again until kingdom come, but Fallout established that there weren't any working vehicles and the Brotherhood hadn't managed/bothered to get one working again. That's really all that matters, despite what happened in FO2 and FOT. If there are going to be vehicles in FO3 then they should stick to brahmin power, I would really like to drive around the wasteland or a town in a brahmin pulled Corvega.

Finally an argument that actually stands up. However, just because it hasn’t been done before doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be done later on… In FO1 there may have been no working cars, but it’s possible by FO3 that a very small number of vehicles could have been rebuilt.

If there are going to be self propelled vehicles in FO3 they should all be junkers, fixed together from a variety of abandoned vehicles and they should all be extrapolations of 40's and 50's designs. None of the Hummers or the just out of the box looking APC's from FOT.

I am completely in agreement with this one. If I see a Hummer in FO3 I’m gonna chuck the CD out of the window and start writing regular hate-mail to interplay. I wouldn’t, however, seeing some welded together 32 ford/VW van/panel wagon with a Vindicator welded to the top.
I think the only acceptable vehicle in FOT was the buggy, and even that was borderline…
Hummers? APCs? Tanks? WTF! That was uncreative and as much bullshit as most of the stuff in FOT.

DarkUnderlord wrote:Really? I'll go ask my local blacksmith to build me a steam engine, whack it on a truck and get me a vehicle. If building a steam engine is so easy, you wonder why it took them two thousand years to build one though, especially after one of the Greek's had already built a steam powered device in B.C. something or other. Oh wait, dark ages after the end of Rome...

The clock and the compass are relatively simple machines, but they weren’t created until the Renaissance. Any jackass in the world could make gunpowder, Greek metal smiths could have forged the barrel of a cannon. Why didn’t they do it? Because they didn’t know how easy it was. Your argument is incredibly and obviously flawed, did you even think about it for more than half a second?

You've done it? Seems to me there's a bit more involved than just "boaring out the fuel injection".

No, I haven’t made gunpowder either. That doesn’t change that it’s still within reason. Besides, there probably aren’t any fossil fuel engines anymore. That statement was intended to illustrate how similar fossil fuel engines are to alcohol engines, now how difficult or easy it is to convert on to the other.

Also, if it's so easy, how come the Brotherhood of Steel didn't have a garage full of cars somewhere in FO1

I dunno, maybe because it would have been a pain in the ass for the programmers to code and it was just easier to say that BoS didn’t have any cars. Or maybe the Brotherhood did have cars, but they were hiding them for use as a secret weapon…or maybe they were developing them and they weren’t ready for use in either Fallout.
The technology is relatively simple. If they can figure out how to fix Power Armor and machine parts for that, they should be able to machine engine parts pretty easily once they have the information on how to build an engine and the resources to fuel it.

danferry wrote: I like the idea of a car, but to be realistic, where would you get the rubber? Far as I know, rubber was gotten from plants in So. America, and after all of this time rubber from around the time of the war should have rotted away. Would have to be something else for tires, and anything that doesn't have some give will wreck a frame.

This is the only solid argument that has been yet forwarded on the subject of viability. If there are cars in FO3, this issue should be addressed. It should have been addressed in FO2… but then again, where does vault city and do the vaults get their endless supply of spandex for vault suits? I dunno, but considering they made gunpowder out of mushrooms they might be able to figure something out.

Lunchmeat, your post was irrelevant so it was BAHLETED.

Ed, fixed your html for you. The quotes don't seem to work properly if you have a space between the equal sign and the name.

As for the rest of you, let's try and keep it civil. I don't want to have to edit posts to remove personal insults.

Thank you doyle

Ed the Monkey wrote:Did I say practical? No, I didn't. Did I say they would be used for long distance travel? No, I didn't. Did I say there would be any in the wastes? No, I didn't.

This basically makes your steam truck idea useless then. If some wacky grain farmer by the ocean has built an impractical chunk of metal that moves, it wouldn't probably even qualify as a special encounter.

Yes, the vast majority of people are too busy trying to live to grow fuel, but it's pretty clear that there are A LOT of people who have enough extra grain to make alcohol. If there's one thing the wastes have it's gallons and gallons of alcohol.
That means that an organized enough group, like perhaps NCR, could either buy the alcohol or make their own for fuel.
Just incase you're a complete and total moron, which appears completely possible, ethanol=drinkable alcohol. Are you going to tell me that they don't produce ethanol in the wastes?

The wastelands isn't exactly farmland. If a small community successfully grows mutated corn they certainly would consume it instead of selling it to NCR or some other faction for fuel. Yes, there is alcohol in the wastes, but that's far away from fueling your wet dreams of mechanized infantries. Ethanol-driven cars isn't very retro either, an important aspect of the Fallout world. Fusion cars on the other hand I can understand, another issue is how well cars and other vehicles would fit into the gameworld without unbalancing the game too much.

Indeed, why the hell would any organized group in a hostile area build a weapon, no matter how impractical and expensive, that could give them a vast tactical advantage? I have no clue what kind of person or group would want to do that... let me think for about half a bloody second.
Considering the condition of the wastes, anyone with the manpower and the know-how would jump at the opportunity to have a car of any kind. Mechanized infantry is how many times more powerful than normal infantry? Not to mention, mobility is central to military power. You can have all the guns in the world, but if you can't get your guns to the right place fast enough they might as well be sticks cause they don't do you a damn bit of good.
It doesn't matter how much it would cost or how impractical it is, governments will find a way to defend their power.

There's no armies in Fallout, especially after the destruction of The Enclave. The BOS have power armors, originally designed to replace tanks. They aren't an aggressive organisation either, more interested in research and protecting themselves. Nothing like that what we saw in Fallout:Tactics.
NCR expansion was handled through diplomacy, and not by force(Joining of Vault 15 and Redding, for example). They did have an army, which was more or less a guard force, with their main focus on guarding and defending their territory, not eliminating their foes.
The only aggressive groups I can think of is the Raiders(and other gangs). These Mad Max -like thugs would most certainly use vehicles in their raids, but I doubt they have the know-how to make engines that run on ethanol.

Indeed, fossil fuels are gone but alcohol is abundant. Engines are relatively easy to make (not reliable ones, mind you, but engines none-the-less) for larger groups. Most cars are junk, rusted solid, but anyone with any simple understand of chemistry (and it appears people do have an understand of chemistry if they understand enough metallurgy to strengthen or even make power armor) knows that all you have to do to get iron from rust is burn melt it with carbon. Once you have the metal all you need is the molds.
It would be impossible for one person, or even a small town, but a city-state like NCR would probably find it well within their power.

Wow, you make it sound so easy. Then how come it took over 2000 years to build an engine after the discovery of iron working? I suggest you get familiar with the anatomy of an engine and you might understand that building an engine by hand is next to impossible. Bear in mind that most hi-tech and industrial equipment were destroyed and those left(in vaults etc.) are not designed to build cars. They were designed to offer the basic requirements for survival. Also, a great amount of post-war knowledge was blown away with the oil rig and these fuckers knew how to make vertibirds.

VasikkA wrote: a great amount of post-war knowledge was blown away with the oil rig and these fuckers knew how to make vertibirds.

Yes "these fuckers" knew how to make vertibirds. And now, after FO2, so does the Shi and the BoS. And that knowledge would undoubtedly leak out, even with both organizations security. Also, shouldn't the pre-war PA be strating to not work? its been about a hundred years, life of the battery(was it a battery?).

And it's not because you think a car doesn't belong in the Fo-universe, now is it? It's your logical assumption, that a car, simply, cannot, be, reconstructed, or constructed from new parts, that somehow, would have survived the tooth of time, just like all the shovels, guns, ammunition and other pieces of metal and such like...

Most firearms (especially military ones) are packed in a grease known as kosmolien and then wrapped up in a special "paper" to protect them from the environments. When I got my original M1903 Springfield rifles they were wrapped just like that, once I cleaned them off they were essentially brand spankin' new rifles.

Also maintance of a firearm is not too hard, yes it has to be cleaned and I doubt ole' Hoppes No.9 solvent is in plentiful supply. However greasing up a leaf or some other plant, putting it on the end of a sturdy stick, and running it in and out of the barrel is sufficient enough to keep the firearm in working order. Where would you get the lubing for a firearm you ask? simple! you could always slaughter a Brahmin or some other animal and use it's own fat/grease to keep your weapon in working order.

How about a compromise? CHOICE. I haven't had the wonderful opprotunity to play the first two fallouts and Ive only played fallout tactics on my friends and never got very far. (Which is why Im buying 1,2, and tactics) But I enjoyed that as far as weaponry, armor, ect. There was a lot of options.

Why not just have a few vehicles that you can CHOOSE to take or CHOOSE not to take? Maybe on a mission through a city where there can be someone around the next corner ect. you'd rather have something protecting you.

However I don't think there should be that many vehicles like previous people had stated they would be quite rare. I also think that when the vaults were created who's idea was it to NOT include ANY sort of transportation?

I say add in a military style dune buggy, maybe a large go kart, and maybe a humvee. Make them rareitys and give the person CHOICE of using them.

That way it doesn't matter if you like vehicles there or not. If ya don't like it...don't use it.

GangizKon wrote:That way it doesn't matter if you like vehicles there or not. If ya don't like it...don't use it.

I love this argument. They always use it but it's so idiotic.

"If you don't like the pink poka-dotted elephants just pretend they're arn't there!!"

what a long thread!!!

well, i've skipping most of it, and agreeing with Ed the monkey, yes, it can be viable to build vehicles.

and for rubber, as far as i know, up to the date, all those tires can't be recycled, so, maybe, a lot of tires (where do u think the world has its garbage?) must be available. But, if u don't want tires, u can always use caterpillars (was that correct? the "tires" of the tanks... gotta use the dictionary :oops: )

anyways, vehicles are always useful. That's why they were invented. And if people don't seem to use them, that's 'cause either they are expensive or they are very rare. But if one town wants more adantages (trading, military, etc) they can always welcome one.

now, who can build them? i dunno, what about the remaining ghouls? or the enclave? they have vertibirds... of course, they wont be as functional as the last modern cars, but they can always evolute, u kno, humanity almost was reset from zero. So, they must restart almost everythimg, including the rediscovery of many technologies.

Of course, this won't be that true for Enclave, Vaults and such hi-tech societies.

Ed the Monkey wrote:I don't think FO3 should turn in to Fallout rally, but there are a few things which one could throw in. First off, the earliest cars were steam driven, and completely built by hand. This means that any blacksmith could make a car.

Then that blacksmith goes to the local store and orders a mess of coal shipped by train in from the nearest coal mine! Oh, wait, that would be the difference between the late 1800s and Fallout's 2150s, the fact most people are more worried about where the food and water is coming from than mining coal, and trucking it all over the state of California.

Of course, there's also the problem of where the blacksmith got the iron to build the car. It's kind of hard to smelt down those rusty heaps without coal.

Furthermore, all the original combustion engines were also built by hand.

No, they were machined by hand, Ed. Using machines which press, drill, and shape metal. Large, precise machines which need electricity to run, and tend to rust away if not oiled and cared for after 80-160 years.

All of the cars before Ford were built individually by hand, no machinery involved. Not only that, but they all ran on ethanol as much if not more than gasoline.

Yeah, Ford shaped a combustion engine by hand.. RIGHT AFTER HE CRASH LANDED IN SMALLVILLE AFTER ESCAPING THE DESTRUCTION OF PLANET KRYTON, RIGHT, ED?

In fact, Henry Ford did machine his engines. HERE IS A LINK SO THAT YOUR IGNORANT SELF MIGHT GET SOME EDUCATION.

If vegetation can be grown, ethanol can be made?

Sure, why not? After all, it's fairly easy to raise enough corn to feed a village in the charred wasteland using primative tools to make hundreds of drums of ethyl alcohol.

Also, it's reasonable to think that there might be some information on cars in the Vault computers. I think it's completely within reason to think that a well enough organized group could dig up some scrap cars, melt them down if they're too rusted to use, make molds for the parts out of clay or something, pour the molds, file down the parts to fit, and have at least a few engines and bodies which could be thrown together to make cars. Mind you, I wouldn't expect these cars to go much over 45 mph... maybe 50 or 60 for the more advanced ones, but they'd be cars none-the-less.

Oh, fucking hell. Where to even start on this happy horseshit. Melt the rusted heaps down with what, Ed? Staring at them intensely? The melting point of iron is 2795 degrees F. Steel is only slightly lower at 2500 degrees F.

Clay molds? You've got to be joking! For one thing, clay isn't exactly the strongest stuff in the world, even when fired.. And an engine block is pretty damned heavy. Factor in that 2750+ degree heat on the clay combined with the weight of what you're molding.. CRACK!

Think about it, just because every major nation in the world has fighter jets, doesn't mean they're easy to get a hold of for everyone else. The cost of maintenance alone makes it impossible for most people to even consider. I think cars would be much like this. They would exist (and should exist) in the Fallout world, but you won't run across one every day... even if you're in of the wasteland's militias. However, I think it's possible that someone who travels a might run across some old nut who knows how to build a car or could repair one.

The big difference between cars in Fallout and fighter planes in modern times would be the fact fighter planes are rolling off assembly lines.

BTW, to convert a car to ethanol all you have to do is boar out the fuel injection to increase the flow. Nothing else is necessary.

You're forgetting that alcohol can damage gaskets and seals on the engine. You need to replace those as well. Too bad Auto-Zone is closed on account of being nuked.

First of all I think you?re a halfwit who couldn?t think his way out of a box, but my thoughts aren?t the issue. The issue is if cars are justifiable (I never made the absolute statement that they should or shouldn?t be in, I?m just saying they could work) in the Fallout world.

Actually, Ed, the dumb fuck here would be you.

Did I say practical? No, I didn't. Did I say they would be used for long distance travel? No, I didn't. Did I say there would be any in the wastes? No, I didn't.

If not for long ranged travel, what would be the point, Ed? Hmmm? Puttering around on a Sunday afternoon?

What I did say was that before combustion engines were steam driven cars, and that those cars could be built by (good and knowledgeable) blacksmiths. I said nothing else.

Yeah, and you failed to mention the fact they were so impractical, not too many were made.

This means that one might expect to find the odd tractor for farm work or things of that nature near large bodies of water (like, I donno, the ocean) and large amounts of fuel.

Oh yeah, because radioactive salt water is great for the driver and the engine. Fucktard!

People have burned buffalo dung in the past in places where there are no trees, one could probably use brahmin chips for fuel.

Be sure to set that brahmin shit on fire an hour before you decide you want to go somewhere, Ed. It'd probably take that long to get 50 gallons of water boiling.

I'm not you'd go jack a tractor that goes 5 miles an hour and ride it 20 miles into the wastes where it would run out of water and break down, I'm saying they might exist and nothing more. I guess you were just too busy reading things into my statement to notice that.

So, people would make them.. Because they suck, right, Ed?

Yes, the vast majority of people are too busy trying to live to grow fuel, but it's pretty clear that there are A LOT of people who have enough extra grain to make alcohol. If there's one thing the wastes have it's gallons and gallons of alcohol.

Big difference between fuel grade alcohol and rot gut, Ed. Even with the GOOD alcohol, you're going to get about a third of the miles to the gallon since combustion engines are horribly inefficient and fuel alcohol has about half the BTU value of gasoline. So, you'll probably need about six times the amount of normal, drinking alcohol to get anywhere.. Assuming the car will even start with that 80 proof crap.

Indeed, why the hell would any organized group in a hostile area build a weapon, no matter how impractical and expensive, that could give them a vast tactical advantage? I have no clue what kind of person or group would want to do that... let me think for about half a bloody second.

This would be the time where I refer back to the part contained within the very post where you've written this that you said these vehicles would most likely suck and be impractical.

Engines are relatively easy to make (not reliable ones, mind you, but engines none-the-less) for larger groups.

AND WE'RE BACK TO SAYING THEY'D SUCK! BRAVO, ED!

Ever hear of a salt flat? I didn?t say 60mpg 4Xing over boulders in the Rockies I just said top speed. No one measures top speed on rough terrain. Have you ever seen a jeep that says it has a top speed of 3 miles per hour? I?m not talking about the Rubicon Trail here, but yeah it?s irrelevant anyway.

So, now you're saying that the NCR should relocate to Utah in order to build their 45MPH car?

The clock and the compass are relatively simple machines, but they weren?t created until the Renaissance. Any jackass in the world could make gunpowder, Greek metal smiths could have forged the barrel of a cannon. Why didn?t they do it? Because they didn?t know how easy it was. Your argument is incredibly and obviously flawed, did you even think about it for more than half a second?

Kind of like how the vault dwellers were reduced to Shamanism after a few generations.. Because they're so knowledgable about physics, metalurgy, etc..

Doyle wrote:As for the rest of you, let's try and keep it civil. I don't want to have to edit posts to remove personal insults.

I wouldn't recommend editting my reply, Doyle.

Booja wrote:Yes "these fuckers" knew how to make vertibirds. And now, after FO2, so does the Shi and the BoS. And that knowledge would undoubtedly leak out, even with both organizations security. Also, shouldn't the pre-war PA be strating to not work? its been about a hundred years, life of the battery(was it a battery?).

Having the plans and the means to make something are totally different things. Since the enclave had the last working source of oil on the planet, and they ran an oil tanker to Navarro to set up a refueling base.. Might be kind of hard to get one of those puppies in the air.

GangizKon wrote:I say add in a military style dune buggy, maybe a large go kart, and maybe a humvee. Make them rareitys and give the person CHOICE of using them.

How about you play Fallout a few more times. Be sure to check out all the humvees laying around.

axltrauts wrote:and for rubber, as far as i know, up to the date, all those tires can't be recycled, so, maybe, a lot of tires (where do u think the world has its garbage?) must be available. But, if u don't want tires, u can always use caterpillars (was that correct? the "tires" of the tanks... gotta use the dictionary )

Um, tires are recycled.

http://www.rubberizedasphalt.org/

Of course, they also dry rot, too. Good luck driving on a 160 year old tire!

Some Idiot wrote:
I don't think FO3 should turn in to Fallout rally, but there are a few things which one could throw in. First off, the earliest cars were steam driven, and completely built by hand. This means that any blacksmith could make a car.

It's like saying,
"Albert Einstein, who was a theoretical physicist, came up with the idea to make atom bombs. Therefore he could make them. And so can any theoretical physicist."

Listen, dunce. Coming up with an idea and the principles isn't the same as Oppenheimer building actual ones. So shut up, listen, and learn.

Furthermore, all the original combustion engines were also built by hand. All of the cars before Ford were built individually by hand, no machinery involved. Not only that, but they all ran on ethanol as much if not more than gasoline.

Oh yeah, do you even know why the fuck they stopped using ethanol engines? Because, and I quote Saint Proverbius, "They suck". He's explained why, so try reading what other people type for a change.

Also, I wish you good luck in your futile endeavor to growing large amounts of fuel-grade quality alcohol producing corn, and building the machines to harvest them enough to maintain a 'fleet of cars', as MCA so nicely put it in one of his Fallout Bibles.

Speaking of fuel sources, you completely forgot about hemp which, granted is almost as good a source of fuel as gasoline. Pity the fact that growing hemp would be an irrelevent pursuit in a post-nuclear environment. Correct? I simply brought this up so you wouldn't have to and cause a group of people to push your argument onto the ground and kick it while it's down... again.

One would think that you would deserve an education. Or a violent beating. Whichever's best. Perhaps an object lesson would be in order - education in the form of a violent beating.

I wonder how Ford managed to shape bolts. With his teeth, perhaps, or the demi-godly powers bestowed upon him by the God of Cars.

Oh and as for you anal retentive mods (e.g. Doyle), go shovel some coal somewhere's warm. We can't even have a decent argument these days without some so-called 'politically correct' Hitler-wannabe with a secret BDSM fetish posing as a carring mommy on a game forum full of 15-35 year olds who treats other people as children to ruin it all for us.

Saint_Proverbius wrote:
Um, tires are recycled.

http://www.rubberizedasphalt.org/

Man, what a good idea (yeah, new for me) interesting info. i'm reading it right now.

Of course, they also dry rot, too. Good luck driving on a 160 year old tire!

well, right now i'm using a jeep with tires older than my father!! and about post apoc tech, u can bet we (here) can make cars out of shit, fo course, they will be some shit of a car. :p

Exitium wrote:
Oh and as for you anal retentive mods (e.g. Doyle), go shovel some coal somewhere's warm. We can't even have a decent argument these days without some so-called 'politically correct' Hitler-wannabe with a secret BDSM fetish posing as a carring mommy on a game forum full of 15-35 year olds who treats other people as children to ruin it all for us.

man, a mature person writing all those adjectives (they aren't even funnier). i think there are rules here.

What? Ed the Moron posts another wad of poorly thought out garbage? Say it isn't so!

Saint_Proverbius wrote: Actually, Ed, the dumb fuck here would be you.

Again, or for that matter, still.

Let's also not forget that people with the capability to even potentially farm the requirements for the fuel will be in a static farming location, more concerned with farming food for themselves to eat, and that which is surplus isn't going to be used for some stupid triviality, no matter how useful it might seem. Food would be a prime trading item in the wasteland, so they would trade it for other needed gear instead of pissing it away on something that might be a bit faster than a brahmin cart - which also run on what is farmed. Coincidence? Oh, the wonders of farm life.

Therefore the real need for combustion engines is at a very, very low minority, with the capability to make them at a likewise limited amount.

GangizKon wrote:I say add in a military style dune buggy, maybe a large go kart, and maybe a humvee. Make them rareitys and give the person CHOICE of using them.

Brilliant. Another FOT kiddy with no clue of the setting. Before you get pissy at being called an "FOT kiddy", play both Fo1 and Fo2 first with your brain switched on to take a look at the setting, and then try to unsocket both your foot from your mouth and your head out of your ass at the same time.

Nothing points out a bright neon "I AM STUPID!" sign over someone than when they post out a whole load of uneducated garbage. Your views on game design are both naive and puerile, and I'll say that is about as kind as I could get in my estimation.

=====

Holy shit, the level of ignorance in this thread is astounding, trumping that found in most BIS/BioWare fanboys at the Interplay forums. Ed wins the award for Post with the Most Stupid Per Topic in it. I can see several reasons for physical discipline to be reinstated into public education systems. It is also obvious that city kids are getting more involved with Chase the Meme instead of making sure they aren't spouting some retarded garbage.

axltrauts wrote: i think there are rules here.

You're quite right. The forum rules of DAC have always had "post stupid shit at your own risk" as Rule #1, even when it was back at Fallout2.net and I was the main forum admin. Rule #2 strictly states "if you object to anything in reply to the stupid shit you or someone else posts, see Rule #1".

Looks like Saint and Rosh found this thread. People out there, think twice before you post. Resistance is futile.

GangizKon wrote:How about a compromise? CHOICE. I haven't had the wonderful opprotunity to play the first two fallouts and Ive only played fallout tactics on my friends and never got very far. (Which is why Im buying 1,2, and tactics) But I enjoyed that as far as weaponry, armor, ect. There was a lot of options.

You mean to choose between two alternative settings, one with cars and one without? Then how about choosing between all the endings in Fallout 2, depending on how you played the game. Nope, not a good idea at all.

Why not just have a few vehicles that you can CHOOSE to take or CHOOSE not to take? Maybe on a mission through a city where there can be someone around the next corner ect. you'd rather have something protecting you.

Well, getting a car in Fallout2 was optional, as well as using all the vehicles in FOT. That doesn't remove the fact that they're still there. Ignoring them just wouldn't make any sense. A Fallout RPG isn't mission-based.

I say add in a military style dune buggy, maybe a large go kart, and maybe a humvee. Make them rareitys and give the person CHOICE of using them.

That idea might sound 'cool', but you should think first if they actually fit in a Fallout game, or even would add anything without messing up the balance. A lot of factors fight against the existence of cars in a post-apocalyptic universe, not to mention go karts.

I suggest you buy Fallout and Fallout 2 and get a better picture of the setting. FOT was in many ways flawed and I hope you don't mix the FOT gameworld with the original Fallout setting.

Jeezus H. Christ, no wonder people don't like the Fallout community.