Duck and Cover

Fallout online would rock! Like anarchy online, with 3d grafix and that stuff!? LOL!!!

it would be cool as hell!
wandering the wastland with a big (bleeping) turbo plasma!it would be free to play too!

hell yeah! i like your style! but it would be cool if you could get some veichles (pre war and new ones) and build a house from stuff you have scavenged! woohoo!

fallout online could either be the best game ever, or the worst thing since mtv.

a one character-slot feature seems essential to me. and the game should cover the entire US (post-apocalypse, yeah).

I suggest you youngins go play an MMORPG or two, then go back and play Fallout and compare the differences. Then ask yourself how FOOL would be a good thing.

well, wise elder, i know you're quite the reactionary but you should really give things a chance before you bury them into the ground.
FOOL is just an idea.
ideas are always good, it's just the realization of those ideas that can suck both our asses.

i've played all the prominent MMOGs and most (read all) of them suck. that doesn't have to mean FOOL should - by definition - be awful.

Mikey wrote:well, wise elder, i know you're quite the reactionary but you should really give things a chance before you bury them into the ground.
FOOL is just an idea.
ideas are always good, it's just the realization of those ideas that can suck both our asses.

i've played all the prominent MMOGs and most (read all) of them suck. that doesn't have to mean FOOL should - by definition - be awful.

Considering most of the game-mechanics would have to be changed, there's no use for social skills like barter and speech, and everyone will be running around with variants of common fighter templates...

Of those who have played FOT multiplayer, have any of you been stupid enough to put any points into barter or speech? I hope not. A MMORPG would be the same way. Why would I put points into those useless skills, where I could just instead be a better fighter and kill others for what they have? That is, unless it's in a no-looting environ, which would be stupid considering Fallout is the epitome of permadeath.

Fallout Online would be Fallout in just name only. Much like UO was to Ultima 7.

Rosh wrote:Fallout Online would be Fallout in just name only. Much like UO was to Ultima 7.

UO was actually the only one i enjoyed. to a certain extent.

anyways, i won't deny that what you say is true.
but don't forget there are millions of truths. just a few thousand of those truths can make FOOL an awesome (and social) experience.

but to get to that amazing game... you first have to undergo countless discussions. and have them over and over again.
the balance-issue in particular, will need amany sleepless nights. i might be exaggerating a tad.

and if anyone wants to have a discussion about any of the issues to make it a great game, fuck, i'm up for it. sounds like fun.

Mikey wrote:well, wise elder, i know you're quite the reactionary but you should really give things a chance before you bury them into the ground.
FOOL is just an idea. ideas are always good, it's just the realization of those ideas that can suck both our asses.

Ideas aren't always good. In fact, most probably aren't good. Coming up with the idea that sticking a fork in an outlet to test to see if it's on, for example. Not a good idea.

Communism, in retrospect, wasn't a very good idea.

i've played all the prominent MMOGs and most (read all) of them suck. that doesn't have to mean FOOL should - by definition - be awful.

Actually, it does. Many of the reasons they all suck boil down to what you have to do for the genre. The more people you have in a game, the more constraints there are on what you can do. There's a reason some games, like Max Payne, are single player only.

Your outlet argument is good, but the communism one is invalid. That still hasn't been proven. In theory communism sounds good. Since it's never been implemented according to that theory, the idea still stands. It's probably impossible to implement with humans the way they are, but that still doesn't make the raw metaphysical idea invalid.

Saint_Proverbius wrote:I suggest you youngins go play an MMORPG or two, then go back and play Fallout and compare the differences. Then ask yourself how FOOL would be a good thing.

Just who are u calling young!? im 31!

SP, you're right about not everything being a good idea, but i must agree with MF that you're communism example is terrible.

because, the idea of communism is indeed wonderful. communism doesn't have to mean everyone equal thus everyone poor, it could mean everyone wealthy.

and no, i'm not suggesting money makes happy, i'm merely insinuating that if no one had financial trouble it would greatly benefit the world and the attitudes and thoughts of its inhabitants.

about ideas again...

good idea: discovering the structure of an atom
humans processing that idea: the atomic bomb

good idea: FOOL
humans (Urquhart and cronies) processing that idea: crap

what my point was, is that the human process of that idea is the important thing. the human race mostly succeeded in turning amazing ideas into sheer crap. i'll admit that.
but i'm quite certain the process could be positively influenced as well.

and i feel arrogant enough to claim we could be that positive influence.

MF wrote:Your outlet argument is good, but the communism one is invalid. That still hasn't been proven. In theory communism sounds good. Since it's never been implemented according to that theory, the idea still stands. It's probably impossible to implement with humans the way they are, but that still doesn't make the raw metaphysical idea invalid.

Humans are the main reason communism doesn't work. You can come up with Utopian idealogies all you want, but until you get one that meshes with human desires, it'll never work. You can't expect to have that transistional government ever disappear because once those human overseers get in power, they're not going to give it up.

Good choice of comparative imagery. Distopias and FOOL. Will the di-electic of emotionalism do more than legitimize another "cult", whether it be Everquestism or Stalinism.

It will be interesting how the histories will be rewritten, and how the social theorists will have to compartmentalize Marx's philosophy from the distopias that were spawned from Marxist dogma.

Maybe like the way the pure philosophers lionize Plato, and refrain from
advocating his "Republic", unless they're elitist oligarchs.

Funny how the modern regimes still depend on the "cult of the leader",
just like the Roman emperors, or even earlier god-kings. Propaganda's similar too, only the swift way that the B.S.'s shoveled has changed.
Speed of light, these days.

This OL distopia dissertation, or is that desertification, continues; some how blowing sands (or smoke) seem appropriate.

Some of the more interesting treatments of FOOL at V13 left out the FO and discussed the OL dynamics. How a generic OL game could be constructed that avoided the obvious failings of the genre.

Many here are beyond the "cool" stage and desire new and interesting treatments of the theme. One can win some manuvering room by discussing a post apocalyptic environment, and not be restrained by the weight of draping it in FO clothes. By this neutralization one can attain a small measure of agreement that will allow focus on one's new and vital
contribution to multiple player gaming.

I await with suspended disbelief.

4too

A few arguments against FOOL:

Quests would suck. Quest-items would be lieing around and if you found an item I'd need, that quest would be unsolvable.

Time. Travel takes days. Think of that, you want to go to Junktown from Vault 13. 3 days. You have three days to wait since everything's in real-time. Three days. A random encounter pops up. You're offline, waiting for the three days to end. You die.

I personally believe that in the same way that the fallout series was an incredible departure from other roll playing games, functioning with an idea and style that existed all in it's own, Fallout Online could revolutionize online gaming. Think about it, where other MMORPGs have failed, I believe this one has a chance. The major problem with UO came up with PKs, so they banned PKing. Think about the Hub and realize that an area could be policed, but the wasteland could still be open, and since raiders are a major part of fallout, PKing is almost second nature. So work up your chars, join the brotherhood and hunt raiders...
the travel problem can be neutralized if the timescale is changed... say make 1 day last 10-20 min, now that's an hour of travel, yes, unless you're in a car going on a smooth abandoned highway...
or there could be brotherhood transports from town to town, hop in a chopper that leaves every half an hour to whatever place.

Now, what major problems haunt MMORPGs in general aside from pks? Non-roll players if you consider them a problem... but how much easier is it to play these characters than it is to play classing RPG characters. All the RPGs that have been mentioned are set in the middle ages, where this is postmodern. One of the coolest things about Fallout that attracted me to it and made me buy the entire series is how easy the character was to get into. This isn't some knight who's protecting some what-the-f*ck-ever and slaying dragons, but some guy who's dealing with life from behind a .45 (or without one depending on how you play the game). Besides, if it's turned into a T rated game, then yeah, you'll have a bunch of brats f*cking everything up, but if it remains Mature, then it's only us. Yeah the market will be smaller, but it will be more devoted. Instead of loosing gamers every week because of all the restrictions, restrict the market and keep the ones who love it. So can I get some replies on this addressing issues of the problems with other MMORPGs and lets work together on discussing those problems and thinking of how they might be addressed diffrently in FO-OL to make it a fun game for us.

Ed the Monkey wrote:I personally believe that in the same way that the fallout series was an incredible departure from other roll playing games, functioning with an idea and style that existed all in it's own, Fallout Online could revolutionize online gaming. Think about it, where other MMORPGs have failed, I believe this one has a chance. The major problem with UO came up with PKs, so they banned PKing. Think about the Hub and realize that an area could be policed, but the wasteland could still be open, and since raiders are a major part of fallout, PKing is almost second nature. So work up your chars, join the brotherhood and hunt raiders...

I think you haven't thought enough of it if you think the guards at The Hub were much of anything compared to a mid to late game player. In fact, I'm glad you brought this up, because it's a smashing argument against FOOL.

In either Fallout RPG, guards are pissants. There's a good reason for this too. Unlike players, guards don't get out much. They stick to their little towns and handle problems. Meanwhile, you have Vault Dweller or Chosen One out covering vast areas of the world of those games, doing things and experiencing more. Naturally, in terms of RPG advancement, those guards shouldn't be anything as powerful as a player.

Not only is the Vault Dweller/Chosen One out gaining experience and becoming better than the guards who don't, that player is also collecting items. The more powerful a location, the better the items, be they guns, armor, or even drugs. With guards, they're stuck in that town, waiting for the guns to come to them via a trader or caravan, or they're using the same weapons passed down from generation to generation.

Guards would never be able to stop a seasoned player character, because it wouldn't make sense within the setting of Fallout.

the travel problem can be neutralized if the timescale is changed... say make 1 day last 10-20 min, now that's an hour of travel, yes,

One day lasts 10-20minutes? So visually, people who are walking at a rate of 7MPH would be travelling 1008MPH in the game? I'm really not sure there's too many engines out there that can handle polygon geometry flying passed them that fast, nor many players who have that kind of reflexes.

See, Fallout is placed on earth, with earth's day being 24 hours, not 10 minutes. However, even if the day were shorter, people would still be travelling in sync with a little thing I like to call physics. If a town is 200 miles away from you, and you're on a bicycle going 20MPH, it'll still take 10 hours to get there regardless of how long that day is.

And like it or not, it has to be that way. Towns can't be really close to one another because the population density just isn't there what with all the nuclear bombs killing off most of the people and all. Not to mention that the survivors aren't exactly living the good life. So, you're stuck with far apart towns, and slow travel time. Otherwise that whole desolation of the aftermath thing goes out the window. Goodbye, Fallout feeling.

unless you're in a car going on a smooth abandoned highway...
or there could be brotherhood transports from town to town, hop in a chopper that leaves every half an hour to whatever place.

Chopper? Cars? Did I miss something? Two games, one car. The vertibirds were owned by the enclave, and we all know what happened to them.

Now, what major problems haunt MMORPGs in general aside from pks? Non-roll players if you consider them a problem...

Actually, most MMORPG players are roll-players, they're not role-players. There's a difference between the terms. A role-player is a person who is in the game to play a person he wouldn't otherwise get the chance to play. A roll-player is a munchkin who always sees RPGs as getting to the next level, and mastering the game system.

but how much easier is it to play these characters than it is to play classing RPG characters. All the RPGs that have been mentioned are set in the middle ages, where this is postmodern. One of the coolest things about Fallout that attracted me to it and made me buy the entire series is how easy the character was to get into.

Nearly all MMORPGs since the beginning have had noncombat abilities. However, like you said, you'd have to have PKing in FOOL to make it reflect Fallout's "Life is Cheap, Anyone Can Die" feeling, right?

Well, think about that for a second. Every skill point you spend on doctor would be one less skill point in a gun skill that the other guy put in. That means that other guy can kill you if he decides to do so.

Basically, you'd end up with Fallout Tactics Online, just like UO became a PK-fest.

This isn't some knight who's protecting some what-the-f*ck-ever and slaying dragons, but some guy who's dealing with life from behind a .45 (or without one depending on how you play the game).

Here's another fun argument against FOOL you stumbled in to. How well do you think hand to hand or melee would be against guns in real time? After all, in Fallout's TB, you can use terrain to duck behind with your APs, and force the gun person to get closer to you so you stand a chance. In real time, he sees you, you get shot. You get repeatedly shot while you're headed for cover or running towards him. HtH and Melee worked well in Fallout only because it was turn based.

Besides, if it's turned into a T rated game, then yeah, you'll have a bunch of brats f*cking everything up, but if it remains Mature, then it's only us.

You're kidding, right? You don't think there's anyone under 18 playing Half-Life or Quake 3 because of that M-Rating? Give me a break.

Yeah the market will be smaller, but it will be more devoted. Instead of loosing gamers every week because of all the restrictions, restrict the market and keep the ones who love it.

The ones who "love [Fallout]" are the ones who know it's a bad idea.

So can I get some replies on this addressing issues of the problems with other MMORPGs and lets work together on discussing those problems and thinking of how they might be addressed diffrently in FO-OL to make it a fun game for us.

Or you can except the fact that this has been discussed for years, and the conclusion has always been that it'd be a bad idea. It was a pretty bad idea for Ultima, after all.

I need to visit this forum more often; you always seem to beat me to the punch, S_P... :x

Even though fallout is based on earth, there is something called scale. Games are a representation of an idea roughly based on something thats real, not something that is real or is directally based on something that's real. That means as long as the gameplay is perserved than physics are irrelevent, however with scale even your precious physics can be perserved. The world of fallout is already scaled down in a way, however the timescale, i don't think, is dropped quite as far as the diffrence between a real human and a fallout character. if the char was 1-100th the size of a normal person, than the miles would be 1-100th of a normal mile, this would mean it would still take the same time to traverse the distance, but time would also be scaled down 1-100th of the time. (i'm only useing these numbers because they came to mind). Just because we have physics doesn't mean we have to apply all these things to a game... it's called an imagination, use it. Do the same thing as UO and speed up the days. You point out that it's about playing a character, that's a perfect point... did you spend as much time irl playing the game as gametime passed? no. why? because you were playing a character in a made up world. I'm suggesting the same thing.
the T vs M thing... I wasn't completely suggesting that an M raiting would limit the market to the point of eliminating all the little kids, but I was suggesting that it would cut down some of the younger ones. I don't mind playing with someone who's 16 and playing for the sake of the game, but I do mind someone who's 10 and complaining to the game master's about cursing, or whatever. the T vs. M thing only protects our right to grotesque sex and violence, and hopefully limits the market a bit. You see, there's something called niche marketing, that's where someone shoots for a small group, but works to satisfy that group as much as possible instead of shooting for a big group and only satisfying them slightly.
I'd also have to argue that I love fallout, and I think this is a good idea... IF DONE RIGHT. I also think there are more than a handfull of other players who love fallout and know it could be done right aswell. Besides... you don't have to play it. The only bad that might come is a short delay of the next fallout... however it might also benefit you by securing the series forever, and lower production time by increasing the revinue to Interplay or Microforte and/or whoever else. you don't have to play it, and it doesn't even have to be really good for it to benefit you, but if it is good, who knows... maybe you'll acutally like it.... but i doubt it.
A PK fest is fine in some areas, like out in the wasteland... but maybe it should be hard to travel back and forth, and dangerous... but some cities could be protected. Yes a seasoned player could take out quite a few guards, however no one could singlehandedly take out 2 behemiths and a handfull of paladins at the same time. I subimit an idea: I suggest that have part of the plot be that the brotherhood GOT the robots and is using them to defend some towns. There you have extremely tough town guards that are part of the plot. So isolate towns with distance, only a good player could get through the wasteland and get better weapons and armor... maybe that is an answer.
I seem to remember a mission, maybe I'm remembering something that wasn't there, but i SEEM to remember a mission where you steal plans for the vertibirds and giving it to the BOS? The BOS also has zeppelins, which are slow, given, but maybe one would log out at the zeppelin base one night and log in at another chosen one the next. Yeah the enclave was nuked, but their tech is still around... and some of them were still around... again, what's to say some of the enclave didn't join up with BOS after the rig was blased?
2 games...1 car... tactics had multiple cars... but i don't blame you for not including it.
So make cars extremely expensive, travel with caravans and ward off attacks... i dunno... make the mechanic skill useful in finding broken cars and fixing them. I'd kinda like to see a motorcycle in the next fallout... but that's a diffrent matter all together.

Even if Fallout Online did turn out like Ultima Online, there will still be quite a few people buying it. That means upgraded servers, constant upgrades and work on the engine, which means thousands of new sprites and options that could easily be integrated into the following versions of fallout. Even if it sucks, it will make the market for Fallout bigger, and thus another fallout would be much more likely instead of debateable. Futhermore, if FO were kept M, then the standard would be followed again (and hopefully set in stone) thus paving the way for another M fallout instead of some weak T version.

Even if Fallout Online did turn out like Ultima Online, there will still be quite a few people buying it. That means upgraded servers, constant upgrades and work on the engine, which means thousands of new sprites and options that could easily be integrated into the following versions of fallout. Even if it sucks, it will make the market for Fallout bigger, and thus another fallout would be much more likely instead of debateable. Futhermore, if FO were kept M, then the standard would be followed again (and hopefully set in stone) thus paving the way for another M fallout instead of some weak T version.

So how many Ultima games have origin released since UO? Actually fuck that, how many GAMES have origin released since UO?

MMORPGs are all consuming. Once you've got one up and running, it's either a success or a failure. If it's a success, it pays the bills without needing to take a risk on a single player market, if it's a failure, well you're fucked, and there's no money to make any kind of game anymore.

Plus, I guarantee you FOOL would not be M, because MMORPGs rely on reaching the widest target audience they can.