Duck and Cover

for FO1 or FO2... mostly 2.

it might take a wile, but you could make an unofficial patch and fix all the damn brocken quests and such... i would really love that, and im sure everyone else would too.

that way you could live your fallout life to its fullest! woopi!

There are two types of broken quests- Those which you are unable to complete due to errors in the scripting, and those which were never completed. The first is probably (usually) fixable- It may take a little work, but it should be dueable. The second is a completely different kind of project- that requires designing the rest of the quest from the ground up (Sulik's sister, for example.). This is a much more ambitious and difficult.

As for the first, I don't have a huge amount of spare time, but if someone will provide a list of broken FO2 quests and items, I'll see what I can do (I can't work on FO1 stuff until I get my CDs back.) in my spare time, and I'm sure other people will take a look at it as well.. The main reason I've never looked at the broken quests is that I've never run across them (Excepting the NCR Tandi dialogue in the unpatched FO2). Again, no guarantees, since I have no idea how many changes each broken quest might take, and I want to be carefull not to break other things while I am working on that.

.. there are also some side-quests (like in the random encounters)that i was never able to acomplish.. like the holy grenade one.. i never found a fallout guide.. never found that solar weapon although i have finished the game bout a hundred times!


HO! Now that I'm here i need to ask one thing.. does anyone know why i can't load my game after i've saved it everytime i use fic on the *.pro files!!!!!??????

Temaperacl wrote:As for the first, I don't have a huge amount of spare time, but if someone will provide a list of broken FO2 quests and items, I'll see what I can do

I was trying to setup a bug tracker to do just that...

Forget about the *.pro files, its solved.. red.. are u scripting the program or using another program to make that program : (confusing hey )

Hahahah, don't make me laugh.

The pro files are still about only 75% known, which means that the other 25% - and we don't even have an editor to tweak with that last 25%... NONE. It's all left ot hex editing... As an example you can assign scripts to pro files (wether it be items, tiles or NPCs), and I found where (at byte 1C, there's a big endian integer represeting the script used (found the related script at from the line number in scripts.lst as usual).

I'm actually very disapointed in all the FO research that's been done (well, apart for the one Dims did on the map editor, he did an awesome job). I though that the FRM format was properly figured out but all FRM converter/viewers have issues (including mine - I can't access FRMs with mutliple "directions" yet.)

8O Are you guys really serious?

I have been wondering why there is no fan patch to address the just the endings issues in Fallout and Fallout 2. There are fan patches for other "abandoned unfinished" games, and they are generally pretty darned good.

Just "reactivating" the good endings in FO2 for Gecko and the Deathclaws would be awesome! They're already coded in there:

Gecko: "Optimizing Gecko's power plant became the first step in forging a spirit of cooperation between Gecko and Vault City. Gecko's increased power production became instrumental in helping Vault City's expansion. The harsh xenophobia of many of Vault City's leaders faded into obscurity while ghoul and human labored side-by-side to create a center of learning and tolerance where once had stood only enmity and distrust. "

Deathclaws: "With your aid, the deathclaws of Vault 13 became a thriving community. When the vault could no longer hold their numbers, a peaceful campaign of expansion was launched to claim the surrounding lands... "

I think there may be one for Broken Hills, too.

I can't remember what was up with the endings in FO, but IIRC there was an issue or two...

What could I possibly do to help convince someone to actually undertake this worthy project?

Problem with doing that is the Frank horrigan's code is a bit weird. The decompiler can't be recompiled into it's original form either making a patch to the script to fix things make it probable you'll be adding bugs to the game. If you make a mod, at least it's new stuff so it's legit to have bugs but when fixing a bug it's a bit dumb to take the risk to add some... On top of it the ending bugs are all over the place, not just in Frank Horrigan's script...

I't snot impossible but I'm not inclined to do it even though I've though about it for uqite a bit.

Red wrote:I'm actually very disapointed in all the FO research that's been done (well, apart for the one Dims did on the map editor, he did an awesome job). I though that the FRM format was properly figured out but all FRM converter/viewers have issues (including mine - I can't access FRMs with mutliple "directions" yet.)

Let me disagree. Almost every FO file format is explored to some degree. You are right, PRO is still having unknown values, but I do not think that they are vital in simple modding.
And there are FRM-viewers and converters that can deal with multi-directional images.

We have a lot of tools to make mods:
1. Decompiler and compiler are able to produce working scripts.
2. So called Visual Dialog Maker is in the development now.
3. FRM converters allow to make custom graphics (even with multiple directions, as far as I know).
4. New sound can be included in the game (including interface SFXs, critter and weapon sounds).
5. Mapper is almost ready. At least, one can make maps with minimal hex-editing.
6. New locations can be placed on the world map.

Actually, I think that the original FO-makers did not have all this stuff.

Red: What's wrong with decompiler?

So is a FO2 ending bug patch be doable? If so, what would it take to get it done? From a resources perspective, how many work hours? Who would need to get involved? How could we convince them?

I'm not in a position to be able to contribute low-level programming resources to such a project, but there are certainly other ways I can contribute...

I'm still not clear why the developers would have left such an important issue hanging. Would any of them be willing to contribute any insights?
As many have said, endings should reward your investment of time in the game. To see endings scripted but not implemented sounds to me almost like a mistake.

Bottom line -- how can we make this happen?

ABel wrote:And there are FRM-viewers and converters that can deal with multi-directional images.

Well, anyway you can forget about user made characters since no one will take the time to render the models properly for the game... Even if there is a converter that works. The only viewer I've seen which supports all directions is mine (excluding Mapper which isn't a FRM viewer per say )

1. Decompiler and compiler are able to produce working scripts.

Yup, they both work, but taking a script from the original and then converting it to something that compiles is another matter altogether. It's not even that hard to convert the scripts to compile either. But say you change one operation in the script and recompile it, it'll work all right but the script itself'll be very different. There theoretically isn't anything wrong with that but there's an added risk of bugs appearing of which we don't really have an idea.

2. So called Visual Dialog Maker is in the development now.

That was in the works for a bit. Wasn't the project droped? The compiler works anyways... In fact the dialog maker thing relies on the compiler

3. FRM converters allow to make custom graphics (even with multiple directions, as far as I know).

Yeah the do. Though I've not seen multiframed stuff working as I mentioned above it's not really that important - ie: you're probably right.

4. New sound can be included in the game (including interface SFXs, critter and weapon sounds).

5. Mapper is almost ready. At least, one can make maps with minimal hex-editing.[/quote]Yeah. If they can add that part about the script association it'd be great

6. New locations can be placed on the world map.

Yeah. Too bad it's an EXE patch though (which breaks backward compatibility - ie, you then need a custom worldmap.txt to fit with the EXE). A bit annoying but if you actually want more maps there's no other option.

Red: What's wrong with decompiler?

The main problem is actually the compiler. It doesn't support the "loc0" (local?) variables within the scope of the functions. It can be quite irritating when trying to fix scripts.

Well there are still issues with the decompiler, the SetExportedVar defenetivly has a problem...

Heh, wow.
To start off, i dont post here too much, but i am quite the lurker.
A while back i read the thread on scripting, and i came up with just the idea put forth in this thread - why not fix up all the loose ends in fallout 2?
I was pretty surprised and happy to see that it turned out to already be the first topic, heh.

Anyways, i see some pessemism... but hey, it does seem (at least for the most part) to be doable. Why not get together a team of people, and get to work? No time like the present, and the longer this thing is waited out, the less people will play it.

I havent given this very extensive though, but i have a feeling we will need a comprehensive bug list. Also, perhaps the fallout bible could be incorporated, such as putting the EPA in? There are maps with the original locations... and although it would be quite a bit of work to make it from scratch (or were there epa things in the game already? i cant remember) it is perhaps possible.

So really, the only thing stopping us is ourselves, why not just buckle down and start work on it? I know its something I have always wanted, and im pretty sure that a lot of the (quite rabid ) fanbase would pitch in as well.

Hear hear! Well spoken! Let's make this thing happen!

It would strike me that, for a fix that only addresses broken quests and broken endings, a lot of the development issues being discussed above are non sequitur. I don't think we're talking about new graphics or new map locations, just maybe a few new (or reimplemented) items, dialog options, and quest flags. And endings, of course!

Although maybe what I'm hearing is that tweaking existing stuff is harder than adding new stuff.

Am I the only one extraordinarily bothered by the fact that I can't get all the good endings, even though the text is right in the files?

If there are enough of us, I'm sure we can figure out a way to get this done.

I've been going over broken quests and endings for the past few days.

It looks like FO1 was, overall, pretty darned finished. I don't think it's worth opening up that can of worms.

FO2, however, is BAD. Very bad. Many broken quests and endings. But I'm not greedy: my proposition is that we only undertake the bare minimum coding required to be able to reactivate the "best" endings for all areas. That’s it.

As I said, unfortunately, I can't offer much in the way of low-level coding to the project, but I can offer other things. For example, motivation. I'd be willing to donate a bottle of single malt Scotch -- or perhaps outstanding ice wine, if that sounds better -- to someone who could pull this off.

Of course that would also go along with my undying gratitude, but that's not particularly tangible.

Anyhow, maybe that helps, maybe not. Maybe others might be interested in donating a little motivation as well.

One of the things about the missing endings personally is that I find them bad...

That's to say that the Fallout universe wouldn't make much sense with friendly talking Deathclaw's allied with NCR. Same goes with Vault City getting along with the Ghouls.

Personally I don't think they're broken. I think they were cut out... Maybe "accidently"... "Oops, oh well crap, I just broke the good Deatclaw ending and we don't have time to fix it 'for we ship it! Awww..."

Hmm. You may have a point about the Deathclaw ending. (Although isn't Deathclaw a character option in FO:T? Doens't that support it?)

Nevertheless, the "genocide" admonition in the endings rankles. I didn't wipe them out, so don't tell me I did. Maybe we can end with a non-ending, or at least one that doesn't chew you out. How about:

"Thanks to your help, the DeathClaws were spared from genocide, and formed a small community. But it became clear to Goris that interaction with humans was just too dangerous for the Deathclaws. He led them from the vault and into the wastes, where they disappeared completely. As to what became of them, nobody can say for sure, except that they met their own fate... as their own masters."

Not bad, eh?

I still think the Gecko-VC ending is worthwhile. And I'd like to see *something* for Broken Hills.

As for what was intended, we can always ask Chris Avellone, who answers "what did the developers mean" questions all the time as part of his Fallout Bible project.

My booze offer still stands.

Nah... FO:T hapenned ~40years before FO. And they're furry.

FO:T is just some alzheimer affected BOS elder's nightmare, don't mind it .

I do agree that the trigger to the bad ending isn't correct (right now it's set to "if you return and the guy at the entrance is dead or absent, then you are the killer of the Deathclaws" instead of "if you kill him, you killed them" which it should have been - so when Frank comes by and wipes them out two weeks after you've fixed their computer and talked to the Deathclaw about getting the GECK, then the deathclaws are gone and you get the bad ending. It's pretty easy to avoid (ie: don't return to V13...)

What's sad about "new" endinds is they wouldn't have nice speech. Although we could work out some speech .

Doesn't broken hills just die out because the Uranium's depleted? Well... what do you want to do about it? There's no more Uranium. It's not as if bringing a single (or even a few if you care) nuggets could save the town...

Yeah, we should ask CA about it. I'm too lazy to find his email and ask about it right now though.

Oops, sorry, I didn't know about the timing of FOT. I have it, but I still haven't gotten around to playing it. I actually used getting as an excuse to justify replaying FO and FO2. Which got me thinking about FO2 endings.

Regarding Broken Hills, yes, I think you are correct. The best ending looks already obtainable.

How about the "best" San Francisco ending? Is it implemented? Anyone know?

BTW, there's a pretty complete list FO2 endings here:

http://www.seather.bravepages.com/fall2/ending.html

It seems to list both implemented and unimplemented endings together, and makes no distinction between them.

As for writing CA, I volunteer. Would you like me to run a copy of a draft by you first? Let me know.

I think you can get the good ending for SF (where they grow this magic fungee which proliferates in the wastes as I think I got that ending the second time I played the game through. Although my memory's a bit fuzzy and sometimes I think I did something I didn't...

As for the page you linked, it just describes them all, as you mentioned, regardless of wether you can reach the ending.

I just checked the good Shi ending. All you have to do is not turn them hostile and you get the good ending (ie: don't attack them, don't get caught hacking their computers (if you do), don't assassinate Dr Wong although this last one won't actually turn them hostile...)

Okay, then, in summary, we are talking about a very limited "fan patch" for FO2. All it needs to do is:

1. Modify the DeathClaw Genocide ending to something more palatable. (See my suggestion above.) Alternatively, just eliminate it altogether, unless you actually do kill all the DeathClaws. The latter is probably better by virtue of being much easier to implement, and not requiring any new voiceovers.

2. Enable the "best" Gecko/VC ending, i.e. the "center of learning and tolerance" one. Hopefully, the voiceover for this is available with the installation but unused. If not, we will have to do a new one. Maybe AC can line us up with the original guy who did the voiceovers? You never know.

Actually, this is not looking too scary. Any takers?

In addition to the previous offer of alcohol, I am also prepared to offer 1,000 bottle caps and 5,000 XP.

On a side note, in support of silence on the DeathClaw issue, CA wrote in Fallout Bible #6:

"TALKING DEATHCLAWS
BTW, the talking deathclaws were destroyed at the end of Fallout 2. Xarn and Goris did not go on to create a new species. They are gone. Kaput. Goodbye. In fact, any mutant animal that talks can safely be assumed to have died at the end at the exact minute that Fallout 2 was over.
Any last words, talking animals?
I thought not."