Teaching kids to fight back against classroom invaders

airsoft guy · Post by **airsoft guy** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:58 am

Teaching kids to fight back against classroom invaders
POSTED: 9:42 p.m. EDT, October 13, 2006

BURLESON, Texas (AP) -- Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth, Texas, school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they've got -- books, pencils, legs and arms.

"Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success," said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.

That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.

The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.

At Burleson -- which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students -- the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.

Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman's orders, and to take him down.

Browne recommends students and teachers "react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down."

Response Options trains students and teachers to "lock onto the attacker's limbs and use their body weight," Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.

"We show them they can win," he said. "The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun."
Change in mindset

The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since September 11, 2001, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking -- Don't try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt -- no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.

Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw their way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.

In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 others were wounded.

Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said. "How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?"

Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Some students said they appreciate the training.

"It's harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still," said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.
A better option?

William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.

"At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors," Lassiter said. "I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn't sound like a great solution, but it's better than leaving them there to get shot."

Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: "That's going to scare the you-know-what out of them."

Most of the freshman class at Burleson's high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.

"We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do," said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have "a fighting chance in every situation."

"It's terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation," Gilbert said. "Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country."

Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.

"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Discuss.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:16 am

In almost every school shooting I can remember, the shooters were almost all terrible shots so it's worth a try I guess. Guess it depends on how many bullets the shooter can put out vs. how many people are about to smash his face into the floor.

Aneurysm · Post by **Aneurysm** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:32 am

Yes it would depend on a lot of variables but what do they got to lose in that situation, better die knowing you tried all the options rather than being a submissive target.
Krav Maga for all

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:15 am

These kids with the guns have too much freedom, especially the freedom to think they have silly things like "rights".

If they were kept as proper "omegas" without fantasies of freedom and dignity, perhaps they wouldn't "Act Out" in such violent ways.

Not how I would have put it, but good; an insight for intellectuals who do not understand that they are living in an irrational world.

vx trauma · Post by **vx trauma** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:31 pm

That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

it's better to kill than to be killed. my son will start firearm and hth training at the age of 3. as i did. raises the chances of surviving a 'gun-incident' a notch.

POOPERSCOOPER · Post by **POOPERSCOOPER** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:23 pm

The only problem I have with that is if they are terrorists trying to get hostages. If students run towards them to try and over take then they could lose a lot of childrens lives that could other wise been rescued by a SWAT team or negiotator.

It's more likely that it would be a school shooting than a terrorist type situation but that still a lot to risk.

TriangleDragon · Post by **TriangleDragon** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:04 pm

How many of you guys could actually kill a man?

I doubt I could. But I'd be prepared to apply some serious incapacitating injurys. I guess it depends on the circumstance... I just hope the situation never occurs where I have to kill someone.

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:56 pm

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!

Subhuman · Post by **Subhuman** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:25 pm

Hope the cemeteries in Burleson have plenty of space.

St. Toxic · Post by **St. Toxic** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:24 am

TriangleDragon wrote:How many of you guys could actually kill a man?

It's not as easy as it sounds. I usually just go for easy targets, like women and children, because -- well -- it's not a test of skill for me, it's more along the lines of entertainment.

ExtremeDrinker · Post by **ExtremeDrinker** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:33 am

St. Toxic wrote:
TriangleDragon wrote:How many of you guys could actually kill a man?
It's not as easy as it sounds. I usually just go for easy targets, like women and children, because -- well -- it's not a test of skill for me, it's more along the lines of entertainment.

Agreed. Why do so many people think it would be hard? I mean come on...If I had a dollar...I'd have one dollar.

Dreadnought · Post by **Dreadnought** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:33 am

US Americans are so fucked up...

Why aren't they teaching kids more about tolerance, history, geography, culture?
No...

...they rather prefer violence!

To US jerks:

Violence comes from violence!
You fucking morons!

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:11 am

So - what part of pansyville are you from?

Post by **Dogmeatlives** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:17 am

Instead of training a whole school of children in hand-to-hand combat with a nut-job, why not hire one or two year round security guards armed with pistols or keep a police officer at the school at all times. Or train all the teachers that volunteer to learn to use a basic firearm, and keep a supply of guns and ammo under strict lockup somewhere in the school.

Any of that would be better than training children to attack gunmen. I don't think any child would do it anyway. I'm almost a grown man and if I saw some guy coming at me with a gun, the last thing I would do is charge the guy. Why not just scream "Hey crazy gunman, please shoot me first!" Nobody is gonna do it. Especially not kids. The only thing its gonna do is get the gutsy kids shot in their guts while the other kids just watch.

And it doesn't make you passive or weak or a submissive target if you don't charge a guy with a fucking gun. It means you want to survive. People watch too many movies. 99% of people when confronted by a gunman will freeze and/or duck. The human body has no way to defend against a gun. A knife you can dodge, a bullet you cannot. This macho bullshit is ridiculous.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:19 am

The human body has no way to defend against a gun.

Sure it does - it's called, "Don't get shot."

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:22 am

Dreadnought wrote:US Americans are so fucked up...

Why aren't they teaching kids more about tolerance, history, geography, culture?
No...

...they rather prefer violence!

To US jerks:

Violence comes from violence!
You fucking morons!

There once was a Dwarf who talked in circles with a man.
There was a bridge involved.

Tolerance of mass murder is the Gateway to BloodArt.
History is great inspiration for military tactics. (Also we get to write it if we win.)
Geography is essential to martial endeavors and capitalist exploitation.
Culture is cheap beer, guns, cars, pornography, TV/other media,
cheeseburgers, and whatever else can be processed, bastardized, and sold.

Lets have a cheer!
Gimme a "T"
Tolerance!
Gimme an "H"
History!
Gimme a "G"
Geography!
Gimme a "C"
Culture!

God Bless America!

Post by **Dogmeatlives** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:45 am

Wolfman Walt wrote:Sure it does - it's called, "Don't get shot."

Sometimes harder than it sounds unless your in the A-Team.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:08 am

Actually, that'd be if your enemy was on the A-Team. If I remember correctly, them guys shot a hell of a lot of shots, yet.........no one died from it.

Redeye · Post by **Redeye** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:29 am

Wolfman Walt wrote:Actually, that'd be if your enemy was on the A-Team. If I remember correctly, them guys shot a hell of a lot of shots, yet.........no one died from it.

"I love it when a plan comes together!"

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:39 am

This whole school training stuff sounds pretty ridicilous... Like the school board had been reading good ol' Soviet military guide books from the late 40's: "meat wall is the peak of military tactics in history of man". I think Dogmeatlives's idea was a lot better - hire security guards with the same money instead of sacrificing twelve students per each gunman before they're immobilized.