Duck and Cover

I had done some basic school calculations about the Gauss weapons, and i come to an unpleasant conclusion. Here is my reasoning:

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Let's say that:

l is the lenght of the riffle's barrel, equals 1m (metre),
m is the weigh of the 2mm ec ammo, equals 1g (gram) = 0,001 kg,
v is the speed of the bullet, equals 1/30c (light speed) = 10 000 000 m/s (metres per second),
a - acceleration of the bullet,
E - energy needed to accelerate bullet,
t - time of acceleration,
F - strenght of rejection,
P - power used by an average person,

Using these basic patterns:

E = F * t, F = a * m, a = F * m, a = v / t, l = (a * t * t) / 2, P = E / t ;

I've done the following calculations:

E = F * t <=> E = a * m * t <=> E = (m * v * l) / 2 <=> E = (m * v * (v * t)/2) / t <=> E = (m * v * v) / 2;

E = (0,001 kg * (10 000 000 m/s * 10 000 000 m/s)) / 2 = 50 000 000 000 [kg*(m*m)/(s*s) = J (Jul)] = 50 GJ ;
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{that's enough power to energize the city with 1000 000 population for 10 minutes!! :
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P = E / t => t = E / P ;

t = 50 000 000 000 J / 100 000 000 W (watt) = 500 s == 10 min ;}

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F = a * m <=> F = (m * v) / t <=> F = m * v * (v / l) <=> F = (m * v * v) / l ;
F = 0,001kg * (10 000 000 J * 10 000 000 J) / 1 m <=>
<=> F = 100 000 000 000 [(m*m)/(s*s)*kg = N (Newton)] <=> F = 100 GN ;
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{This power would affect the user - i wanna see it :twisted: );


What i'm leading up to is that the only appriopriate word coming into my mind, describing this kind of weapons is "BULLSHIT". They do not fit the whole Fallout universe either. So what i suggest to do is to get rid of these weapons from the next Fallout eddition once for all. It would open up many potential possibilities, what to replace this weapon with.

Open your minds and think up something more ehm.. "possible".

They should get rid of weapons such as gauss rifles and add weapons like pipe rifles.

:

I can just imagine it now.
"Die! Alien mutant beast behold my mighty Pipe Rifle!" 8O

Yeah, I suppose. However the pipe rifle was far more post apocalyptic than the gauss rifle. I mean the mini-gun and the plasma rifle were more than adequate for dispatching big enemies. I'd suggest that weapons such as the gauss rifle were one of the major downsides in FO2. They were far too powerful and they just didn't fit in with the setting.

BTW Meths, the pipe rifle was the first small gun acquired in FO2. I think it was found in Vic's shed.

lol

make brahmin launcher like your avatar. heheh, catipult diseased barahmin like in the middleages. but thats dumb

Well, good show on the maths, Meths, but I'm going to have to say that it's all irrelevant. Realism isn't really an issue when it comes to FO-universe weapons. If it were, would a .223 Pistol w/its cut-off barrel using the same cartridge as the Hunting Rifle w/its much longer barrel do far more damage? (The .223 Pistol has a damage range of 20-30, while the Hunting Rifle a mere 8-20.)

Basically, as long as the weapons fit into a '50s Pulp Sci-Fi atmosphere, they fit into the FO universe, and the issues that govern damage potential, range, etc., are simply those of game balance. That's why the 10mm SMG (H&K MP-9) does less damage than the H&K [sic] P90c, even though they have very similar barrel lengths and use the same cartridge.

Now, if you're going to object to Gauss weapons on the basis of so-called "munchkin-ism", that's another story and I'll agree w/you there, that we really didn't need to tiers of heavier armor than the HPA from FO and the corresponding weapons to breach them with.

I would like to see Gyrojet weapons added to the FO universe, though...

OTB

I'm curious where you got the 1/30c figure. The description of the gauss rifle is:

The M72 rifle is of German design. It uses an electromagnetic field to propel 2mm steel rounds at tremendous speed... and pierce almost any obstacle. It's range, accuracy and stopping power is almost unparalleled.

BTW, assuming you're correct about the mass of the 2mm EC and the muzzle velocity, you're actually off on how much energy it would take to fire that. The calculation you did it for the Kinetic Energy of the shot. It'd take more energy than that to get that thing going because you have entropic loss as the energy is being applied to the 2mm EC to get it moving.

Also, if your mass and velocity are correct, there's no way you'd be able to fire that weapon due to the kick it'd have.

As far as the concept of rail guns goes, which is what a gauss rifle is, they were "invented" around 1900 by Kristian Olaf Birkeland.

There's no reason for the weapon to fire that fast. "Tremendous speed" isn't necessarily light speed. Even a mere 1,000 m/s is tremendous speed.

That's pretty much it. FO Gauss weapon projectiles move Very Fast and hit Very Hard. Many high-powered rifles approach or exceed 1000 m/s muzzle velocity, I can easily imagine gauss weapon projectiles reaching 2000-3000mps.

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product/ ... erfire.htm

Muzzle Velocity is listed in feet per second, multiply by 0.3048 to get m/s.

boywoos wrote:They should get rid of weapons such as gauss rifles and add weapons like pipe rifles.

Why is that?
As far as I'm concerned, Gauss rifles fit well in fallout universe and it's an interesting weapon(and effective too). Fallout weapons isn't just the Mad max style-post apocalyptic SMGs, sawed off shotguns and pipe rifles. Gauss weapons and other 'weird experimental weapons', such as laser and plasma, represent the retro 50's vision of the future. Therefor, I voted Yes.

Have fun arguing over the speed of gauss rifle, by the way.

hmmm. there may be flaws in your calculations
you have stated that
F = a * m and
a = F * m

this quite plainly cannot be possible as if

F= a * m the other side would be
a=F/m

didnt pay much attention to the rest of it as gauss physics are obvoiusly extreme. the smallest they managed to get it real life was on a rather big ship. and even then it dammaged itself in the firing process so much they could only get 4-5 shots out of it.

games shouldnt be about realism or sticking to whats probable.

cant say i used the gauss guns at all in FO2. too preocupied with my pulse weapons (just loved the animations)

Why did you say the gauss rifle was too powerful? From my experance the pulse rifle was just as powerful due to peoples resistances. By the way is the gauss rifle a small or big gun i could never figure this out.

Miracleasd wrote:hmmm. there may be flaws in your calculations
you have stated that
F = a * m and
a = F * m

this quite plainly cannot be possible as if

F= a * m the other side would be
a=F/m

He never really used those equations, he just used the standard kinetic energy equation.

As for the bullet speed - read the gauss minigun description in FoT. I'm not quite sure about that speed either - I've played only in polish edition of this game. It has been translated like this: "pr&#281;dko&#347;&#263; pod&#347;wietlna". I'm not even sure if there is an english equivalence, i'd call it: "under-light speed", so 1/30c is even less it should be. Gauss based weapons wouldn't have it's features without really tremendous speed. How would you explain that 2mm bullet pierces just every armor and does as massive damage? Heh, actually even if you're bypassed with 2mm sized bullet you should't get more damage than 10hp. And another thing - it's only basic school calculations, i haven't concerned any.. ehm.. relativistic effects (does this word exist in english?), because i'd have to remind myself whole 3rd class (not even sure, but if somebody already knows how to do that - go ahead).

As for the reality of Fo weapons - plasma, laser actually exists, pulse based weapons - concerning todays science it's a magic, but acceptable.
Gauss weapons - it's not real, not even "BULLSHIT" - it's MATRIX.

I thought about what to replace it with as well. There might be a plenty of weapons that are much more interesting than this one. Maybe smth based on g36? I mean rifle using caseless ammo, available in to versions:
- long - better range and damage, shorter burst - kinda advanced sniper rifle.
- shorten - it costs 1 less action point (single 4ap, burst 5ap)
available upgrades - 10 x scope, exp. magazine (basic - 30, upgraded - 100).

I have many pictures of that weapons, but if anybody could tell me how to paste them here...

Meths wrote:As for the reality of Fo weapons - plasma, laser actually exists, pulse based weapons - concerning todays science it's a magic, but acceptable.
Gauss weapons - it's not real, not even "BULLSHIT" - it's MATRIX.

It's been said before: The weapons don't need to be real, they need to fit the setting.

The plasma rifle fits perfectly to the Fallout setting.

A Gauss minigun, for example, does not.

I know that Falout can't be all realistic, but at least they should try. It would be good to see Fo3 as a sci-fi game. But science-fiction means game based on science. Fiction = magic. Do you want to see Fo Fantasy2? There weren't that kinds of problems in Fo1. I was always saying Fo2 was heavily exaggerated.

I think there's an obvious difference between hi-tech weapons and magic.

Meths wrote:Science-fiction means game based on science. Fiction = magic.

Fiction = Magic? heh?

Fiction means a story or a setting that's not based on a true story in our real world. Science fiction is a fiction story which deals with science as a basis for the setting.

Starwars was science fiction. It may come as a shock to you, but those spaceships are not magical.

I don't think I'd use "Star Wars" as an example of "Sci-Fi", considering Jedi are basically wizard-knights and they rarely get any of the science right.