Duck and Cover

First off Endocore deserves a medal for map making above and beyond the call of duty, Quagmire is a beauty to look at. I must give Endocore a round of applause for the river, you must have the patience of a saint to cap all those mountain tiles, well done sir, jolly good show.

The use of sound is great, the bird sounds really invoke a feeling of being in the forest and make a nice change from the usual FOT ambient sounds.

Todd and the Chieften from 'What is Honor amongst Thugs' have 3 lots of info to depart to the player, none of which force the player to choose a path. In fact it's possible to hear all the info by clicking on the speaker to bring back the clones until all the options have been heard. Surely this could of been done by the use of speech occured and set click speech triggers as in the main campaign without the need to script the activating and deactivating of clones? Don't get me wrong I think that the clone dialog system is great, the way it was used to offer the choice of joining the Doctor or not in 'WHAT' was perfect, but there is enough to do when map making, don't make more work for yourself than you need to.

*Spoilers*


As usual with one of Endocore's maps there is plenty to see and do. In the readme Endocore states that the map is made for TB play, but here I disagree, whilst TB works well in the factory or slavers camp the map is far too big overall for TB. If you are in the forest and an enemy spots and shoots at you, you can spend five minutes scrolling around the screen to find someone to shoot back at. Also I was exploring the tunnel under the old factory and came across the soldiers camped out in the ruins, TB worked well for the combat in the basement, but was a real disadvantage when I moved upstairs. Unless you are lucky and the camera stays on your attackers or if you can manage to survive long enough to get all your team out into the open, then you are at the mercy from snipers above and below who can see you through holes in the floors and walls. While you cannot see anybody, because of the roof popping, to fire back at. At least in CTB the team can pick their own targets.

My only other gripe was that while there was plenty to do hardly any of it was interconnected. While this would work well in FO 1&2 it doesn't fit, in my opinion, in a standalone map in FOT as you are part of a military organisation with missions and objectives and shouldn't just wander around as you please. In 'WHAT' you had to visit most of the locations to complete all your objectives, especially if you decided to join with the doctor. But in Quagmire this is not the case, although if you run from the robots via the tunnel you will meet the soldiers, there is no other reason to go to the ruins other than to get the necklace to buy Alana but you don't know its there, or that you need to buy Alana unless you've stumbled across the tribals.

Perhaps if the starting location was in the southwest of the map so you had to go through the slavers camp to reach your objective, or if Todd would ask you to buy food from the tribals to gain entrance to the factory and if someone mentioned a legend of a necklace hidden in the ruins, then the map might pull together more.

Otherwise it was a joy to look at and very entertaining, though I'm wish Endocore had made some new sprites for the contents of the factory.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:First off Endocore deserves a medal for map making above and beyond the call of duty, Quagmire is a beauty to look at. I must give Endocore a round of applause for the river, you must have the patience of a saint to cap all those mountain tiles, well done sir, jolly good show.

Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad you liked the map. I hate to toot my own horn, but I'm very proud of the way the river turned out. The map isn't quite as complex as you might think, though; except for the buildings and the mountaintop area, the whole thing is simply a repetition of about six basic landscapes copied and pasted many times.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:The use of sound is great, the bird sounds really invoke a feeling of being in the forest and make a nice change from the usual FOT ambient sounds.

Many folks have commented that the sounds added much to the atmosphere of the map. Since they were relatively simple to do, I'll definitely continue making much use of sound in future maps.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Todd and the Chieften from 'What is Honor amongst Thugs' have 3 lots of info to depart to the player, none of which force the player to choose a path. In fact it's possible to hear all the info by clicking on the speaker to bring back the clones until all the options have been heard. Surely this could of been done by the use of speech occured and set click speech triggers as in the main campaign without the need to script the activating and deactivating of clones?

This is an interesting assessment, and is something no one has ever mentioned to me before. Perhaps it just boils down to my personal belief that doing every single thing in the hardest way possible makes one a stronger person. Seriously, though, what I wanted to have with Todd was a sort of casual, non-directed conversation. That's why you can ask him (or not ask him) about three separate topics (the pop-ups are intended to represent a question asked by the player, rather than anything Todd cheerfully volunteers). I thought this seemed informal and conversational, as opposed to the alternative of noticing that Todd had a click speech, seeing what he had to say, noticing he still had a click speech and seeing what he had to say next, etc. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you had in mind, but given the lack of any speech-tree mechanism in FOT, I don't see any other way to do what I had in mind in this case.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:As usual with one of Endocore's maps there is plenty to see and do.

I'm glad you've found this to be the case, as it's definitely one of my overriding design goals. If I'm going to spend 150 hours making a map, I figure I might as well get as much bang for my buck as possible. I think having many things to do in a map, including many things utterly irrelevant to "the mission," increases the possibility for role-playing, adds to the immersion in the game, and increases replay value.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:In the readme Endocore states that the map is made for TB play, but here I disagree, whilst TB works well in the factory or slavers camp the map is far too big overall for TB.

This is really a matter of personal preference. I'm glad that most folks have found my maps to be entertaining in CTB mode, but personally I don't like CTB and only enjoy playing in TB mode. The troubles you mentioned in the building full of the soldiers in green and black armor during TB play can be overcome by clicking on a different PC's name bar during the turn of a unit that can't see the enemy, thereby changing the view slightly and popping floors/roofs as necessary. This building was meant to be extremely difficult in any case, as it represents a simulated assault on a well-defended position.

Other matters of personal preference can often be surprising to a mapper as well. For example, although I included vehicles for the player to use in all my maps and many folks have pointed out how much they enjoyed using these, I never use them myself when playing my own maps. I instead prefer walking and sneaking around.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:My only other gripe was that while there was plenty to do hardly any of it was interconnected.

This is a legitimate criticism, and in fact I tend to agree with you. However, in making Quagmire I started from a very different premise than in my other maps. "BOSCops" and "What Is Honor Amongst Thugs" both had a definite story that I wanted to explore, and everything in those maps was a complement to that. In Quagmire, however, my only goal in making the map was to explore some various tactical situations that I had not gotten to do before, primarily engagements in the open field between roving patrols and dedicated fortress assaults. The story in Quagmire exists only to facilitate a possible reason for these combats to occur. The actual "mission" itself can be accomplished by quickly moving up the eastern third of the map to the factory, and in fact the core mission can be accomplished non-violently without ever firing a shot. That's why I added the orders in the briefing about exploring the unknown far-off area, making contact with whatever locals may be around, etc. Finding the necklace and being able to purchase the tribal woman Alana from the slavers is actually a kind of easter egg, since again given the purpose of the map I mainly enjoy eliminating the slavers with the variations of assaulting their fortress from outside or figthing my way out from the inside. Also, if you check out the scripting for the map, you'll also see that I put the scripts dealing with the soldiers from the "Oklahoma Liberation Army" in a section called something like "Mysterious soldiers who serve no purpose other than to keep the player guessing." So you're quite right about the story being disjointed, but this map didn't really have a story to tell in the first place. Your suggestions for improving the cohesion of the plot are all very good, and I would have done something along those lines had I not been so impatient at the time to stop making the map and start playing it.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:I'm wish Endocore had made some new sprites for the contents of the factory.

Yeah, that would be very cool, but unfortunately I don't really know much about how to make sprites, and in fact I think at the time this map came out Red's Viewer had not yet been made and no one had actually figured out a reasonable way to make new graphics. Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, but I think I sent this map in to DAC at the same time that Max-Violence sent in his masterful DD Chapter Five, which was the first map to ever include a new sprite (JimmyJay86's lava lamp). I guess all I was hoping for was that by including mundane sprites for all the, uh, marital aids I would increase the comic relief and goofiness factor for the map. After all, what can one really expect from a scenario about raiding a dildo factory and bible-thumping cannibals?

Thanks again for your review.


Endocore

Endocore, I've tried capping mountains and I've got the bald spots to prove it, I realised the map was built either via clips or copy & paste but you've still got to put the sections together and then line them up so hats off to you mate.

I see what you mean about Todd and a loose conversation structure but I don't think the click me, Click Me, CLICK ME! structure would of really detracted from the rpg theme of the map, but have you thought about making Todd a general? Then the player would be able to just choose which conversation thread from one screen. If some nice kind soul would make some speechbubble sprites, then you could have the dialogue come from either direction.

I've played through 3 times now, first time I went straight to the objective like a good little BOS warrior, snuck out through the main factory and out the back door and then sneaked around the site to the front gate. Other than 3 bots the only other things I killed were the bees, then I drove straight for the exit without encountering anyone else.

Second time I killed the generator, it was an accident it only had 10 hitpoints! So since I couldn't get the doors open I explored the rest of the map, the soldiers took me by suprise when I came up the stairs, I play TB on individual TB and once I had killed the intial ambushers it was only rarely that I could get someone in the right position so that I could see the other floors. Mostly I had to kill everyone on my level and then rush to the stairs and then kill everyone on the next level.

Third time I took the ruins from the outside picking off the snipers on the roof first and then working my way down. I've never actually been able to trade with the slavers so far both times I approached the camp it turned it to a full scale battle.

I too prefer TB to CTB, but I can't be bothered to micromanage all 6 squad members all the time so I usually play in CTB. First 2 times I played in TB, third time in CTB though once I reached the smaller areas, factory ruins, slavers camp I switched to TB.

I understand what you are saying that about using the map to explore situations rather than tell a story it's a pity that the player can't be offered a choice of objectives in a stand alone map. I didn't actually find the tribals until the third play through.

I know what you mean about getting the map finished so you can play it, I'm really naughty and playtest every single change I make, when I make one. Unfortunately by the time I finished my first map I had made so many changes I was totally sick to death of it.

I noticed your comment about the soldiers in the triggers, but I hope that you do, at some point follow this plot up cause I'm intrigued.

Cheers

Requiem

PROS:

- Combat is more fun than most of the FoT default campaign missions combined.
- Nice humorous touches.
- Easy to install and play; everything's just "unzip to your FoT directory and play", no making new folders or anything.

CONS:

- The bees dropped my FPS horribly.
- Many "useless" areas: the wide open forest, lots of empty rooms, etc.
- Containers are strange; why make a room full of book cases if only one of them works? And if that one works, why leave it empty?
- We get a vehicle, and about a thousand trees to slam into. It makes the vehicle practically useless, because when walking you can click on a spot far away and be sure you'll get there instead having to reposition your squad every five inches.

By the way, can someone please tell me how to get past the locked door at the top of the ruins? I checked in the editor and you need 300% lockpicking to pick the lock, and though a key is listed in the editor I can't find it anywhere on the map. I rescued the chieftan's daughter (without talking to the tribe first), searched the ruins, killed all the slavers, and talked to Todd. Am I missing something?

BJP wrote: - Many "useless" areas: the wide open forest, lots of empty rooms, etc.

While I don't think the wide open forest is friendly to TB, I wouldn't say it was useless, nor the empty rooms. Remember you can have 'too much of a good thing', having every room full of enemies or goodies can get tediously boring, more so than you'd think. The empty rooms just heighten the gameplay, as you never know what you're going to find behind a door or around a corner.

BJP wrote:- Containers are strange; why make a room full of book cases if only one of them works? And if that one works, why leave it empty?

Same goes for the containers, having most empty makes you appreciate the full ones even more, besides it's nice to be able to interact with things in a game, even if they are useless. Red Herrings can be quite tasty : )

BJP wrote:- We get a vehicle, and about a thousand trees to slam into. It makes the vehicle practically useless, because when walking you can click on a spot far away and be sure you'll get there instead having to reposition your squad every five inches.

The vehicles are a big disappointment in FOT anyway, without enemy controlled vehicles, they are little more than an extra layer of armour, and a mobile storage space. Other than having them as an objective to capture or an extra npc to be kept alive they have little value, but as Endocore said he put it in to give the player the choice. You don't have to drive it, just cause it's there : ) Just think of it as how the squad got to the area in the first place, since their mission had some priority.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Endocore, I've tried capping mountains and I've got the bald spots to prove it, I realised the map was built either via clips or copy & paste but you've still got to put the sections together and then line them up so hats off to you mate.

You're right, mountains are a real pain to build. Lots of mountains appear in two of my maps, and anyone who wants to just copy and paste out of one of my maps into their own creation instead of building new mountains is welcome to do so and save themselves hours of aggravation.

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:I see what you mean about Todd and a loose conversation structure but I don't think the click me, Click Me, CLICK ME! structure would of really detracted from the rpg theme of the map, but have you thought about making Todd a general? Then the player would be able to just choose which conversation thread from one screen. If some nice kind soul would make some speechbubble sprites, then you could have the dialogue come from either direction.

I think JJ86 was on to something a while back when he made those "yes" and "no" sprites. I've been thinking lately that instead of having pop-up clones of an NPC's body appear during a conversation, it might be better to use a series of sprites that have an image of the words "reply" and "ask".

Thank you to BJP for your comments. I'm glad to hear that you found the combat engaging, since that was really my focus in this map.

Your comment about all the empty/useless containers and vehicles are quite valid from a certain viewpoint. In regard to empty containers, I myself actually like that sort of thing when playing a game. I like to explore and search dark corners, but I think too many games are of the "monty haul" type with treasure at every turn. I find it much more rewarding to actually find some minor item after searching fifty empty treasure chests than to find loot laying all over the place. In regard to the difficulty of driving the vehicle through the forest, I was looking at things from the viewpoint already mentioned by requiem_for_a_starfury, namely that the vehicle was how the PC's got to the mission area where they would proceed on foot. I almost never use vehicles in-game myself. Nonetheless, perhaps it would have been better to have a few less trees to ease navigation for players who do like to use vehicles.

Thanks again to everyone for the comments.

Endocore

endocore wrote:I think JJ86 was on to something a while back when he made those "yes" and "no" sprites. I've been thinking lately that instead of having pop-up clones of an NPC's body appear during a conversation, it might be better to use a series of sprites that have an image of the words "reply" and "ask".

Hmm I was thinking more along the lines of the theatre masks, you know happy, sad & neutral faces.

Perhaps some bright spark could have a go at cutting pipboy's head out from the character screen cartoons and turning them into sprites?

EditOr we could use the pipboy entity for the clones, then there would be no confusing them. Have one unarmed for the peaceful conversation, and one with a rifle for an aggresive approach.