Stimpacks and Twitching

[OnTheBounce]

46 + 2 has been hell-bent on trying to make using Stimpacks as painful as possible for a player to encourage the use of medical skills other than the those that simply instantly recover a character's hit points. This is a good thing, but I'm going to throw out some other suggestions for how the various Stimpacks can be modified to make players less dependent on them:

1. My favorite: Set Stimpacks to add Overdose points to a character. When enough have accumulated the character will collapse from chemical overdose and take damage. I do not know, however, how long accumulated OD pts. stay w/a character. It may be linked to heal rate (just like the removal of the "Bandaged" state is), or it make be linked to a drug's duration. So some experimentation is in order to fine tune/explore this solution/modification.
2. Rather than poisoning a character, if you want to remove the HP that are gained, you can set up all types of Stimpack to do damage after a certain time. Rather than the few measly HP you loose from a Super Stim (9 in all) you could set up even the lowly Stimpack to do the mean number of points cured (avg. of 5-20 = 12.5 rounded up to 13), perhaps splitting the amount into two groups of 3 and 10 or 5 and 8 or whatever is to your liking. (Note that the use of a mean figure means that you can actually loose more HP in the long run than you gained in the short run...)
3. Not really a modification, but the mapper/designer can simply place very, very, very few on the map. This will make players save Stimpacks for when they need them, for instance a scout is shot up behind enemy lines and the player can't get his/her non-sneaking medic through to him/her.

Thoughts, comments or questions?

OTB

[Jimmyjay86]

I like option 3 the best. As I play through JA2 more I like their system. They have first aid kits and med kits. Both can be used in mission maps to stop blood flow when you have been wounded. If you don't stop blood flow, you will keep losing HP until you pass out and then die. But the kits do not heal hit points in the missions. When you go the world map you can use med kits to heal HP but it takes awhile to do depending on bad you are wounded. This system would have been nicely transferred to FOT.

[Flamescreen]

Like 3,2,1 in that exact order. Very good thoughts, I might add. This thread has to be transfered to my Notebook...

[Max-Violence]

I plan on using #3 in all of my maps from now on. The idea of a healing item doing damage is just plain silly to me...

[Jimmyjay86]

Considering that stimpacks were mostly made before the war, I'd say there should be few of them. Remember Cassidy always saying, "I'm glad they made so many of theses before the war.". Another alternative is to make quite a few identical stimpack entities but create them so they are "sour" and will poison instead of healing.

[Viktor]

How about 1 and 3 together?

I also like JJ86's idea about spolied stimpaks doing damage instead of healing. Doesn't putting FO:T between FO's 1 and 2 means it's been a hundred years since anyone made stimpaks apart from the BoS?? That's a damn long shelf life for ones recovered in the field...

Ones bought from BoS medical officers should be safe, but ones purchased in the Wastelands and looted from dead enemies would need to be checked by a skilled medic first - possibly for a small fee??

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Definately a combination of all three, stimpaks should have a high addictive chance, like morphine, and serious OD consequences. Good condition stimpaks should be very rare and there should be various spoiled stimpaks which have a range of negative effects.

I was kind of thinking along similar lines for bullets, that pre-war manufactured ammo should have a high mis-fire rate. Also post-apoc produced ammo would be more likely to cause weapons to jam, as it most likely been cast in a blacksmiths and not all ways be to the proper dimensions. We could stimulate the former by changing the text in reasons.txt to read the gun has misfired rather than the character has missed. The latter would be mean putting guns in the maps which would blow up in the user's faces.

As I play through JA2 more I like their system. They have first aid kits and med kits. Both can be used in mission maps to stop blood flow when you have been wounded. If you don't stop blood flow, you will keep losing HP until you pass out and then die. But the kits do not heal hit points in the missions. When you go the world map you can use med kits to heal HP but it takes awhile to do depending on bad you are wounded.

How far have you gotten? There are the regenertion drugs though, which replenish hit points in real time, they are kind of like slower versions of stimpaks. The doctoring takes too long though, even when you go to the hospital, unless members of my squads are really badly shot up I put of healing as long as possible otherwise the loyalty and income drop too much. : (

[OnTheBounce]

The idea of a healing item doing damage is just plain silly to me...

They don't have to be "healing" items, Max. If the idea of Stimpacks w/nasty side effects leaves you w/a bad taste in your mouth, simply come up w/an alternate item.

For instance, you could use the Mutie sprite (since Mutie was a redundant drug) and come up w/a drug that didn't represent an actual healing chem, but rather a sort of stimulant that provided the user w/short term benefits, but leave them w/nothing gained in the long run. The desc could read something like, "Bleeding all over the place? Protruding bowel wound got ya down? Then try our new [name of ritalin adapted for military use]! Just...um...get to a medic soon. K, thx, bye."

This could replace what would have been stims in the core campaign and you could still use the standard stims, only placed sparingly.

OTB

[Viktor]

The desc could read something like, "Bleeding all over the place? Protruding bowel wound got ya down? Then try our new [name of ritalin adapted for military use]! Just...um...get to a medic soon. K, thx, bye."
OTB

Sounds a bit like "special K" to me....

[PaladinHeart]

Woo! I can finally post! Had to figure out to log in to my net account since Kreegle stopped responding to my inquiries about hotmail but oh well..


Anyway I like the idea of fewer stims in maps. I have always felt that stimpacks should have some sort of negative effect. The possibility of them being bad is almost good.. but I dunno about that.

As I said I like the third idea best. Since I am working on an RPG I am going to make medical skills a lot more valuable than in normal FOT, not to mention the other numerous skills that are far from important in FOT.

There are so many possible puzzle elements that skills could be incorporated in. The FOT engine is really nice (other than the bugs), an its a real shame that the original campaign makers didn't think of more ways to incorporate the many skills. (Like you can cover a hole with a broken down car and make the player move it a little so they can climb down...)

Im also changing Science to Codebreaking. Science is too general of a term.

[Forty-six & Two]

That was my first notion, but then when experimenting i noticed that chars killed by this sort of damage wouldnt have a death animation and just stand frozen in death. That isnt really very cool, so I used the posion method instead. Which was alot more complicated and made the use of Antidotes against normal poisning complicated as well.

The addiction point concept is really cool. And very workable as well I think.

[*] Rather than poisoning a character, if you want to remove the HP that are gained, you can set up all types of Stimpack to do damage after a certain time. Rather than the few measly HP you loose from a Super Stim (9 in all) you could set up even the lowly Stimpack to do the mean number of points cured (avg. of 5-20 = 12.5 rounded up to 13), perhaps splitting the amount into two groups of 3 and 10 or 5 and 8 or whatever is to your liking. (Note that the use of a mean figure means that you can actually loose more HP in the long run than you gained in the short run...)OTB

[OnTheBounce]

...[W]hen experimenting i noticed that chars killed by this sort of damage wouldnt have a death animation and just stand frozen in death. That isnt really very cool, so I used the posion method instead.

I see. I'll have to experiment w/this a bit I see. Thanks for the heads-up.

The addiction point concept is really cool. And very workable as well I think.

There should be one addiction that can be freed up in the game: Nuka-Cola, although I'm not 100% certain that this is actually enabled. (I haven't been able to get it to display, but I think that might have something to do w/my not having assigned a duration to the initial effect of a Nuka-Cola. Yes, I made Nuka-Cola heal 1 hp and it has a 100% addiction rate, although the addiction has no effect on a character's stats.) I'll let everyone know one way or the other what comes of this.

Sounds a bit like "special K" to me....

Um...you mean the breakfast cereal? (Maybe we should just call these things "Go Pills" or something. No, wait! That's been used...)

Im also changing Science to Codebreaking. Science is too general of a term.

That's actually a good point, since Science isn't exactly the skill that it was in the RPGs. No turning people on to crop rotation w/this one...

AFAIK there are only 3 uses/effects for the Science skill in FoT:

1. Science switches can be toggled on/off w/this skill.
2. The frequency which Remote Mines are set to can be determined w/a successful use of the skill.
3. A character's critical chance vs. mechanical enemies raises proportionately to his/her Science skill.

W/just those things the desc for the Science skill isn't exactly applicable.

OTB

[PaladinHeart]

Another choice I have made that I like is changing steal to Disarm. Making it more of a useful skill rather than a naughty one. I'll have turrets guarding certain places where you will HAVE to take their circuits out before going in. Otherwise if you fail to steal the cicruits or try and go on in you get fried :)

Shouldn't be too hard to do. Although I have noticed that turrets in general are sucky entities to deal with. They are very buggy when it comes to what weapons they can or can't use.

[Forty-six & Two]

I havnt modded and mapped at all for a very long time now, but recently ive thought about some stuff and im trying to get myself back into it.

Just a thing I was wondering about, ive always thought that the 2 AP for reloading were a ridicoulis low amout for such an action. I just checked it out and I couldnt find a way to change it and IIRC there isnt a way to do it. Is that correct?

[OnTheBounce]

I havnt modded and mapped at all for a very long time now, but recently ive thought about some stuff and im trying to get myself back into it.

Hmph! You'd better! Just when I was about to email Kreegle about correcting a serious oversight on our part -- namely not having 46+2's title changed to "Map Rat" a long time ago -- he comes in with this...this...sordid confession!!!

[Part of that post is a joke. Part of it is serious. I will leave you to figure out which is which. ;) ]

Just a thing I was wondering about, ive always thought that the 2 AP for reloading were a ridicoulis low amout for such an action. I just checked it out and I couldnt find a way to change it and IIRC there isnt a way to do it. Is that correct?

Yes, that is correct: you cannot change the cost of reloading a weapon. Just remember 46+2, it's not a realism issue. It's one of game balance. Don't loose any sleep over it. ;)

OTB

[Max-Violence]

Heh, I've always thought that the perk "Quick Pockets" would make reloading a weapon take 1 AP instead of 2... (Since, technically, reloading is and inventory action -- clicking & dragging the ammo to the weapon reloads it.).

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I havnt modded and mapped at all for a very long time now, but recently ive thought about some stuff and im trying to get myself back into it.

Just a thing I was wondering about, ive always thought that the 2 AP for reloading were a ridicoulis low amout for such an action. I just checked it out and I couldnt find a way to change it and IIRC there isnt a way to do it. Is that correct?

It's a pity it can't be changed, guess we won't be ample to add speed loaders: )

Heh, I've always thought that the perk "Quick Pockets" would make reloading a weapon take 1 AP instead of 2... (Since, technically, reloading is and inventory action -- clicking & dragging the ammo to the weapon reloads it.).

I was a bit miffed first time I played FOT and realised the AP cost for your inventory was deducted for every action in your inventory screen, not just a one time deduction as per the RPGs.

[Forty-six & Two]

Hmph! You'd better! Just when I was about to email Kreegle about correcting a serious oversight on our part -- namely not having 46+2's title changed to "Map Rat" a long time ago -- he comes in with this...this...sordid confession!!!

Hehe. Well I think Flamescreen told me once that the Map Rat title was reserved only for the mappers who frequented the old boards. But its not that big a matter, even though it would look nice ;). Well im off too school now. Thanks for the info, and no worries I will be modding away again when I get home from school.. I even thought about calling in sick today so I could mod, had a great idea yesterday.

[OnTheBounce]

It's a pity it can't be changed, guess we won't be ample to add speed loaders: )

Yes, speed loaders would be nice, however...

But there is one weapon perk from the RPGs that was added: the night scope. I've tested it and it does indeed work. So while actually allowing players to upgrade weapons is still out of the question (except on a very limited basis and then still not reliable for a campaign) you can always have a nice, dark area w/Big Mr. Meanie Badguy -- I must apologize at this point for using the moral vocabulary of a 6 year-old/Donald Rumsfeld -- armed w/a nightscope-equipped rifle.

I was a bit miffed first time I played FOT and realised the AP cost for your inventory was deducted for every action in your inventory screen, not just a one time deduction as per the RPGs.

So was I, but then I remembered how simply spending 4 AP in the RPG was basically a ticket to pop unlimited Stimpacks, reload weapons, swap out weapons, etc., etc. All of this happening in a little temporal statis bubble, I suppose.

Could you imagine everyone doing that sort of shit in MP? You'd essentially have to score a kill in a single round, or else your opponent would be nearly guarantied to have him/herself patched up. Unless he/she were out of healing supplies, of course.

Well I think Flamescreen told me once that the Map Rat title was reserved only for the mappers who frequented the old boards.

I don't think we need to engage in that sort of exclusive behaviour based on tenure or one's link to some ancestral homeland. I'm of the mind that people that actively contribute ideas/work to this board should be called "Map Rats". I don't think we should give the title to just anyone who walks in a banters for a couple of days, but if you're an established member of the board you should get it. I mean, let's not take ourselves too seriously, now. That's the way people end up as alcoholics...well, that and genetic predisposition, I suppose. ;)

Thanks for the info, and no worries I will be modding away again when I get home from school.. I even thought about calling in sick today so I could mod, had a great idea yesterday.

Great! Happy tile-plunking. ;)

OTB

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Yes, speed loaders would be nice, however...

But there is one weapon perk from the RPGs that was added: the night scope. I've tested it and it does indeed work. So while actually allowing players to upgrade weapons is still out of the question (except on a very limited basis and then still not reliable for a campaign)

IIRC the speed loader would be the only upgrade we couldn't implement, most of the others were just clip expansions or increasements of range/damage. With new sprites, the old weapons could be traded in for upgraded weapons using a gunsmith character assuming they fitted into the plot.

So was I, but then I remembered how simply spending 4 AP in the RPG was basically a ticket to pop unlimited Stimpacks, reload weapons, swap out weapons, etc., etc. All of this happening in a little temporal statis bubble, I suppose.

Could you imagine everyone doing that sort of shit in MP? You'd essentially have to score a kill in a single round, or else your opponent would be nearly guarantied to have him/herself patched up. Unless he/she were out of healing supplies, of course.

I'm not a fan of the changes brought in just to cater for MP, how many people actually play FOT MP? Still in away it's a better system considering it's a combat tactical game and not an RPG but coming directly from playing FO2 it did cause me to curse MF a few times. : )

Well I think Flamescreen told me once that the Map Rat title was reserved only for the mappers who frequented the old boards.

I don't think we need to engage in that sort of exclusive behaviour based on tenure or one's link to some ancestral homeland. I'm of the mind that people that actively contribute ideas/work to this board should be called "Map Rats". I don't think we should give the title to just anyone who walks in a banters for a couple of days, but if you're an established member of the board you should get it. I mean, let's not take ourselves too seriously, now. That's the way people end up as alcoholics...well, that and genetic predisposition, I suppose. ;)

I guess that's my cue to say hi to my fellow Map Rats and publicaly thank OTB for suggesting to the admins that my title be changed. : )