Action Point Types

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I've been looking at what the different Action Point costs are, it seems a funny way to go about things, I don't know why they didn't just have a blank field or a pull down list of the ap amounts, it would save having to keep looking up my notes when making new weapons.

I've got so far,

H2H Punch 3AP
H2H Jab 6AP
H2H Expensive Punch 4AP
H2H Expensive Jab 8AP
H2H Kick 4AP
H2H Side Kick 4AP
H2H Expensive Side Kick 6AP
Melee Cheap 3AP
Melee 4AP
Melee Expensive 5AP
Ranged Burst 5AP
Ranged Spray 6AP
Ranged Single Cheap 3AP
Ranged Single 4AP
Ranged Single Expensive 6AP
Set Trap 4AP
Throw 3AP
Throw Expensive 6AP

Repair 15AP
Doctor 13AP
First Aid 8AP
Reload 2AP

Anyone know of any others I might of missed, or any case that might affect the AP cost? Other than perks and targeted shots?

[OnTheBounce]

Doctor 13AP
First Aid 8AP

It seems you were looking at someone w/the "Stat!" perk. The AP costs for FA and Doctor should be 10 and 15, respectively.

I agree w/the AP costs: the designers should have simply had a rollout menu w/costs ranging from 2 AP up to 6 AP for the weapons and then set costs for other actions. I wonder if there are other things at work w/the settings, though, since there are some other factors that come into play when the game determines who gets the first shot. There seem to be hidden "initiative" rolls at work even in CTB since you can sometimes get the jump on someone and then try the same situation and get plowed yourself.

OTB

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It seems you were looking at someone w/the "Stat!" perk. The AP costs for FA and Doctor should be 10 and 15, respectively.

Damn thanks for spotting that, I'm definately not with it today : )

I agree w/the AP costs: the designers should have simply had a rollout menu w/costs ranging from 2 AP up to 6 AP for the weapons and then set costs for other actions. I wonder if there are other things at work w/the settings, though, since there are some other factors that come into play when the game determines who gets the first shot. There seem to be hidden "initiative" rolls at work even in CTB since you can sometimes get the jump on someone and then try the same situation and get plowed yourself.

OTB

It seems a waste of the programer's time to have 4 seperate instances worth 3 APs etc. So yeah you're right, there must be something else going on, I wonder how a gun using the H2H action point types would be affected?

[OnTheBounce]

Damn thanks for spotting that, I'm definately not with it today : )

I know how those days are m'self. All too well... ;)

I wonder how a gun using the H2H action point types would be affected?

I'm not sure. I haven't played w/the HTH weapons too much yet, since that aspect of my weapons catalogue is still largely theoretical. The only thing I've changed to a non-standard value was that I have grenades set to "Ranged Burst" so that they cost 5 AP to throw rather than 6. (The latter setting made a non-Fast Shot grenadier about as useful as teats on a rattlesnake, IMHO.) I have wondered if this also affects things like critical chances. Problem is that the evidence is so convoluted that the only way we're going to get any hard, fast answers would be if some programer sits down and figures it out, or the boys at MF enlighten us. :(

OTB

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The only thing I've changed to a non-standard value was that I have grenades set to "Ranged Burst" so that they cost 5 AP to throw rather than 6. (The latter setting made a non-Fast Shot grenadier about as useful as teats on a rattlesnake, IMHO.)

I don't see why throwing a grenade should take more APs than throwing a molotov cocktail or a knife, pulling the pin doesn't take that long and you'd want to get rid of a grenade a lot faster than a throwing knife ; ) Plus you'd need to aim with a knife, dart or throwing star but since grenades are area damage weapons you'd only need to throw it in the right direction.

[Max-Violence]

or [if] the boys at MF enlighten us.

And we all know how likely that is to happen...

I suspect the redudanct instances of AP costs have something to do with the AP-cost-reducing line of perks and traits, i.e. Fast Shot, Bonus RoF, Bonus HtH Attacks, and anything else I forgot. Perhaps there's a flag in the "AP Cost types" (i.e. Ranged Single Cheap, Ranged Burst, Ranged Single Expensive, etc.) somewhere that tell the perk/trait, "Hey! I'm affected by you! Lower my AP cost!"

Or this is all a conspiracy at MF to confuse all would-be mappers/modders. Of course, what's MF's motive...

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I suspect the redudanct instances of AP costs have something to do with the AP-cost-reducing line of perks and traits, i.e. Fast Shot, Bonus RoF, Bonus HtH Attacks, and anything else I forgot. Perhaps there's a flag in the "AP Cost types" (i.e. Ranged Single Cheap, Ranged Burst, Ranged Single Expensive, etc.) somewhere that tell the perk/trait, "Hey! I'm affected by you! Lower my AP cost!"

Or this is all a conspiracy at MF to confuse all would-be mappers/modders. Of course, what's MF's motive...

Damn why didn't I think of that? Cheers Max.

[OnTheBounce]

I don't see why throwing a grenade should take more APs than throwing a molotov cocktail or a knife, pulling the pin doesn't take that long and you'd want to get rid of a grenade a lot faster than a throwing knife ; ) Plus you'd need to aim with a knife, dart or throwing star but since grenades are area damage weapons you'd only need to throw it in the right direction.

I don't like they way they made the Molotov Cocktail a simple, heavy-hitting Thrown Weapon. It should be -- and is is IOOI! -- a primitive grenade doing Fire damage.

I'd agree w/the realistic argument, and add to that from a game balance standpoint the very high cost of throwing a grenade made them useless for anything but Force Firing them at hiden opponents. (I once took Target after ditching Trevor and immediately returned him to the pool after the first mission. He was very accurate w/the first shot, but the follow-up always came at a point when he was a danger to himself and his companions.) The area-affect property of grenades is compensated for by their very short range, the high cost makes them almost non-viable w/o the Fast Shot trait.

I suspect the redudanct instances of AP costs have something to do with the AP-cost-reducing line of perks and traits, i.e. Fast Shot, Bonus RoF, Bonus HtH Attacks, and anything else I forgot. Perhaps there's a flag in the "AP Cost types" (i.e. Ranged Single Cheap, Ranged Burst, Ranged Single Expensive, etc.) somewhere that tell the perk/trait, "Hey! I'm affected by you! Lower my AP cost!"

Not bad thinking, Max. Not bad at all! Personally, I would think that they would simply tie AP effects from Traits/Perks to the skill that a weapon mode uses. Then again, I'm not a programmer. (A group of people who are exposed to the classical discipline of Logic and yet seem to suffer from a lack of it. :lol: ) I'm just going to sit here and maintain, "Insufficient data for a meaningful answer." (And eventually get back to bed like I keep telling myself...)

Edit: WTF am I blubbering on about? Max's hypothesis can easily be tested...

OTB

[PaladinHeart]

I was reading through this topic and had the same idea as Max but he beat me to it :)

This IS easily tested. Just not exactly important enough to test. I've never really felt like I needed to have the AP cost anything other than what it is. But I may have to balance this later when my campaign is a bit more "playable" (meaning you can do a few missions).

That's a pretty good idea making grenades cost the same as a burst shot. I agree that it shouldn't cost more than it does to fire off a burst.

I also agree about molotovs. I always enjoyed making those things in the early JA games :) I may even implement some way of making them and/or other stuff in FOT.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I've just tested it, made a colt 45 which uses H2H Punch and H2H Expensive Punch for it's single and tripple modes of fire. Gave both the test version and the original .45 pistol to a character with fast shot and bonus rate of fire. Only the original pistol's action points were effected when each pistol was equipped.

I also agree about molotovs. I always enjoyed making those things in the early JA games :) I may even implement some way of making them and/or other stuff in FOT.

Been meaning to ask, there's a PaladinHeart mod for JA2, not played it yet only just finished the original campaign, are you that PaladinHeart? : )

[PaladinHeart]

Yes that would be me :)

I made a few more items like a shield unit that absorbs damage. Characters are much harder to kill with those on but they still collapse after long fights. Its kinda neat but I never finished the campaign for some reason so its just a few maps. Probably due to the editor's capabilities and the fact that you kill the same enemy types repeatedly.

[Max-Violence]

I've just tested it, made a colt 45 which uses H2H Punch and H2H Expensive Punch for it's single and tripple modes of fire. Gave both the test version and the original .45 pistol to a character with fast shot and bonus rate of fire. Only the original pistol's action points were effected when each pistol was equipped.

So I'm right? MUA HA HA HAAAAA!!! WOOOOORRRRRRRRSHHHHHHIIIIIIP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Oh, and congrats on yer new title! Lookin' good! *thumbs up*

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

So I'm right? MUA HA HA HAAAAA!!! WOOOOORRRRRRRRSHHHHHHIIIIIIP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

I knew I should of kept those results to myself. : )

Oh, and congrats on yer new title! Lookin' good! *thumbs up*

Cheers MV, if you want to see what I've been working on for the last couple of months head over to the graveyard.