JE Sawyer on MAD GUN SKILLZ

[Saint_Proverbius]

<strong>[Game -> Update]</strong>

Per <a href="http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... =225">this thread</a>, it looks like he's changed his mind about reducing <a href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a>'s gun skills down from three skills to two skills. [i:1ee205ec75]Old School Roleplayer[/i:1ee205ec75] suggested he just reduce it down to one skill, like in <a href="http://www.jaggedalliance2.com">Jagged Alliance 2</a>, called <b>Marksmanship</b>. Here's <b>JE Sawyer</b>'s answer:
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<br><blockquote>And that is why I'm now more in favor of this than having two firearm skills. </blockquote>
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<br>So, how does this help the options in the game? With one skill, wouldn't everyone just use the best gun rather than the best gun per skill? So, how is this different from his idea that everyone using the Turbo Plasma Rifle in <a href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a> is a bad thing? Wouldn't this just encourage that <i>Bad Thing(tm)</i>?
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<br>Thanks <b>EN</b>!

[EN.]

Per <a href="http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... =225">this thread</a>, it looks like he's changed his mind about reducing <a href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a>'s gun skills down from three skills to two skills. Old School Roleplayer suggested he just reduce it down to one skill, like in <a href="http://www.jaggedalliance2.com">Jagged Alliance 2</a>, called <b>Marksmanship</b>. Here's <b>JE Sawyer</b>'s answer:

<blockquote>And that is why I'm now more in favor of this than having two firearm skills. </blockquote>

So, how does this help the options in the game? With one skill, wouldn't everyone just use the best gun rather than the best gun per skill? So, how is this different from his idea that everyone using the Turbo Plasma Rifle in <a href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a> is a bad thing? Wouldn't this just encourage that <i>Bad Thing(tm)</i>?

Thanks <b>EN</b>!

No problem.

If I remember correctly (I can't quite recall the thread), J.E. is considering putting specialization of guns through perks. Basically, you would just crank up the marksmanship skill, but then you would take perks for individual guns... like, a pistols perk, a big guns perk, etc...

Here are several more threads J.E is in that might be worth mentioning:

J.E on splitting the speech skill into two:
http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... 63&start=0

He's looking into allowing characters to be able to control their NPC's during combat in minor ways with high enough persuasion.

J.E. on the skill list...
http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#475962
third down

From what we know now, that would mean: Guns, Unarmed, Melee and Throwing, Persuasion, Deception, Barter, Science, Repair, Medic, Outdoorsman, Traps, Lockpick, Sneak and Steal. That means Gambling is out.

J.E on character look customization...
http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=30
Scroll down to around the bottom 25% of the page.

J.E on the unarmed skill...
http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#477011

[Saint_Proverbius]

If I remember correctly (I can't quite recall the thread), J.E. is considering putting specialization of guns through perks. Basically, you would just crank up the marksmanship skill, but then you would take perks for individual guns... like, a pistols perk, a big guns perk, etc...

That's interesting, because that's how 3E D&D do it. Weapons proficiencies in 3E are now feats, which are their version of perks.

From what we know now, that would mean: Guns, Unarmed, Melee and Throwing, Persuasion, Deception, Barter, Science, Repair, Medic, Outdoorsman, Traps, Lockpick, Sneak and Steal. That means Gambling is out.

Yeah, I know he's been wanting to toss Gambling, which means on of my favorite character types, the Doc Holiday Archetype, won't be possible in Fallout 3. It would have been nicer to fluff up that skill with elements like card counting, cheating, calling cheaters on their cheating, and so forth.

[Slave_Master]

It would have been nicer to fluff up that skill with elements like card counting, cheating, calling cheaters on their cheating, and so forth.

Apparently it's too much fucking trouble for JE.

[atoga]

Not GAMBLING!!! Skullfucking Communists!!!







I was thinking...

COMBAT
Small Guns
Big Guns
Energy Weapons
Unarmed
Melee Weapons
Projectile Weapons (throwing + bows and such)
TECH
Mechanics
Electronics
Science
Computer Operations
THIEF
Lockpick
Traps
Steal
Sneak
DIPLOMATIC
Leadership
Barter
Intimidation
Deception
Persuasion
MISCELLANEOUS
Athletics
Gambling
Medic
Outdoorsman
Pilot (would work in an early setting soon after the bombs dropped [ie. prequel])

That makes for an even 24 skills.

[Strap]

one weapons skill would really really suck ass. because then your uber gauss rifle char could switch over to the plasma rifle and be just as good as your uber energy weapons char. it makes it so that when you find new weapons you can just use them. thats dumb. there needs to be a challenge in who/how/what your char is going to use and what the are going to struggle at. if anything there should be energy, rifles, big guns, and pistols. along with melee... (melee should include thrown, just because it is doubtful that throwing will be an extremely useful skill)

[Franz Schubert]

Sigh... What happened to the days when game designers had freedom to do their job? Since when did the executives and businessmen in the company start making the decisions of game design? J.E. has said himself (about the realtime hybrid issue) that F3 gets no funding unless it's made exactly like the execs want. J.E. might very well want to make a good game, but he can't because of the restrictions imposed by his bosses.

This game is going to be no different than the rest of the crap that IPLY has been spewing out the last few years, I realize that now. We might as well stop following F3 news, since it is only going to mean slowly watching them destroy our greatest and most promising hope bit-by-bit, until it is transformed into a pathetic shadow of its former greatness.

[EN.]

Well, actually, as can be gleaned from this thread:

http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

J.E. is planning on programming in gambling mini-games... meaning that you would actually have to play blackjack to play blackjack instead of just a luck roll to win. He might even put real in-game This would actually mean he would need to get into more trouble to implement this, and even more to get the card counting, cheating, calling cheaters on their cheating, etc. features in.

[Spazmo]

Ah, bullshit. That would rely on the player's gambling skill instead of the character's! Goddamnit, every day I lose more faith in JE.

[EN.]

Ah, bullshit. That would rely on the player's gambling skill instead of the character's! Goddamnit, every day I lose more faith in JE.

Well, at least he's trying. You can disagree with the man, but at least he's attempting to make a good game. The effort should be appreciated.

Here are some more threads discussing the whole 14 skills thing (basically the exact topic we're on right now):

http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=25482

http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=25468

[ApTyp]

You can get rid of skills altogether and just have stats and perks.

[Sammael]

No.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Sigh... What happened to the days when game designers had freedom to do their job? Since when did the executives and businessmen in the company start making the decisions of game design? J.E. has said himself (about the realtime hybrid issue) that F3 gets no funding unless it's made exactly like the execs want. J.E. might very well want to make a good game, but he can't because of the restrictions imposed by his bosses.

I think that's at least part of the problem. The IPLY execs seem to want features like real time and multiplayer.

However, I don't think the execs care much beyond superficial shit like that. I don't think it's the execs demanding playable ghouls and supermutants, revamping the SPECIAL system, and so on. I don't think execs are smart enough to want anything beyond the arbitrary.

[swordinstone]

if JE is easily influenced by random posters, maybe you guys should start posting there under aliases... maybe knock some sense into the dumb fuck.

I wanna know what happened to "If it aint broke DONT FIX IT!" Fallout has a large fan base and an already exisiting system that works great and really lets you role play your character. I'm starting to wish they would just mod Fallout 2 or Tactics or something, rather than come up with something new. :roll:

[DarkUnderlord]

Notiec that J.E.'s getting more feisty? I think I like it. Uhuh. Uhuh.

And that is why I'm now more in favor of this than having two firearm skills.

Yes well, when you fuck it up so bad by having two stupididly defined categories, anything you do is going to be better, isn't it? Maybe that was the plan all along though?

Saint's right, it does ruin his whole "teh Plasma is teh leetest" argument. Now, all gun fighters get to use the best weapon regardless!

I bet the best firearm will still do more damage than the best unarmed combo move though. So perhaps we should merge those two skills as well?

[EN.]

From what I can gather from the posts J.E. has made so far, he's looking at several "best guns"... but they would require different perk specializations for each to be used. I'm crossing my fingers that J.E. is looking at specializing guns through perks that aren't weapon based. I would really be disappointed if there were a "pistol perk". There were a few posts on the board that gave viable solutions to DnD style feat-like weapon perks- I read about one poster having an idea to put in a bursting perk or different sniping perks... that would mean that if you took bursting perks you would probably specialize in big guns while if you took sniping perks you would probably specialize in rifles.

I hope that they keep the one hander trait. That will allow characters to choose pistols as their select firearm early on in the game without the need for perks. Because without that, a lot of the time firearm boys in Fallout 1 and 2 would go from small guns to big guns to energy weapons... and in retrospect, that isn't going to be much different from how it works in Fallout 1 and 2 already. I mean, everyone already goes straight for the bozar/gauss rifle/turbo plasma rifle/miniguns anyways, right?

[DarkUnderlord]

I hope that they keep the one hander trait. That will allow characters to choose pistols as their select firearm early on in the game without the need for perks. Because without that, a lot of the time firearm boys in Fallout 1 and 2 would go from small guns to big guns to energy weapons... and in retrospect, that isn't going to be much different from how it works in Fallout 1 and 2 already. I mean, everyone already goes straight for the bozar/gauss rifle/turbo plasma rifle/miniguns anyways, right?

No, according to J.E. everyone does a statistical analysis of the game's weapons and goes for the Plasma Rifle every time :: END OF DISCUSSION.

I personally usually skip the bozar because it's a big waste of ammo (Actually, I skip Big Guns most of the time). I usually carry around a shotgun (sawn-off or combat) for the raiders (just so it's interesting, rather than nuking their asses in Power Armour with a Plasma Rifle) and then it's either the Gauss or the Plasma Rifle.

I have been known to use the laser though. I just like the way that cuts people in two. As well as the squishy slicing sound effect. That and the Sniper Rifle. The Sniper Rifle always has some sex appeal.

The other side of his perks thing though, is that it's going to have to be made pretty clear to the player what perks are best to get to use with what weapon at the end of the game, so you can kill the boss. Otherwise, he'll just have the same problem he's complaining about in Fallout. Newbies don't pick the best perks the first time through OH NOEZ!!1! Or they won't have the right strength stat or their agility won't be high enough in order to get the perk so they can effectively use the weapon they CHOOSE to specialise in (when they find out about that weapon later in the game).

[EN.]

No, according to J.E. everyone does a statistical analysis of the game's weapons and goes for the Plasma Rifle every time :: END OF DISCUSSION.

Well he may be wrong on that count, but at least he's trying to fix that problem regardless of whether it exists or not.
He might just end up having the game have to many really powerful weapons that you could finish the game with and make it too easy...

I personally usually skip the bozar because it's a big waste of ammo (Actually, I skip Big Guns most of the time). I usually carry around a shotgun (sawn-off or combat) for the raiders (just so it's interesting, rather than nuking their asses in Power Armour with a Plasma Rifle) and then it's either the Gauss or the Plasma Rifle.

Heh... I actually tackled the raiders once with a desert eagle (and the .223 pistol you find in the locker of the third floor of the raiders). Quite challenging, but it was more fun than beating most of the game and then going through that place with a bozar. But I once went through that place using a mega power fist- and that was pretty cool.

I have been known to use the laser though. I just like the way that cuts people in two. As well as the squishy slicing sound effect. That and the Sniper Rifle. The Sniper Rifle always has some sex appeal.

With it being so long, how could it not?

The other side of his perks thing though, is that it's going to have to be made pretty clear to the player what perks are best to get to use with what weapon at the end of the game, so you can kill the boss. Otherwise, he'll just have the same problem he's complaining about in Fallout. Newbies don't pick the best perks the first time through OH NOEZ!!1! Or they won't have the right strength stat or their agility won't be high enough in order to get the perk so they can effectively use the weapon they CHOOSE to specialise in (when they find out about that weapon later in the game).

Very good point. However, I'd like to say that unless JE decides to force players into taking perks for their gun of choice, or the player is *so* stupid that they don't increase their marksmanship/firearms skill even though they use guns, I don't really see this problem arising. The perks would probably be used to have the character specialize in their favorite gun- makes them enhance their ability with those guns- but it wouldn't make their gun skills worse in any real way. As it says in the manuals, perks are all good. That means that in the end, no matter what perks you pick, as long as your guns skill is high enough you should be able to complete the game as you can use almost any gun. Perks just make you better in some guns than others- but not worse in any of them.

It's both possible to make a rambo character who can pick up any piece of military hardware and start blasting simply by increasing his marksmanship skill, as it is possible to make a niche gunfighter.

Even if a player took all the wrong perks, how good they are with guns correlate directly to how much they have in the guns skill. It's going to be hard for someone to screw up completely.

Then again, that may pose an entirely different problem.

[Saint_Proverbius]

[Well he may be wrong on that count, but at least he's trying to fix that problem regardless of whether it exists or not.
He might just end up having the game have to many really powerful weapons that you could finish the game with and make it too easy...

Well, the problem is, that he's saying this is also the case in Fallout 2, which certainly isn't true. The gauss rifle and gauss pistol are a fuckload better in terms of stats when you factor in the ammo bonuses for the 2MM EC. The gauss rifle takes the same number of AP to fire as the Pulse Rifle, and the damage range for the Gauss Rifle, factoring in the ammo bonuses, is 68-84.5 damage! That easily beats the Pulse Rifle's 54-78 damage range. The average damage yield for the Gauss Rifle is 76.25 versus the Pulse Rifle's 66 average damage yield. So, honestly, how the bloody hell can this guy even remotely claim END OF DISCUSSION when he's FLAT OUT WRONG on the subject?

In other words, his whole reason behind streamlining the skills in Fallout's SPECIAL system is based on erroneous information.

Very good point. However, I'd like to say that unless JE decides to force players into taking perks for their gun of choice, or the player is *so* stupid that they don't increase their marksmanship/firearms skill even though they use guns, I don't really see this problem arising.

The main problem I have with it is that it's a Third Edition D&D mechanic that I don't care much for. Why? Because it locks the player in to using one weapon.

You only get one perk every three levels, right? So, if you want to diversify, you have to raise your level three times just to get that extra perk. This is better than having three skills? Please, tell me how this is a better idea. Seriously.

At least with the three skills method, and you branched out to Energy Weapons from Small Arms, you at least are able to actually use a variety of firearms, laser rifles for sniping, pulse rifles for up close, gauss pistols for clean up, and so forth. Under JE's perk deal, you're talking about burning 9 levels just to do that, and missing out on two other perks.

Here's the kicker, in those 9 levels, with getting around 20 skill points per level.. That's 180 skill points. You could raise Energy weapns from 2% to 141%! Without tagging! AND YOU'D STILL HAVE THREE PERKS TO SPEND!

Come on, how the bloody hell is this even REMOTELY better? Please try and explain that. It was a stupid idea in 3E and it's even worse degenerating SPECIAL to be like it. Hell, it even defeats the purpose of JE's argument, that most people end Fallout with one weapon, the Turbo Plasma Rifle, because that'd be the end result because this is a fuckload less flexible.

[axelgreese]

Hell, it even defeats the purpose of JE's argument, that most people end Fallout with one weapon, the Turbo Plasma Rifle, because that'd be the end result because this is a fuckload less flexible.

There were few games I played were I even used the TPR, in fallout 1 the biggest badest gun I thought of was the bazooka. Although the combat shotgun and .233 pistol were gernally all I used, since I mainly played as small gun only charactrers. In Fallout 2 the vindicator minigun was the bigestt badest gun I thought of, although I didn't generally get it until the oil rig so I used the pancor as my big bad weapon or if I had some big guns skill, the bozar. I never bothered to pencil it out and figure out which one was the best gun, I just had my preceptions of the game.