Duck and Cover

Hey I have been playing with ammo entities a bit. There used to be a list on the board, or old board that showed what the damage and armor adjustments were , like JHP +60dam -20ARmor. ANyone have those handy?

Also what are some 'future' ammo ideas that can be implemented. I changed Needles to flechette and added 4.7mm caseless for G11 type rifles (my aliens pulse rifle uses it too). Any other ideas floating around out there?

seraglio wrote:Hey I have been playing with ammo entities a bit. There used to be a list on the board, or old board that showed what the damage and armor adjustments were , like JHP +60dam -20ARmor. ANyone have those handy?

Edited:

After a bit of searching and researching, here is the list:

1. Armour Piercing = -25% / +50%
2. Ball = -11% / -20%
3. Composite = -11% / +31%
4. Depleted Uranuim = +0% / +50%
5. Explosive = +60% / +11%
6. Flame = +0% / +20%
7. Full Metal Jacket = +0% / +15%
8. Large Explosive = +179% / +20%
9. Jacketed Hollow Point = +60% / -20%
10. Non-Lethal = -100% / -50%
11. Refined = +50% / +40%

seraglio wrote:Also what are some 'future' ammo ideas that can be implemented. I changed Needles to flechette and added 4.7mm caseless for G11 type rifles (my aliens pulse rifle uses it too). Any other ideas floating around out there?

Are you aiming for a "future" feel from today's standpoint, or from that of '50s pulp sci-fi?

I don't think that you should have flechette's replacing needles, though. Any weapon can fire flechettes, provided the right ammo is made for it. Needles aren't simply solid darts, but rather more like the projectile of a tranquilizer dart gun.

If you're looking for '50s sci-fi, I recommend going with gyrojet weapons as this was a hot item "back in the day".

OTB

Thanks for the research. I guess there are no alternative ways of altering this, seems too many armor modifiers. I wonder if they meant to make flame do 20% more damage. That would be more balanced considering FMJ already has 15% armor bonus, and the lowest damage bonus is 50%.

Theres so much more they could have done with entities...sigh

I considered gyrojet, got pictures of the rifle and pistol but I really couldnt figure out what to do with them. Gyrojets did MORE damage at range, tehy accelerated unlike bullets that lose velocity. Even with scoped settings entities in this game do less damage at range. Never trield long only, but that wouldnt be logical. Also couldnt see any other weapons that looked like they would carry a 'micromissle', cept maybe the SPASM gun sprite. Coolest sprite in the game...

seraglio wrote:Thanks for the research.

No prob.

For future reference I'm publishing that info in table format on my site later today.

seraglio wrote:I guess there are no alternative ways of altering this, seems too many armor modifiers. I wonder if they meant to make flame do 20% more damage. That would be more balanced considering FMJ already has 15% armor bonus, and the lowest damage bonus is 50%.

I'm not exactly sure what they were thinking. The thing w/Flame is that most of the Fire-damage causing weapons do a hefty amount of damage already and most armor types offer only very poor resistance to Flame.

I have noticed, however, that no ammo types use the "Composite", or the "Refined" sub-types. My guess regarding "Refined" is that it was intended to serve as the standard 2mm EC sub-type, which would effectively give it the 3/2 Dmg Mod of the RPGs. I have no idea regarding "Composite". However, it does make a nice, alternate "AP" round.

seraglio wrote:Theres so much more they could have done with entities...sigh

Yes, indeed.

seraglio wrote:I considered gyrojet, got pictures of the rifle and pistol but I really couldnt figure out what to do with them. Gyrojets did MORE damage at range, tehy accelerated unlike bullets that lose velocity. Even with scoped settings entities in this game do less damage at range. Never trield long only, but that wouldnt be logical.

Realism isn't the name of the game, playability is. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one in order to get the other, especially since we're working w/a game that has a lot of hard-coded elements.

Regarding the "Long Only" range category, it's one I've considered for Gyrojet weapons. It looks like "Scoped" is the way to go, since this gives an accuracy penalty at close range.

You're right concerning the damage, though, but making Gyrojet weapons supremely efficient at long-range killing would invite the player to clear a map large with "sniper duels", something which short- and medium-ranged opponents would have no effective reply to.

Cheers,

OTB

I think that the long only setting is great for sniper rifles with scopes. Of course its possible to fire a scoped rifle at short range but forcing the player to keep distance when using a sniper rifle is pretty nice. It helps to downplay its power abit and balances up other weapons. I hated the sniper rifle in the RPGs, making scoped shots at targets 2 steps away from me was abit stupid. At one point in FO2 the only weapon i used was the sniper with aimed shot. All other projectile weapons were practically useless coruse I could do at least 30 damage and most of the time 60-80 with criticals.

Forty-six & Two wrote:I think that the long only setting is great for sniper rifles with scopes. Of course its possible to fire a scoped rifle at short range but forcing the player to keep distance when using a sniper rifle is pretty nice. It helps to down play its power abit and balances up other weapons.

I dorked around with using the "Long Only" setting with Rocket Launchers for a bit, but never experimented with it that much. My main concern was getting the AI to stop using the things based solely on target effect and not taking into account the rather devastating effect on the firer.

Forty-six & Two wrote:I hated the sniper rifle in the RPGs, making scoped shots at targets 2 steps away from me was abit stupid. At one point in FO2 the only weapon i used was the sniper with aimed shot. All other projectile weapons were practically useless.

Yes, unless you set up your character to be able to sling gobs and gobs of lead and do as much as you can to up his/her critical hit chances targeted shots are the way to go, and the Sniper Rifle is the king of that little hill throughout most of the game in FO2.

OTB

OnTheBounce wrote:I dorked around with using the "Long Only" setting with Rocket Launchers for a bit, but never experimented with it that much. My main concern was getting the AI to stop using the things based solely on target effect and not taking into account the rather devastating effect on the firer.OTB

Yea, its nice for explosive situations like that . The grenade launcher too. I cant count the times ive seen an enemy in FOT has blown himself and/or another enemy up. Or in the RPGs for that sake, supermutants are supposed to be stupid, but the stupidity most of them show when using rocket launchers amaze me, heh. Its almost like bad action movie scenes where the bad guys kill each other off while the good guy dodges like a neo wannabe.

OnTheBounce wrote:For future reference I'm publishing that info in table format on my site later today.

And I think I'll add a new "Resources" page on my site. Not today, tho

Regarding "long only:" I'm using it on a new weapon I made for Revenge3 -- a broken sniper rifle. I put in the entity's desc_ that the scope of the rifle is stuck in the "zoomed in" view. Pretty spiffy. Now, if only I could make it so that if someone were to use Repair on the gun, it would actually get fixed... hmm...

Neato ammo ideas:

4.5x70mm. "SP ammunition" (Sabot-pin ammo).
Look: Thin, long rifle bullets with a narrow caution-strip (yellow and black lines) around the middle. The projectile on the end is black.
Uses a combination fo high explosives and conventional propellant. Fires a 4.5x25mm rod-shaped projectile made of hardened steel or tungsten-carbide, encased in a hard-plastic (or lead) sabot to preserve the weapon's rifling.

Essentially, it's a poor-man's railgun (20-30 damage normally, Depleted Uranium weapon type; imparts +20 to Critical; long range like a gauss weapons; Fully-automatic weapons dont shoot many shots).

Could even replace the 2mm EC entirely with this and make gauss weapons use it (in that fasion, the explosive propellant only serves to get the shell going, then the magnetic rings accelerate it further), but the ammunition would have to be fairly uncommon until at least 2/3 thru the game.


5x38mm.
Look: Preferrably the actual image used in F1 or F2 for 5mm AP.
Standardized rifle ammunition useful in both PDWs and assault weapons. Only one type - armor piercing. Got the idea from F1 and F2's 5mm assault rifle ammo.

Neato thing for game balance is that the damage done varies widely depending on the weapon you use it in. (-3 damage or so for a handgun / SMG, +5 or more damage for a heavier weapon like a sniper rifle or machinegun).


.55cal Magnum
Look: Shorter, wider version of the .44 Mag AP ammo (in FOT).
Essentially, 14mm shells. 600-grain bullet does terrific damage, but it's a unique ammo type used by a big revolver (the Magnum-55). It could be made to appear earlier in the game, but since it uses a unique ammo type (no other weapons use it) you can limit the ammo count severely and make it expensive.